The "coming of the son of man" already took place?

Halbhh said:

Ah!

Here's a piece of what we need to notice about that "1rst "coming, the one after the (unexpected to the disciples) resurrection.

"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." -- Matthew 28, after the resurrection.

Not a small thing! This is Christ in the full power of His Kingdom.

I think I just now am learning the bigger import of this. The gospels are so full of meaning, there is so much, it's easy to miss things. He says "All authority".

Click to expand...

tampasteve said:
There is a pretty good article at the link below, but in short it says:
Is there a Bible contradiction in Matthew 10:23?
Others say it refers to the Holy Spirit coming, being a part of the Trinity. There are other explanations, but in short there are a few things it could mean that make sense.

Oseas said:

Yes, it makes sense, really, JESUS came in the fourth Day of God's week or 4,000 years after the creation of the first Adam. But the coming of the person of the Holy Spirit was previously determined to be in the seventh and last Day of the week of God, ie in the seventh and last millennium in which we have already entered and we are living. He is also a son of man, as was the prhets and also JESUS, It is he who appeared in the midst of the seven candlesticks (Rev.1:13). Multitudes of believers do not distinguish the person of the Holy Spirit from JESUS because of their similarities. He a warrior and his identity we can see in Rev. 19:11-16. He is the Paraclete, he is the Comfort, and about him JESUS said: (John 16:13-15): 13-He shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and will show it unto you.

Click to expand...

It is very hard to speak of GOD's mysteries - the mysteries of the Person of the Word - our GOD.

1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days (last two days or last two millenniums) spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of His Person, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on High:

As all Christians believers know, in His prayer to the Father- who is the Person of the Word - JESUS said: John 17:v.4-5 -

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE the world was.

JESUS, even before the world was/existed, had had a great glory with the Father Himself as He has above revealed by His own word, but who is the Ancient of days-Daniel 7:v.22? Is not him the Paraclete, the Comfort, according the promise of JESUS two thousand years ago, as is written in John 15:26 and 16:v.12-15? Take a look.

Here's who the Ancient of days is

It is very hard to speak of GOD's mysteries - the mysteries of the Person of the Word - our GOD. 1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days (last two days or last two millenniums) spoken unto us by His Son...

purebibleforum.com

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him), and LORD of lords

Oseas said:

tampasteve said:
There is a pretty good article at the link below, but in short it says:
Is there a Bible contradiction in Matthew 10:23?
Others say it refers to the Holy Spirit coming, being a part of the Trinity. There are other explanations, but in short there are a few things it could mean that make sense.

It is very hard to speak of GOD's mysteries - the mysteries of the Person of the Word - our GOD.

1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days (last two days or last two millenniums) spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of His Person, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on High:

As all Christians believers know, in His prayer to the Father- who is the Person of the Word - JESUS said: John 17:v.4-5 -

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE the world was.

JESUS, even before the world was/existed, had had a great glory with the Father Himself as He has above revealed by His own word, but who is the Ancient of days-Daniel 7:v.22? Is not him the Paraclete, the Comfort, according the promise of JESUS two thousand years ago, as is written in John 15:26 and 16:v.12-15? Take a look.

Here's who the Ancient of days is

It is very hard to speak of GOD's mysteries - the mysteries of the Person of the Word - our GOD. 1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days (last two days or last two millenniums) spoken unto us by His Son...

purebibleforum.com

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him), and LORD of lords

Click to expand...

While the questions about Matthew 10:23 may come up for Jews more particularly, to me it always seemed naturally when reading the verse to say for one thing (not every aspect, but surely one aspect) that:

1) they could not have enough time to reach all the little villages of Israel, or even distant larger towns...not enough time in this time He would give them, before Jesus would rejoin them -- in that time before Jerusalem....

and

2) and in fact reaching every child of Israel would not be completely done even in their lifetimes....

and there may be more of course, but these 2 things came immediately.

This just seemed the natural reading. And you can see that supported in commentaries (such as Ellicott and the Pulpit Commentary) like after the translations here:

Halbhh said:

While the questions about Matthew 10:23 may come up for Jews more particularly, to me it always seemed naturally when reading the verse to say for one thing (not every aspect, but surely one aspect) that:

1) they could not have enough time to reach all the little villages of Israel, or even distant larger towns...not enough time in this time He would give them, before Jesus would rejoin them -- in that time before Jerusalem....

and

2) and in fact reaching every child of Israel would not be completely done even in their lifetimes....

and there may be more of course, but these 2 things came immediately.

This just seemed the natural reading. And you can see that supported in commentaries (such as Ellicott and the Pulpit Commentary) like after the translations here:

Matthew 10:23 - Sheep among Wolves

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

biblehub.com

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Hi
Thank you for your reply

Yes, that biblical description is very interesting, and it is also surprising / amazing, how to understand the command of JESUS to avoid preaching the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom in the city of Samaritans? I have my own thoughts and interpretations on JESUS speech, as follow:

On the other hand, as you know, the testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy. The verse says JESUS had called unto Him his twelve disciples, and said to them:

1 - Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and
2 - into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not;
3 - but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel;
4 - and as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Analysing the sequence above, what I understand in this first moment, is as follow:

1 - Go not the way of the Gentiles
because in that first moment the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom must be preached FIRST to the lost sheep of the TRUE house of Israel - two tribes - Judah and Benjamin-, that is really the house of David -1 Kings 12:16 and 19;

2 - into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not;
why? because of their roots after Solomon death. Ten of the twelve tribes of Israel withdrew their allegiance to the house of David after Solomon's death (JESUS is of the David's house), then they proclaimed the idolater Jeroboam their king, forming the northern kingdom of Israel (10 tribes) in Samaria, and the King made two calves of gold, and said unto Israel (10 tribes): It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.-1 Kings 12. Remember: JESUS said to a woman of Samaria, give me to drink. Then the woman said unto JESUS: How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

3 - but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel;
why? Because as JESUS said: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel - Matthew 15:24. And Peter Apostle preached to the Jews in the Temple of Jerusalem, saying to them: Unto you FIRST God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities- Acts 3:26

4 - and as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of heaven is at hand.
GOD the Father had promised to Abraham that in him all the nations woul be blessed. Thus JESUS , after His resurrection said to the disciples: Matthew 28:19-20 ;
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the END of the world. Amen. (The time of the END of the world arrived -the time of sorrows started - Matthew 24, from now on all happenings must go to this way or direction, and to everlasting punishment.

Revelation 11:15-18
15 - The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
...
18 And the NATIONS were (WILL BE) angry,...

surrender1 said:

Jesus also told his disciples that some of them would live to see the kingdom of God come with power. (Mark 9:1)

Since the "coming of the son of man" already took place according to these scriptures, the "coming of the son of man" event can't be the same thing as Jesus' physical "second coming" at the physical resurrection of all humans.

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When Jesus said some would see Him coming in power, he was referring to the Transfiguration.

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mk 9:1–10.

Peter refers back to this event and calls it the power and coming of the Lord.

15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 2 Pe 1:15–18.

Butch5 said:

When Jesus said some would see Him coming in power, he was referring to the Transfiguration.

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mk 9:1–10.

Peter refers back to this event and calls it the power and coming of the Lord.

15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 2 Pe 1:15–18.

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If we analyze more deeply what JESUS said in Mark 9:1, I would say He was referring to the wonderful and Ineffable Day of Pentecost after His resurrection, from which would the Kingdom of GOD be developed among the people with great power from the invisible GOD, to whom no man had seen in any time, the only begotten Son, which was in the bosom of the Father, he is who declared Him. Aleluia!!!

Matthew 11:27 - JESUS said: ... No MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him. - Aleluiaaaa!!! -

Oseas said:

If we analyze more deeply what JESUS said in Mark 9:1, I would say He was referring to the wonderful and Ineffable Day of Pentecost after His resurrection, from which would the Kingdom of GOD be developed among the people with great power from the invisible GOD, to whom no man had seen in any time, the only begotten Son, which was in the bosom of the Father, he is who declared Him. Aleluia!!!

Matthew 11:27 - JESUS said: ... No MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him. - Aleluiaaaa!!! -

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I'm not following you.

Butch5 said:

I'm not following you.

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Of course, you MUST follow only my Lord JESUS, and obey His teachings, understand? JESUS does not want to see any intermediary, you MUST only look for Him, what the Holy Spirit can do, it is only to help you..

What does the Word of GOD say?

Isaiah 30:21
21 And thine ears shall hear a word BEHIND thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

Revelation 1:10-12
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day (seventh and last Day-LORD's Day, or seventh and last millennium), and heard BEHIND me
a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 - Saying: What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;
12 - And I turned to see the voice that spake with me.

Ezekiel 3: 12

12 Then the spirit took me up, and I heard BEHIND me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the Lord from His place.

God bless

Oseas said:

Of course, you MUST follow only my Lord JESUS, and obey His teachings, understand? JESUS does not want to see any intermediary, you MUST only look for Him, what the Holy Spirit can do, it is only to help you..

What does the Word of GOD say?

Isaiah 30:21
21 And thine ears shall hear a word BEHIND thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

Revelation 1:10-12
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day (seventh and last Day-LORD's Day, or seventh and last millennium), and heard BEHIND me
a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 - Saying: What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;
12 - And I turned to see the voice that spake with me.

Ezekiel 3: 12

12 Then the spirit took me up, and I heard BEHIND me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the Lord from His place.

God bless

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I meant I don't understand your argument.

Oseas said:

Hi
Thank you for your reply

Yes, that biblical description is very interesting, and it is also surprising / amazing, how to understand the command of JESUS to avoid preaching the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom in the city of Samaritans? I have my own thoughts and interpretations on JESUS speech, as follow:

On the other hand, as you know, the testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy. The verse says JESUS had called unto Him his twelve disciples, and said to them:

1 - Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and
2 - into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not;
3 - but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel;
4 - and as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Analysing the sequence above, what I understand in this first moment, is as follow:

1 - Go not the way of the Gentiles
because in that first moment the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom must be preached FIRST to the lost sheep of the TRUE house of Israel - two tribes - Judah and Benjamin-, that is really the house of David -1 Kings 12:16 and 19;

2 - into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not;
why? because of their roots after Solomon death. Ten of the twelve tribes of Israel withdrew their allegiance to the house of David after Solomon's death (JESUS is of the David's house), then they proclaimed the idolater Jeroboam their king, forming the northern kingdom of Israel (10 tribes) in Samaria, and the King made two calves of gold, and said unto Israel (10 tribes): It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.-1 Kings 12. Remember: JESUS said to a woman of Samaria, give me to drink. Then the woman said unto JESUS: How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

3 - but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel;
why? Because as JESUS said: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel - Matthew 15:24. And Peter Apostle preached to the Jews in the Temple of Jerusalem, saying to them: Unto you FIRST God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities- Acts 3:26

4 - and as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of heaven is at hand.
GOD the Father had promised to Abraham that in him all the nations woul be blessed. Thus JESUS , after His resurrection said to the disciples: Matthew 28:19-20 ;
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the END of the world. Amen. (The time of the END of the world arrived -the time of sorrows started - Matthew 24, from now on all happenings must go to this way or direction, and to everlasting punishment.

Revelation 11:15-18
15 - The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
...
18 And the NATIONS were (WILL BE) angry,...

Click to expand...

As Christ said it to the Samaritan woman (at the well):



As in keeping with God's intention that Israel should be the avenue for salvation to be brought unto all nations, all humankind:

6 “I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness;

I will take you by the hand and keep you;

I will give you as a covenant for the people,

a light for the nations,

---

6 he says:

“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant

to raise up the tribes of Jacob

and to bring back the preserved of Israel;

I will make you as a light for the nations,

that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

So, first Israel, and through Israel (from the house of David, the Christ) out to all the world, which reprises what was foretold before.

Butch5 said:

When Jesus said some would see Him coming in power, he was referring to the Transfiguration.

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I find nothing in the text that instructs us to divorce the Coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 16:27 from the Coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 16:28.

The only instruction I can find to wholly segregate those two verses from one another comes from the need to make the verses fit ones previoulsy held Theologic Bias, and not from any scriptural instriuction to do so.

parousia70 said:

I find nothing in the text that instructs us to divorce the Coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 16:27 from the Coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 16:28.

The only instruction I can find to wholly segregate those two verses from one another comes from the need to make the verses fit ones previoulsy held Theologic Bias, and not from any scriptural instriuction to do so.

Click to expand...

Let's read.

21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.

Halbhh said:

Let's read.

21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.

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Correct. He did not "reward each person according to what he has done" at the transfiguration did He? - Also, there is nothing in the text to even suggest that anyone He spoke to in verse 28 had yet "Tasted Death" 6 days later. So, how did all those followers of Christ die over the next few days, leaving just some to survive unto the the transfiguration 6 days later?

My question stands. Where exactly are you finding the scriptural instruction to completely sever the coming of the son of man in vs 27 from the coming of the son of man in vs 28?

parousia70 said:

Correct. He did not "reward each person according to what he has done" at the transfiguration did He? - Also, there is nothing in the text to even suggest that anyone He spoke to in verse 28 had yet "Tasted Death" 6 days later. So, how did all those followers of Christ die over the next few days, leaving just some to survive unto the the transfiguration 6 days later?

My question stands. Where exactly are you finding the scriptural instruction to completely sever the coming of the son of man in vs 27 from the coming of the son of man in vs 28?

Click to expand...

It's good when readers notice that only 3 apostles went with Christ up onto the mountain, and were there to see Him in His Glory.

And in that verse 16:28 is fulfilled perfectly -- only some of them saw that amazing moment.

During their mortal life....,

The rest will see it too, but after this life

Halbhh said:

It's good when readers notice that only 3 apostles went with Christ up onto the mountain, and were there to see Him in His Glory.

And in that verse 16:28 is fulfilled perfectly -- only some of them saw that amazing moment.

During their mortal life....,

The rest will see it too, but after this life

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You still haven’t connected scripturally, or made any scriptural case that the coming of the Son of Man in verse 28 is the transfiguration. I get that that is your conclusion you’ve drawn, I get that you’ve chosen to connect those dots, but you have not shown where scripture teaches you to do so.

I maintain the only reason you do, or anyone does so, is because it better fits your previously held theology to do so, and not because you have any scriptural instruction to do so.

There is nothing in the scripture itself that mandates the coming of the Son of Man in verse 27 and the coming of the Son of Man, and verse 28 are not one and the same coming.

Man-made tradition alone is the author of the wholesale divorce of these two back to back scriptures from one another.

parousia70 said:

You still haven’t connected scripturally, or made any scriptural case that the coming of the Son of Man in verse 28 is the transfiguration. I get that that is your conclusion you’ve drawn, I get that you’ve chosen to connect those dots, but you have not shown where scripture teaches you to do so.

I maintain the only reason you do, or anyone does so, is because it better fits your previously held theology to do so, and not because you have any scriptural instruction to do so.

There is nothing in the scripture itself that mandates the coming of the Son of Man in verse 27 and the coming of the Son of Man, and verse 28 are not one and the same coming.

Man-made tradition alone is the author of the wholesale divorce of these two back to back scriptures from one another.

Click to expand...

I did not have a "previously held theology" actually. Just reading to listen without any agenda/goal. But to include all the words (that is, I expect that all the words are meaningful--none are decorative or superfluous..)

The full wording is above, and notice also in 28 (read through to the last words).

Of course it helps tremendously i had already read that the Kingdom was right there among them. That was present in present tense. So when Christ spoke of the "Kingdom" I knew that was present tense already.

Halbhh said:

I did not have a "previously held theology" actually. Just reading to listen without any agenda/goal. But to include all the words (that is, I expect that all the words are meaningful--none are decorative or superfluous..)

The full wording is above, and notice also in 28 (read through to the last words).

Of course it helps tremendously i had already read that the Kingdom was right there among them. That was present in present tense. So when Christ spoke of the "Kingdom" I knew that was present tense already.

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Fortunately for us, The New Testament discusses the ”coming of the son of man” at least 9 times.

We have no scriptural instruction to say “well, in 8 of those times it means one thing but in this one instance and one instance alone it means something completely different.”

For Sure, Peter James and John did not believe or profess in ANY scripture that the transfiguration was “the coming of the Son of Man”

Nor does Matthew 17 anywhere state that the transfiguration was “the coming of the son of man”

It is only through extra biblical tradition, man-made speculation and tenuous inference that Anyone could come to the conclusion that, in this one single solitary instance and one instance alone, “the coming of this son of man” does not mean the same thing as EVERY other time the phrase is used.

Your responses thus far have only affirmed this to be true.

Ever the optimist, I eagerly await your citation of the scriptural instruction you are appealing to.

parousia70 said:

Fortunately for us, The New Testament discusses the ”coming of the son of man” at least 9 times.

We have no scriptural instruction to say “well, in 8 of those times it means one thing but in this one instance and one instance alone it means something completely different.”

For Sure, Peter James and John did not believe or profess in ANY scripture that the transfiguration was “the coming of the Son of Man”

Nor does Matthew 17 anywhere state that the transfiguration was “the coming of the son of man”

It is only through extra biblical tradition, man-made speculation and tenuous inference that Anyone could come to the conclusion that, in this one single solitary instance and one instance alone, “the coming of this son of man” does not mean the same thing as EVERY other time the phrase is used.

Your responses thus far have only affirmed this to be true.

Ever the optimist, I eagerly await your citation of the scriptural instruction you are appealing to.

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Well, we can notice though sometimes that verses 27 and 28 are not redundant to one another...

They are about 2 moments -- one is clearly the 2nd coming, the big one, but one is to happen in the mortal lifetime of those right there..... That's 2 moments.

This is very common in the bible: that 2 moments in time will be talked about closely together, even just 1 or 2 verses between the 2 prophecies about 2 very different moments in time.

That happens very often in the old testament, but also in the new sometimes: the prophecy will be about a certain time, and then suddenly another time will be added with more prophecy, in the same chapter, and even suddenly changing unexpectedly from 1 verse to the next.
You see it happen many times in the OT.

Halbhh said:

Well, we can notice though sometimes that verses 27 and 28 are not redundant to one another...

They are about 2 moments -- one is clearly the 2nd coming, the big one, but one is to happen in the mortal lifetime of those right there..... That's 2 moments.

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Again, the ONLY way one would be forced to separate these two comings in the way you propose would be to approach this scripture holding the previous assumption that the apostles would have understood that the "Big one" could not have happened in their Lifetimes, yet scripture is replete with Similar statements professing that the apostles should indeed expect "the Big one" to happen in their Mortal Lifetimes, and scripture is abundantly clear that they indeed expected it to. Here's a small sample, there are over 100 of them in the NT:

"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)
"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)
"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Mk. 13:30)
"These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Lk. 21:22)
"This generation will not pass away until all things take place." (Lk. 21:32)
"If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)
"The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet." (Rom. 16:20)
"Now these things were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come." (I Cor. 10:11)
"we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds "You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief." (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)
"May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Thess. 5:23)
"It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord "Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." (II Thess. 1:6-7)
"charge you that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ."(I Tim. 6:14)
"For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay." (Heb. 10:37)
"Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord." (Jms. 5:7)
"You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (Jms. 5:8)
"The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer." (I Peter 4:7)
"It is the last hour." (I Jn. 2:18)
"Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." (I Jn. 2:18)
"to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place." (Rev. 1:1)
"The time is near." (Rev. 1:3)
"Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come." (Rev. 2:25)
"I am coming quickly." (Rev. 3:11)
"to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place." (Rev. 22:6)
"Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)

For certain, the notion that Jesus was speaking about the 2 different comings in those two back to back passages the way you propose would be completely foreign to the apostles. Completely. They would have (rightly) understood Jesus to be speaking about the same event that some of them would live to see, which the whole of scripture consistently, repeatedly testifies was "coming soon, was near, was about to take place, Shortly, in their generation, before all of them had died".

Halbhh said:

This is very common in the bible: that 2 moments in time will be talked about closely together, even just 1 or 2 verses between the 2 prophecies about 2 very different moments in time.

That happens very often in the old testament, but also in the new sometimes: the prophecy will be about a certain time, and then suddenly another time will be added with more prophecy, in the same chapter, and even suddenly changing unexpectedly from 1 verse to the next.
You see it happen many times in the OT.

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I believe you are referencing how the Bible uese Type and Shadow vs Antitype/Fulfillment.
While you are correct that OT events and personalities were indeed types and shadows that pointed to New testament objects and realities, the Apostles did not see or teach this as continuing beyond the messianic generation. For Christ is no shadow but the object itself.

While the apostles understood how OT types and shadows pointed to NT fulfillments, they did not in turn teach that NT fulfillments were types and shadows of some future, greater fulfillments.

Can I assume that you believe there could very well be a future redemption of man through some future, greater sacrifice that Christ's work on the cross only "partially" fulfilled" SOME of the verses about it? In other words, your thought here opens the door for a future Calvary. Perhaps the establishment of a new Church. Another virgin birth?

Do we await another Virgin Birth, another Crucifixion? another 3rd day rising out of the tomb? Do we await some future, greater, more efficacious sacrifice of Christ for our sin?.....

No, scripture does not allow for it, for again, Christ is not the shadow but the object itself. (Col 2:16-17)

surrender1 said:

Why did Jesus tell his disciples they wouldn't finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes? (Mt. 10:23) Is it true they lived to see the coming of the son of man?

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There is a place in scripture where it says only the Father knows when the second coming will be. It is possible that Jesus like the apostles believed He would return during their life time; the apostle could have recorded a misunderstanding; the verse could have been edited or misinterpreted.


It is most likely Jesus's statement would have been timeless, Matt 10:23; what does it mean to go through a city, a 20 minute walk, or to speak to each and all the population, at least each generation, or each few years, for generations.


Jesus told His disciples they would be alive when He returned, He also told them who pierced Him, that they would be alive when he returned; this is not a problem for me, I believe, as far as the new covenant is concerned, everyone born since Christ has been a lost sheep, resurrected; Christ's return in the flesh, may involve a resurrection also.

sparow said:

There is a place in scripture where it says only the Father knows when the second coming will be. It is possible that Jesus like the apostles believed He would return during their life time; the apostle could have recorded a misunderstanding; the verse could have been edited or misinterpreted.

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I don’t believe appealing to the idea of apostolic, scriptural, or worse yet, Christic error is a foundation that any correct Biblical doctrine can be built upon.