Questions on Intercession of the Saints

IceJad said:

I'm a Lutheran but rather consider myself a non-denominational Christian. So I don't hold any denominational teachings strictly. But there is one aspect of praying to the saints for intercession that baffles me. I know Catholics say that asking the saints for intercession is similar to requesting a friend to pray for you. Saints are alive in paradise and can hear requests from earth therefore it is acceptable to request for intercession.

Here are a few things I just can't comprehend and hope that someone here can better clarify.

1. We know for certain people who are saints like the disciples therefore invoking them are pretty much "safe" in prayers, but how sure are you when you invoke later, less well known and regional saints in prayer? Wouldn't it be presumptive about their afterlife status. I don't want to sound mean but how sure that these saints are even in paradise?

2. If we work on the basis that everyone in paradise is alive and in communion, why not just invoke relatives or friends who had passed away to intercede since they know us better? Or must intercession be only permissible by saints not regular believers? If only saints can intercede then wouldn't asking an earthly family member or friend to pray invalid?

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It is not only the Catholics. Prayers for the intercession of the saints is one of the oldest traditions of Christianity and is practiced by all of the Apostolic Churches. And the only saints invoked in prayer are those reasonably believed to have lived righteous enough lives that they have passed into the presence of God. One might pray for the intercession of most any departed Christian in the hope that those prayers are answered but -as you pointed out- one never knows for certain. I believe that is part of the Roman Church's canonization process. Some miracle must be attributed to a deceased Christian in order for them to be regarded as a saint. But at some point someone has to pray for their intercession first.

As an orthodox Christian, having read the lives of Saints, commemorated them, and asked them for intercession and particular gifts, I have remained very much impressed and overly satisfied. It is probably one of the things you have to try. It's something mystical more than anything perhaps.

IceJad said:

I'm a Lutheran but rather consider myself a non-denominational Christian. So I don't hold any denominational teachings strictly. But there is one aspect of praying to the saints for intercession that baffles me. I know Catholics say that asking the saints for intercession is similar to requesting a friend to pray for you. Saints are alive in paradise and can hear requests from earth therefore it is acceptable to request for intercession.

Here are a few things I just can't comprehend and hope that someone here can better clarify.

1. We know for certain people who are saints like the disciples therefore invoking them are pretty much "safe" in prayers, but how sure are you when you invoke later, less well known and regional saints in prayer? Wouldn't it be presumptive about their afterlife status. I don't want to sound mean but how sure that these saints are even in paradise?

2. If we work on the basis that everyone in paradise is alive and in communion, why not just invoke relatives or friends who had passed away to intercede since they know us better? Or must intercession be only permissible by saints not regular believers? If only saints can intercede then wouldn't asking an earthly family member or friend to pray invalid?

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1. Personal and communal experience seems to be a factor. There are stories of people who see or experience the intercession of a saint, then a following develops, and eventually they are formally glorified.

There are alot of unofficial saints in Catholic and Orthodox countries. Oscar Romero was venerated by laypeople in El Salvador long before he was canonized by Rome.

2. They do do that, too. At least if the person was known for being pious and dying a servant of God.

In the Orthodox Church we have a great deal of confidence in the reality of the intercession of the Saints due to the innumerable miracles which have occured through their prayers, their relics and icons. There is no question of their efficacy for us.

While Protestants (except maybe a few Anglicans), don't seek the intercession of saints, sometimes they have similar experiences, they just aren't formally preached. I was at a memorial service yesterday where people talked about dreams or spiritual experiences they had of the person who died.

I suspect this is where the notion of the intercession of saints comes from- not from kerygma or open proclamation, but from religious experience.

IceJad said:

Is this limited to verified saints or does it extend to family and friends as well in Orthodoxy?

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Only if God has specifically revealed that they are Saints.

IceJad said:

Is this limited to verified saints or does it extend to family and friends as well in Orthodoxy?

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God has granted miracles through prayers to those who have not officially been declared saints by The Church. In fact, a miracle is one of the things needed in order to be considered for sainthood.

IceJad said:

So in essence if you're confident in an individual has entered Heaven, you many request for intercession from him/her. Is that understanding correct?

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Sort of, but realize that there are steps a person goes through to become a saint. The first is Servant of God ( one who lived a heroic virtuous life). The second step is beatification (a substantiated miracle being done by God through the intersession of the person), and beatification (a second substantiated miracle).

IceJad said:

Also I want to ask if it is not too much, why is intercession of the saints such an important thing? I get the saints are alive and in communion aspect but not the reason as to why. I read that it is old church tradition however I believe such traditions are not a hold over from Judaism, as Jews at least from their view point don't pray to their prophets for intercession.

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I think the main point is that scripture tells us that through Baptism, we become members of His Body. Scripture also tells us death does not break that bond. Scripture also tells us that if something happens to one member, the whole body is affected. All Baptized are what we call the Communion of Saints.

IceJad said:

So in essence if you're confident in an individual has entered Heaven, you many request for intercession from him/her. Is that understanding correct?

Also I want to ask if it is not too much, why is intercession of the saints such an important thing? I get the saints are alive and in communion aspect but not the reason as to why. I read that it is old church tradition however I believe such traditions are not a hold over from Judaism, as Jews at least from their view point don't pray to their prophets for intercession.

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To add to what Concrete said, is from the liturgical perspective. The early church saw things as the ekklesia or assembly rather than individuals. Hence when we read of baptisms in the Scriptures, we read of how entire households were baptized. In all the various liturgies, the prayers are reference the ekklesia and not just "me".

Catholic start of the Eucharist prayers: ... Fulfilling your will and gaining for you a holy people, he stretched out his hands as he endured his Passion, so as to break the bonds of death and manifest the resurrection. And so, with the Angels and all the Saints we declare your glory, as with one voice we acclaim:

Orthodox: Look upon us, O God, and have regard for this our worship, and accept it as You accepted Abel's offering, Noah's sacrifice, Abraham's whole burnt offering, the ministrations of Moses and Aaron, and Samuel's peace offerings. And as You accepted this true worship from Your holy Apostles, so also accept these gifts from the hands of us sinners, in Your goodness, O Lord.

Lutheran:
Therefore with angels and chief angels and with all groups in heaven! We praise and revere Your glorious name, always praising Thee and singing:

So within the liturgy, even for Lutherans who do not ask specific saints for prayers, there is a explicit statement that in the liturgy, we worship with the angels and saints in heaven and with the people gathered around us, not only here, but around the world.

Alexsei Khomiakov, a Russian layman, stated most eloquently, "We know that when any one of us falls he falls alone; but no one is saved alone. He who is saved is saved in the Church, as a member of her, and in unity with all her other members. If any one believes, he is in the communion of faith; if he loves, he is in the communion of love; if he prays, he is in the communion of prayer. Wherefore no one can rest his hope on his own prayers, and every one who prays asks the whole Church for intercession, not as if he had doubts of the intercession of Christ, the one Advocate, but in the assurance that the whole Church ever prays for all her members. All the angels pray for us, the apostles, martyrs, and patriarchs, and above them all, the Mother of our Lord, and this holy unity is the true life of the Church."

Romans chapter 8, the holy spirit intercede for the saints, the Election, when praying to jesus and Godhead. God wants to hear from your heart. Hosea chapter 6, God wants our love. God doesn't want chanting or lip talk. First Corinthians chapter 2. God's election have holy spirit. Those with free will have spirit of slumber. Those who are carnal minded can't understand spirtual things. Why??. Because its spirtualty Discerned. The natural man can't understand spirtual things. You need the holy spirit to understand. Only Jesus can give spirtual sight. Some people have spirit of stupor for their protection. Why would God's Elect, the saint's have holy spirit. Because in the first earth age, satan led a rebellion against God, one third followed satan in first earth age. Gods Elect stood against satan and the rebellion. God judged the election on the spot. The election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. Documentation, ephesians chapter 1, first Peter chapter 1, romans chapter 11, and chapter 8. Romans chapter 8, sometimes we don't know what to pray for. But the holy spirit intercede. You need the holy spirit. I documented this. How do I get the holy spirit??. Only Jesus can grant the holy spirit. I'm servant of God.

IceJad said:

I'm a Lutheran but rather consider myself a non-denominational Christian. So I don't hold any denominational teachings strictly. But there is one aspect of praying to the saints for intercession that baffles me. I know Catholics say that asking the saints for intercession is similar to requesting a friend to pray for you. Saints are alive in paradise and can hear requests from earth therefore it is acceptable to request for intercession.

Here are a few things I just can't comprehend and hope that someone here can better clarify.

1. We know for certain people who are saints like the disciples therefore invoking them are pretty much "safe" in prayers, but how sure are you when you invoke later, less well known and regional saints in prayer? Wouldn't it be presumptive about their afterlife status. I don't want to sound mean but how sure that these saints are even in paradise?

2. If we work on the basis that everyone in paradise is alive and in communion, why not just invoke relatives or friends who had passed away to intercede since they know us better? Or must intercession be only permissible by saints not regular believers? If only saints can intercede then wouldn't asking an earthly family member or friend to pray invalid?

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Part of the answer is that one can know for sure that the Saints are in Heaven, just as one can know that Christ is. Devotion to a particular Saint helps one to know that Saint to some degree, as a result of experiencing the grace of God - Who is in them, and they in God - through them.

One can know with very solid certainty that certain people are so full of Christ, so utterly transfigured, transformed, renewed and irradiated by Him, that it is laughable to suggest that they are not with Him. To say that they are not, when they are so like Him, is to talk unmeaning nonsense.

All souls in Heaven are Saints. God, Who is glorious in His Saints, by His Spirit of Holiness leads people to have a devotional "attraction" to particular Saints. There can be many reasons for this. Ties of flesh and blood are less important than the union in Christ of those who are members of His Body, the Church, and who live by and in His Spirit.

Good day,

I am not a member of the Roman Catholic denomination... so

I do not need any Saints the very God who created is sufficient for me, I do not pray to things that have been created.

In this regards I believe Lactantius is correct: CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Institutes, Book II (Lactantius)


But if it appears that these religious rites are vain in so many ways as I have shown, it is manifest that those who either make prayers to the dead, or venerate the earth, or make over their souls to unclean spirits, do not act as becomes men, and that they will suffer punishment for their impiety and guilt, who, rebelling against God, the Father of the human race, have undertaken inexpiable rites, and violated every sacred law. - Lactantius (The Divine Institutes, 2:18)

Also when Clement of Alexandria Likens Pray to Worship in The Stromata I believe Scripture bares that out.

In Him

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

In this regards I believe Lactantius is correct: CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Institutes, Book II (Lactantius)


But if it appears that these religious rites are vain in so many ways as I have shown, it is manifest that those who either make prayers to the dead, or venerate the earth, or make over their souls to unclean spirits, do not act as becomes men, and that they will suffer punishment for their impiety and guilt, who, rebelling against God, the Father of the human race, have undertaken inexpiable rites, and violated every sacred law. - Lactantius (The Divine Institutes, 2:18)

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In the above excerpt, Lactantius is speaking of the pagan religions praying to their dead (who did not know Christ). He is not speaking of Christians who have died in Christ. If you read the last book, he clearly suggests that those struggle to increase in Christian virtue will become immortal.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day,

I am not a member of the Roman Catholic denomination... so

I do not need any Saints the very God who created is sufficient for me, I do not pray to things that have been created.

In this regards I believe Lactantius is correct: CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Institutes, Book II (Lactantius)


But if it appears that these religious rites are vain in so many ways as I have shown, it is manifest that those who either make prayers to the dead, or venerate the earth, or make over their souls to unclean spirits, do not act as becomes men, and that they will suffer punishment for their impiety and guilt, who, rebelling against God, the Father of the human race, have undertaken inexpiable rites, and violated every sacred law. - Lactantius (The Divine Institutes, 2:18)

Also when Clement of Alexandria Likens Pray to Worship in The Stromata I believe Scripture bares that out.

In Him

Bill

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The Catholic Church has no denominations. People have free will and are not forced into taking the paths that God has provided us, as Catholic do.

Valletta said:

The Catholic Church has no denominations. People have free will and are not forced into taking the paths that God has provided us, as Catholic do.

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Good day, Valletta

I would disagree the Roman Catholic Church is a Denomination and is categorized as so.

The source is the two-volume World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett, Kurian, and Johnson; Oxford University Press).

World Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed [sic] of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries (Vol. I, p. 16).



The WCE then goes on to break down “world Christianity” into the following broad categories:

• Independents: 22,000 denominations
• Protestants: 9000 denominations
• Marginals: 1600 denominations
• Orthodox: 781 denominations
• Catholics: 242 denominations
• Anglicans: 168 denominations

In Him,

Bill