Moses' body and Samuel rising up at the whim of the Witch of Endor?

GoldenKingGaze · Feb 11, 2023

When looking at the importance of Satan not coming to possess Moses' body and the Witch of Endor being thought to summon from paradise an old Samuel the prophet, I see the matter of familiar spirits deceptions and their damage to the believers then and since then.

1 Samuel 28:3–25
And Jude.

If Satan could have possessed Moses' body, he could have gained a powerful tool to deceive Israel and even ruin them and the Bible. A spirit pretending to be Moses, even Satan himself, for such a great opportunity.

And from King Saul's life, seeing an apparition of the prophet Samuel. Could a witch draw him up from paradise? He still looked old. He was disturbed, he had bad news. I am not sure paradise was actually below. Was this Samuel, before being made young again or was this a familiar spirit? Like Satan pretending to be an angel of light?

Gregory Thompson · Feb 11, 2023

That's a very occult way of looking at it.

GoldenKingGaze · Feb 11, 2023

Michael Collum said:
That's a very occult way of looking at it.

You feel that my question sounds like I am in the occult?

Robert1849 · Feb 12, 2023

So if I read this right, you asking, "could a demonic spirit show up and pretend to be someone else?" My general answer is yes. I am aware of a few times when people have been deceived by so-called "family members" who return from time to time to give them guidance. In one case a woman I know of was absolutely convinced her Christian grandfather was visiting her. The evidence it was not was that this spirit eventually led her away. This is why we need to test the spirits as the Bible teaches. Paul made it clear that if anything shows up and teaches people to follow another christ, may it be eternally condemned.

Gregory Thompson · Feb 12, 2023

GoldenKingGaze said:
You feel that my question sounds like I am in the occult?

Not necessarily. Possibly you witness to people of this area of interest, and this was one of their questions.

However, assuming the bible text is incorrect off the bat, and forming a theology around it .. is pretty suspect.

Sabertooth · Feb 12, 2023

Concerning Samuel, I don't believe that God would have included that story in His Bible if it were just an illegal act of necromancy rather than an exceptional, true appearance. Samuel's words are treated as valid in that passage. Had he been an impostor-demon, the whole passage would have been unreliable.

Sabertooth · Feb 12, 2023

GoldenKingGaze said:
When looking at the importance of Satan not coming to possess Moses' body...

I don't get that from Jude v.9, AmpC.

It seems to be more about concealing Moses' grave site.

GoldenKingGaze · Feb 13, 2023

Sabertooth said:
Concerning Samuel, I don't believe that God would have included that story in His Bible if it were just an illegal act of necromancy rather than an exceptional, true appearance. Samuel's words are treated as valid in that passage. Had he been an impostor-demon, the whole passage would have been unreliable.

The snake sounded reliable to Eve. The message was condemnation not only for Saul.

In Jesus' principle from the analogy of a house divided against itself and Beelzebub Luke 11:14-23, a witch does not serve God and produce scripture and doesn't access prophets spirits as well as the dead. And which dead spirit do they really access? They cannot really know truth. The spring is either salt or fresh water.

Sabertooth · Feb 13, 2023

GoldenKingGaze said:
In Jesus' principle from the analogy of a house divided against itself and Beelzebub Luke 11:14-23, a witch does not serve God and produce scripture and doesn't access prophets spirits as well as the dead. And which dead spirit do they really access? They cannot really know truth. The spring is either salt or fresh water.

Samuel's appearance shocked the witch; it was not business as usual. Had Samuel's words been "conventional" necromancy, their presence in the Bible would contradict its prohibition of such. The only relevance to that story would be that Saul sought out the counsel of demons; not what they actually had to say.

PS: I am not married to the idea. That is just my current opinion.

GoldenKingGaze · Feb 13, 2023

Sabertooth said:
Samuel's appearance shocked the witch; it was not business as usual. Had Samuel's words been "conventional" necromancy, their presence in the Bible would contradict its prohibition of such. The only relevance to that story would be that Saul sought out the counsel of demons; not what they actually had to say.

PS: I am not married to the idea. That is just my current opinion.

There with Eve in Genesis are words from Satan, and in Job, written by Moses who blocked necromancy. Also in the Gospel, spirits calling Jesus the Holy One of God... but only Jesus could see into the hearts and tell the truth from a lie in an evil spirit. Otherwise it is like pastors in deliverance ministry asking spirits questions and taking them at their words. Questions like what is your name and how many of you are there? Folly! I don't know but think to lean towards the apparition being a spirit in disguise. Nothing can be determined through the opinion of the witch. I doubt she or any necromancer can contact holy spirits without repentance or moving towards repentance. Or they meet an evangelist or there is intercession.

lismore · Feb 22, 2023

GoldenKingGaze said:
When looking at the importance of Satan not coming to possess Moses' body and the Witch of Endor being thought to summon from paradise an old Samuel the prophet, I see the matter of familiar spirits deceptions and their damage to the believers then and since then.

Hello! I think those two examples you presented have something very unique and specific going on.

Because Moses sinned in the wilderness by disobeying God and striking the rock instead of speaking to it he was told he would die and not enter the promised land. The soul that sins shall die.

Deuteronomy 32: 51 because you broke faith with me in the midst of the people of Israel at the waters of Meribah-kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin, and because you did not treat me as holy in the midst of the people of Israel. 52 For you shall see the land before you, but you shall not go there, into the land that I am giving to the people of Israel.”

However that is not the end of the story. Revelation 11 talks of two witnesses who by the description of their acts are Moses and Elijah. The turning of the water into blood and striking the earth with plagues referenced in that chapter speak of Moses, if you recall the book of Exodus. Therefore although Moses had to die for disobeying God his body is still required for when he and Elijah return to Israel during the Tribulation as the two witnesses. Satan knew that which was why he was after Moses' body, a futile attempt to thwart God's plan.

Regarding Samuel. In 1 Samuel 15 King Saul disobeyed God by not carrying out his instructions regarding Agag and the Amalekites. Saul and Samuel had been close, the first King of Israel and the great prophet of God. But Samuel prophesied that The Lord had rejected Saul as King and the text in ch 15, various versions, also states that Samuel 'would not see Saul again until the day of his death'. In the passive meaning of this phrase at a minimum it shows that it was definitely Samuel who appeared. In an active sense it means the meeting was expected. Saul had not heard from the Lord through dreams, Urrim, or prophets, he had always spoken to God through Saul. On the night Saul went to see the witch according to the Jewish calendar it was now the day of his death. Due to the bad military situation Saul was expecting death and already knew that he would see Samuel again on the day of his death. So as the scripture said on that day Samuel would see Saul again, dead or not, to give the same prophecy of Saul's doom one final time. As Samuel said 'Today you and your sons will be with me'. Despite his failings, the Lord was faithful to Saul, he went to Abraham's Bosom with Samuel.

Today I think familiar spirits trouble those with an involvement in the occult. Some believers I know had involvement in the occult before they were saved. This of course could not be prevented but now must be remedied urgently and the bible explains how. I have also known some 'believers' who got involved deeply in the occult as 'believers'- foolishness in the extreme. It's all about consent- resist the devil and he will flee. But those who invite Satan in are on very dangerous ground indeed. Ouija boards, seances, necromancy etc, people should be admonished to stay away from these things. Don't get familiar with any spirit except the Holy Spirit.

God Bless You

GoldenKingGaze · Feb 22, 2023

lismore said:
Hello! I think those two examples you presented have something very unique and specific going on.

Because Moses sinned in the wilderness by disobeying God and striking the rock instead of speaking to it he was told he would die and not enter the promised land. The soul that sins shall die.

Deuteronomy 32: 51 because you broke faith with me in the midst of the people of Israel at the waters of Meribah-kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin, and because you did not treat me as holy in the midst of the people of Israel. 52 For you shall see the land before you, but you shall not go there, into the land that I am giving to the people of Israel.”

However that is not the end of the story. Revelation 11 talks of two witnesses who by the description of their acts are Moses and Elijah. The turning of the water into blood and striking the earth with plagues referenced in that chapter speak of Moses, if you recall the book of Exodus. Therefore although Moses had to die for disobeying God his body is still required for when he and Elijah return to Israel during the Tribulation as the two witnesses. Satan knew that which was why he was after Moses' body, a futile attempt to thwart God's plan.

Regarding Samuel. In 1 Samuel 15 King Saul disobeyed God by not carrying out his instructions regarding Agag and the Amalekites. Saul and Samuel had been close, the first King of Israel and the great prophet of God. But Samuel prophesied that The Lord had rejected Saul as King and the text in ch 15, various versions, also states that Samuel 'would not see Saul again until the day of his death'. In the passive meaning of this phrase at a minimum it shows that it was definitely Samuel who appeared. In an active sense it means the meeting was expected. Saul had not heard from the Lord through dreams, Urrim, or prophets, he had always spoken to God through Saul. On the night Saul went to see the witch according to the Jewish calendar it was now the day of his death. Due to the bad military situation Saul was expecting death and already knew that he would see Samuel again on the day of his death. So as the scripture said on that day Samuel would see Saul again, dead or not, to give the same prophecy of Saul's doom one final time. As Samuel said 'Today you and your sons will be with me'. Despite his failings, the Lord was faithful to Saul, he went to Abraham's Bosom with Samuel.

Today I think familiar spirits trouble those with an involvement in the occult. Some believers I know had involvement in the occult before they were saved. This of course could not be prevented but now must be remedied urgently and the bible explains how. I have also known some 'believers' who got involved deeply in the occult as 'believers'- foolishness in the extreme. It's all about consent- resist the devil and he will flee. But those who invite Satan in are on very dangerous ground indeed. Ouija boards, seances, necromancy etc, people should be admonished to stay away from these things. Don't get familiar with any spirit except the Holy Spirit.

God Bless You

I am, not sure, from grammar it looks like Samuel was speaking of his own death, and the literal translations says Saul consulted a medium known to have a familiar spirit. And it only knew was was already common knowledge. And said Saul and his sons would be in paradise. Was Saul saved?

lismore · Mar 9, 2023

GoldenKingGaze said:
Was Saul saved?

He went to the same place as Samuel. The gospel says:

Luke 16: 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

The righteous and wicked were separated after death. God Bless

GoldenKingGaze · Mar 10, 2023

lismore said:
He went to the same place as Samuel. The gospel says:

Luke 16: 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

The righteous and wicked were separated after death. God Bless

Yes there was a gulf between Abraham and Lazarus, the saved, and the rich man.

I am not sure which side Saul went to.

lismore · Mar 10, 2023

GoldenKingGaze said:
Yes there was a gulf between Abraham and Lazarus, the saved, and the rich man.

I am not sure which side Saul went to.

The same side as Samuel, otherwise they would have been on opposite sides of the gulf and not together. God Bless

jiminpa · Mar 27, 2023

lismore said:
The same side as Samuel, otherwise they would have been on opposite sides of the gulf and not together. God Bless

Where does it say that they were? I can't find it.

Sabertooth · Mar 27, 2023

jiminpa said:
Where does it say that they were? I can't find it.

It is inferred in Jesus' parable of Lazurus & The Rich Man.

GoldenKingGaze · Mar 28, 2023

Sabertooth said:
It is inferred in Jesus' parable of Lazurus & The Rich Man.

Was it that easy to enter paradise? Even Saul went there?

Sabertooth · Mar 28, 2023

GoldenKingGaze said:
Was it that easy to enter paradise? Even Saul went there?

I do not know.
Perhaps his anointing was his ticket. Moses was punished for missteps, but he was still thought to be in good standing with God otherwise.

Moses' body and Samuel rising up at the whim of the Witch of Endor?

1 Samuel 28:3–25, was this actual Samuel or a familiar spirit, a cunning deceiver, a condemner/warp

It was Samuel

It was a familiar spirit, of Satan

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