Those who believe the perfect in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the 2nd coming...
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It's always been God who does the works. However, He gave authority to some people.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 14:26–33.
Paul states plainly that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
Peter prayed and she rose up. He didn't tell them to pray and see what happens. It was immediate. That's the gift of healing. He didn't have to wait and hope God answered his prayer. Jesus gave them authority.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 18:18–20.
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Postvieww
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1 Corinthians 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. So glad you brought this up, this is true! God may give you a word of prophecy, a message in tongues, tell you to pray for the sick, a word of wisdom, knowledge or tell you to walk on water BUT it is up to you to be obedient and act on it. If God tells you to walk across the lake and you won’t get out of the boat, guess what will happen, Nothing but if God truly told you to walk on water and you obediently step out you and Peter will have a club of two. You have the your mind set that the gifts were controlled by men but they never were nor are they today. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. Anyone can choose to act when prompted by the Spirit or NOT. God never fails, men are imperfect and do not always follow the leading of the Spirit. That is not God’s fault it is our own weakness. 1 Corinthians 12:
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
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ARBITER01
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This thread is all over the place, let's see if we can steer it back on course somewhat,....
Scripture must be taken as a whole. It's easy to cherry pick a section at times, but scripture, because it is written by The Holy Spirit, finds agreement with itself in different subjects amongst all the different books.
For instance,....
Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
Eph 4:15 but speaking truth in love, may grow up in all things into him, which is the head, even Christ;
Eph 4:16 from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in due measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love.
Have we as the body of Christ reached this point yet in our walk with GOD???
I say no, and we will never reach it in our current state of non-glorification. It's going to take Jesus and His glorification of our bodies before we will have no need of those gifts/offices that we have currently from Him.
The arguments by some people can go on forever (and they seemingly do), but for us to truly see clearly and face to face, and to know not just in part but to know even as we are already known, we are going to need Jesus to glorify our bodies so we can move past what we currently are,..... a regenerated human spirit by the sacrifice and blood of Jesus with an implanted portion of The Holy Spirit of GOD within us,........bound by a body of sin from this world.
Without a glorified body from Jesus, we are not perfected yet.
Scripture must be taken as a whole. It's easy to cherry pick a section at times, but scripture, because it is written by The Holy Spirit, finds agreement with itself in different subjects amongst all the different books.
For instance,....
Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
Eph 4:15 but speaking truth in love, may grow up in all things into him, which is the head, even Christ;
Eph 4:16 from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in due measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love.
Have we as the body of Christ reached this point yet in our walk with GOD???
I say no, and we will never reach it in our current state of non-glorification. It's going to take Jesus and His glorification of our bodies before we will have no need of those gifts/offices that we have currently from Him.
The arguments by some people can go on forever (and they seemingly do), but for us to truly see clearly and face to face, and to know not just in part but to know even as we are already known, we are going to need Jesus to glorify our bodies so we can move past what we currently are,..... a regenerated human spirit by the sacrifice and blood of Jesus with an implanted portion of The Holy Spirit of GOD within us,........bound by a body of sin from this world.
Without a glorified body from Jesus, we are not perfected yet.
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What does Paul meant in vs 8 and 13, according to you?
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Do you think he is saying that there must come a period of time where the 3 gifts vanish, but faith hope and charity remains?
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ARBITER01
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No it says that Love will be the remaining factor at some point,...
1Co 13:4 Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
1Co 13:6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
1Co 13:7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Love never faileth
Love believes all things, Love hopes for all things. It is Love that shall remain.
When shall that happen?.....
1Co 13:10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
I submit the perfection that we need in the body of Christ is the resurrection body that Jesus received. It's the only thing that He has currently that we don't yet. It's the only part of us that we still have from our past that Jesus wants to do away with. It's the very thing that Paul sought for.
That perfection will do away with any and all offices and gifts. We won't need teachers and pastors and apostles and such since we will see face to face with Jesus. He will be all in all, and it will be love that reigns.
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So my question was "why does one still need faith and hope" when we come face to face with Jesus?
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I think you missed the whole point. It says the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. It doesn't say anything about being obedient. When one is subject to another, that another has authority over the one subject to him. To say the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets means that the prophets have authority over the spirits. There's no way around that.
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ARBITER01
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Are you really paying attention to the text?
It is love that remains, and love encapsulates everything, including faith and hope.
It's quite simple actually.
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So at what time do you think this will happen?
"13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."
When is the time when this "And now" starts? When tongues, word of knowledge and prophecy cease/fail/fade but these 3 remain?
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What you said was "That perfection will do away with any and all offices and gifts. We won't need teachers and pastors and apostles and such since we will see face to face with Jesus. He will be all in all, and it will be love that reigns."
But that does not account for what vs 13 is saying, as the conclusion of vs 8-12.
If you don't wish to address that point, I am fine.
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ARBITER01
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You're coming at this from a point of inexperience, attempting to appear knowledgeable.
That's like reading a book on rocket science and then trying to teach it.
The operation of the gifts in the corporate assembly are always subject to the individual, and that is because GOD never possesses a person, He prompts us for usage through us and we allow it. GOD utilizes the gift inside us for His purpose.
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ARBITER01
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Yes it does account for verse 13, you just want to believe different.
Love is the only remaining factor according to scripture, and that encapsulates it all. I think you want to believe that there is a point in time before that where the gifts will somehow cease prior to the return of Jesus, but scripture doesn't affirm that.
People can want to believe a whole lot of stuff anymore, and they have already, but we can't run on deceptive thoughts. We must seek things out from The Holy Spirit. He must affirm scripture, not us.
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In vs 8, Paul is comparing charity with tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge, where the latter 3 will cease, and NOT charity with faith and hope
Furthermore, Vs 13 is not concluding "And now...Love is the only factor that remains"
It is saying "but the greatest of these is charity"
You understand the difference?
Who is the one that wants to believe different?
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ARBITER01
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I think you are wanting to argue.
I mean right after verse 13, with the beginning of Chapter 14, it says this,...
1Co 14:1 Follow after love; yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
"Follow after love,......yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts,..."
Like I said, I think you want to believe something different. The gifts have remained relevant to the church all this time, and they will until the return of Jesus and our glorification. Then we won't need them anymore.
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1 Cor 14:1 is not saying that faith and hope will cease before charity, so how does that support your viewpoint?
So, despite vs 13, you want to believe that faith and hope are similar to the 3 gifts of tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge, in terms of when they will cease.
Alright then, thanks for sharing your view.
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ARBITER01
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Lol,.... you know who always tried to catch Jesus in His words, the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Trying to make my words out into something else is quite unfair there. Love is the encapsulating aspect that we are to pursue according to scripture,..... and with it we are to desire earnestly spiritual gifts. They are not separate like you hoped.
It's that simple really.
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