Conflict of Conscience vs Scripture

zippy2006 · Mar 26, 2023

durangodawood said:
I see it the other way round: polemicist believers trying to bend their opponents position ("I dont believe in gods") into something unreasonable ("I know theres no gods").

We have addressed this at length in the past. Most recently, see my (since deleted) post, quoted here. The atheist's tactic is an ad hoc attempt to place the burden of proof on their interlocutor, and this silliness is not something that any philosopher or philosophical atheist partakes in. I have also addressed the irrational view that negative claims are "unreasonable," which can be found among atheists and theists alike. The most recent instance [...was apparently part of a now-deleted thread :doh:

].

durangodawood · Mar 26, 2023

zippy2006 said:
We have addressed this at length in the past. Most recently, see my (since deleted) post, quoted here. The atheist's tactic is an ad hoc attempt to place the burden of proof on their interlocutor, and this silliness is not something that any philosopher or philosophical atheist partakes in. I have also addressed the irrational view that negative claims are "unreasonable," which can be found among atheists and theists alike. The most recent instance [...was apparently part of a now-deleted thread ].

Typically burden of proof is a non issue. Its all about what you believe. The only way to demonstrate that is by how you live.

As for some miniscule set of people who say "I know there are no gods".... well, who cares. No good is served in moving their little side show to center stage.

zippy2006 · Mar 26, 2023

durangodawood said:
Typically burden of proof is a non issue. Its all about what you believe. The only way to demonstrate that is by how you live.

As for some miniscule set of people who say "I know there are no gods".... well, who cares. No good is served in moving their little side show to center stage.

Your epistemology is problematic. Beliefs and known propositions are not hermetically sealed compartments. If you believe there is no God and act as if there is no God then you hold to the proposition that there is no God, and are effectively claiming knowledge of that proposition. Of course not demonstrative knowledge, but rather, evidentiary knowledge. Read the Reddit article I cited if you want an atheist to explain this same thing to you (link).

Runningman · Apr 22, 2023

Rivga said:
A question for Theists, given the Scriptures of most of the major religions are old and given that morality* has moved on since most of the scriptures were wrote.

How do you bridge the gap between what is clearly in the your scriptures and your Conscience?

For example Homosexuality - whilst I realise a lot of Theists still disagree with this and there is no conflict between Scripture and Conscience for them, but for many Theists in the west there is clearly a conflict (see Ireland historic vote).
Or another easy example is Slavery, which is significantly less divisive than homosexuality, now but it was not at a certain point.

*this is an assertion, but one based on evidence of the change in societal behaviours, Laws, justice systems, you get the picture.

It's a matter of morality being objective, not a matter of subjective conscience. Since God the Father is eternal and unchanging then morals are unchanging and objective. Since all of our consciences may be a bit different, it isn't a matter of one disagreeing with changing human societal norms, but a matter of one agreeing with God the Father.

Landon Caeli · Jul 2, 2023

Rivga said:
A question for Theists, given the Scriptures of most of the major religions are old and given that morality* has moved on since most of the scriptures were wrote.

How do you bridge the gap between what is clearly in the your scriptures and your Conscience?

For example Homosexuality - whilst I realise a lot of Theists still disagree with this and there is no conflict between Scripture and Conscience for them, but for many Theists in the west there is clearly a conflict (see Ireland historic vote).
Or another easy example is Slavery, which is significantly less divisive than homosexuality, now but it was not at a certain point.

*this is an assertion, but one based on evidence of the change in societal behaviours, Laws, justice systems, you get the picture.

I use the teachings of the CCC as the final authority on matters of morality, but I do enjoy reading the bible too.

1795 "Conscience is man's most secret core, and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths" (GS 16).

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 6

zippy2006 · Jul 2, 2023

Landon Caeli said:
I use the teachings of the CCC as the final authority on matters of morality, but I do enjoy reading the bible too.

1795 "Conscience is man's most secret core, and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths" (GS 16).

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 6

1799 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.
1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.
1802 The Word of God is a light for our path. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. This is how moral conscience is formed.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Landon Caeli · Jul 3, 2023

zippy2006 said:
1799 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.

1802 The Word of God is a light for our path. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. This is how moral conscience is formed.

(Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Yes but the point is that we are not supposed to suppress our conscience, but rather, inform it.

...To do heinous things (spitting on gays, or keeping slaves) requires the suppression of the conscience, and can even coincide with misconstrued scripture, or "reasons".

Landon Caeli · Jul 3, 2023

There's quite a few verses in scripture that can actually *harm* a persons faith, especially if he ignores his conscience.

For example, Jesus did not disrespect his own mother by scolding her at the wedding of Cana. Our conscience should tell us that. Jesus also does not call for us to leave our deceased relatives where they lay, without proper burial, when he says "let the dead bury their own dead"... Our conscience tells us that Jesus would not want that, even though He does not say otherwise.

...We know this based on us having an informed conscience, and by that, we know what is right and wrong.

zippy2006 · Jul 3, 2023

Landon Caeli said:
Yes but the point is that we are not supposed to suppress our conscience, but rather, inform it.

...To do heinous things (spitting on gays, or keeping slaves) requires the suppression of the conscience, and can even coincide with misconstrued scripture, or "reasons".

I am not convinced that you have any understanding of the Catholic teaching on conscience. For example, slave-owners are not necessarily suppressing their conscience. Conscience is a judgment of reason (1796) which can itself be erroneous (1801).

Landon Caeli said:
...We know this based on us having an informed conscience, and by that, we know what is right and wrong.

Everyone thinks they have a well-formed conscience, and they are often wrong. If your conscience contradicts scripture, then it is not well-formed (1802).

Landon Caeli · Jul 3, 2023

zippy2006 said:
I am not convinced that you have any understanding of the Catholic teaching on conscience. For example, slave-owners are not necessarily suppressing their conscience. Conscience is a judgment of reason (1796) which can itself be erroneous (1801).

Let me help you to understand properly. For someone to own a slave, he must inherently disregard the Word of God, found in: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (Luke 6:31, Matthew 7:12).

...In order to own a slave, someone must suppress this knowledge within his own conscience, therefore, we see the suppression of the conscience in slave ownership.

...Similarly, we saw Jihadi john saw off the head of an American journalist on a recorded video years ago. He must have known that to be an immoral act according to his faith, but when someone allows themselves to "suppress their own conscience", they are capable of doing very heinous things.

Landon Caeli · Jul 3, 2023

I'm leery of anyone who downplays the role of the conscience, as it is not only un-Catholic to do so, but is also gravely dangerous.

1777 Moral conscience,48 present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil.49 It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

zippy2006 · Jul 3, 2023

Landon Caeli said:
Let me help you to understand properly. For someone to own a slave, he must inherently disregard the Word of God...

Neither the Bible nor Catholicism are entirely opposed to slavery.

See, for example: "Development or Reversal?" by Avery Cardinal Dulles.

Landon Caeli · Jul 3, 2023

zippy2006 said:
Neither the Bible nor Catholicism are entirely opposed to slavery.

See, for example: "Development or Reversal?" by Avery Cardinal Dulles.

The bible is not opposed to polygamy either, in fact for a time, God allowed the Jews to have multiple wives... But the prudent man does not have multiple wives, nor does he own slaves, as his moral conscience guides him toward a more humble existence.

Landon Caeli · Jul 3, 2023

For reference purposes:

beginning in Chapter 4 of Genesis, which relates that Lamech, a descendant of Cain, took two wives. Later we learn that Abraham took a second wife, Hagar, after his first wife Sarah failed to conceive. (Sarah later bore him a son, Isaac, the only one of the biblical patriarchs that did not take multiple wives.) Jacob had two wives, Leah and Rachel, and had children with two other women as well, Bilha and Zilpa, though their status is somewhat ambiguous.

Later in the Bible we find that King David had children with multiple wives while his son, Solomon, had 700 wives. In the Book of I Samuel we learn about Elkanah, who had two wives, Peninah and Hannah

Polygamy in Judaism | My Jewish Learning

Polygamy was a common practice in Judaism since ancient times, though it has become exceedingly rare in the modern era. ...

www.myjewishlearning.com

Landon Caeli · Jul 3, 2023

zippy2006 said:
This is just another unsupported opinion. There is no knowledge or grounding in Scripture, the Catechism, Catholic tradition, or even history or moral philosophy.

Wrong again!

The following are indeed grounded in scripture:

“Therefore a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife (not wives) and they shall become one flesh.”

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

...And prudence is a well known tradition within the Catholic Church:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Prudence

One of the four cardinal virtues

www.newadvent.org

Landon Caeli · Jul 3, 2023

@zippy2006, do you reject or accept the traditions of "virtue" within the Catholic Church? I only ask because your posts strike me as slightly Protestant leaning.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Virtue

According to its etymology the word virtue (Latin virtus) signifies manliness or courage

www.newadvent.org

zippy2006 · Jul 4, 2023

Landon Caeli said:
@zippy2006, do you reject or accept the traditions of "virtue" within the Catholic Church? I only ask because your posts strike me as slightly Protestant leaning.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Virtue

According to its etymology the word virtue (Latin virtus) signifies manliness or courage

www.newadvent.org

You are in the business of labeling. "I say X because I am virtuous and have a well-formed conscience." This is just a claim, a label you are placing upon yourself. It is not an argument, a demonstration, evidence, etc.

Landon Caeli · Jul 4, 2023

zippy2006 said:
You are in the business of labeling. "I say X because I am virtuous and have a well-formed conscience." This is just a claim, a label you are placing upon yourself. It is not an argument, a demonstration, evidence, etc.

Projection! ...To say that *I* am the one into labeling.

In Truth, you have decided 'for me', that this is what I think (considering I never said it), and I wonder if this same type of 'deciding for others' would be the kind used in deciding who is or isn't worthy of being a slave.

...Would I make a good slave in your opinion?

Landon Caeli · Jul 4, 2023

I've given the Word of God, that we are told to "do unto others as we would have them do unto us".

Fantine · Jul 5, 2023

Every major religion has the golden rule enshrined as its basis--a sure sign that God has planted it in the hearts of all humankind.

Conflict of Conscience vs Scripture

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