"The Straight Testimony" of Ellen White

BobRyan

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Ever known anyone who got trichinosis?
Yep . I am connected with medical professionals and autopsies show trichinosis worms embedded in human muscle tissue -- and not detected until death.

But as I stated before - the fact that science can discover such things is not what gives us the "green light" to obey or ignore God's Word.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Yep the rats,cats,dogs,bats worms etc being shown in vision to Peter were not eaten even though he was asked to do it three times. Peter in Acts 10 claimed he had never had a rat sandwich and would not do it now (as if this was a loyalty test). Then God points him to the 3 gentiles knocking on his door. He is told to go with them and not to call humans unclean.

So while some want to just stick with the rat-sandwich theme - it was actually about not calling humans unclean - and Peter remports this same summary takeaway three times.

St Peter was not being shown pictures of unclean Gentiles.
Yet he reports it three times as being the lesson of not calling Gentiles "unclean" in his Gospel evangelism ministry , rather than being stuck on the literalism of rat sandwiches.

The very context you are leaving out of it - is what explains it.
 
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BobRyan

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25Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
27If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
once again - going to the context you are leaving out of that quote -- explains it.

Each time you leave out both the reference to the text and the context for it - you give away the fact that this is the very thing that undoes your supposition ..

1 Cor 10:
3 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor. 25 Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for the earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains. 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake; 29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s;


The issue is not 'rat sandwich' rather it is "meat offered to idols" -- but the snip quote you attempt does not let the reader see the context - so then it could be any idea you may wish to speculate about in that supposition you make.
 
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Jipsah

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The issue is not 'rat sandwich' rather it is "meat offered to idols"
Just so. So as long as the rat wasn't offered to idols, chow down. BTW, back in the days of sail, British Navy sailors said that rats who'd had the run of the bread locker for a few weeks were awfully tasty. Probably a lot like squirrel.

-- but the snip quote you attempt does not let the reader see the context
And the context changed nothing. If the clams hadn't been offered to an idol, make 'em into chowder. (Good stuff!)
 
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Jipsah

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Yep . I am connected with medical professionals and autopsies show trichinosis worms embedded in human muscle tissue -- and not detected until death.
Really! Wow, having lived amongst pork loving Southerners and Koreans all my life, I've never known of a single person ever diagnosed with trichinosis. Innat weird?
But as I stated before - the fact that science can discover such things is not what gives us the "green light" to obey or ignore God's Word.
"Rise, Peter, kill and eat...What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." There's your green light.

Yep the rats,cats,dogs,bats worms etc being shown in vision to Peter were not eaten even though he was asked to do it three times.
How do you know he wasn't served broiled rat, cat enchiladas, roast bat (unlikely, bats are hard to catch), fried agave worms (a bit greasy for my taste) and what not at Cornelius's house? But of course, nothing he ate at C's house would have been kosher, would it?
Peter in Acts 10 claimed he had never had a rat sandwich and would not do it now (as if this was a loyalty test).
And the voice said "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." while Peter was protesting that he'd never eaten anything nasty. Gentiles hadn't come up in the conversation at that point.
Then God points him to the 3 gentiles knocking on his door. He is told to go with them and not to call humans unclean.
After Peter had been told to kill and eat, which presumably did not apply to his visitors, even in the unlikely event the idea had crossed St Peter's mind.
So while some want to just stick with the rat-sandwich theme
... and some want to believe that the thrice repeated "kill and eat" command, and the very explicit response to St Petes protest that he'd never eaten any such,was meaningless. Another of those awkward "it couldn't really have meant that"moments, huh?
- it was actually about not calling humans unclean - and Peter remports this same summary takeaway three times.
It was all about what it said. You don't get to trim out the bits that don't suit your doctrine.
Yet he reports it three times as being the lesson of not calling Gentiles "unclean" in his Gospel evangelism ministry , rather than being stuck on the literalism of rat sandwiches.
So the pictures of animals and the "klill and eat" stuff were simply meaningless. Yeah, I can see how some misdirection is necessary there to preserve your doctrine. But this is another instance where those of us unburdened with your curious doctrine are free to take all of that Scripture as written.

The very context you are leaving out of it - is what explains it.
If you arrange it properly and hold your mouth just right.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:

Yep . I am connected with medical professionals and autopsies show trichinosis worms embedded in human muscle tissue -- and not detected until death.
Really! Wow, having lived amongst pork loving Southerners and Koreans all my life, I've never known of a single person ever diagnosed with trichinosis. Innat weird?
Having lived among Southerners almost all my life and also with those doing autopsies and reporting the evidence - I can see how "having the information" is very much different from NOT having the information and then imagining that no one else knows about it either.
"Rise, Peter, kill and eat...What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."
Is an Acts 10 example where Peter is told about the rat,cat,dog,bat sandwich idea - and ) 3 times Peter rejects it -- then ) three times Peter explains it as "call no man unclean" -- stating that this was about evangelism and NOT about rat,cat,dog,bat sandwiches at all.

A couple of very difficult Bible details "for some" apparently yet details is in the much-ignored texts in those same chapters you keep avoiding.
 
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BobRyan

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So the pictures of animals and the "klill and eat" stuff were simply meaningless.
Only to people that think that moving Peter into the area of gentile evangelism "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.

Only to people that suppose that "God so loved the WORLD - not just God so loved the JEWS" concept "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.

How is this even a little bit difficult???
 
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Der Alte

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I often see the way off base counter argument about rats, snakes etc. whenever someone like myself has the brazen audacity to even suggest that the OT dietary laws have been abrogated. While the dietary laws have been abrogated, those who choose to continue to observe them are free to do so but that is not license to try to force others to do the same. As I said the dietary laws have been abrogated and some folks will counter with some absurd comment, "Well, I guess you are going to eat rats and snakes etc. to which I respond, "The dietary laws have been abrogated but my common sense remains intact. I will not eat anything which is dangerous or seriously unhealthy.
 
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Der Alte

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I see the comment "rat sandwich" repeated more than once in this thread. There seems to be a major hangup with that as if nobody has any common sense and will immediately run out and start eating rat sandwiches and other nasty things.
How would former pagan gentile Christians who had no knowledge of OT dietary laws understand Acts 10:11-16? I have heard that song and dance about they would have understood it as only referring to people.
Even Peter, himself, was a hypocrite about it. Not only did he fellowship with but also ate with gentiles and I sincerely doubt that they were preparing and cooking kosher.

Galatians 2:11-16
(11) But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
(12) For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
(13) And the other Jews dissembled [deceit, condemnation, dissimulation, hypocrisy.] likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
(14) But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
(15) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
(16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The "works of the law" includes the dietary laws. I am certain that some have a ready-made explanation that this does not say what it does say.
 
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Jipsah

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Only to people that think that moving Peter into the area of gentile evangelism "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.
Still dodging what God actually said. Just erase the parts that don't suit your doctrine and soldier on, right? "nah, tweren't about food at all, that part didn't mean nuthin'".
Only to people that suppose that "God so loved the WORLD - not just God so loved the JEWS" concept "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.
[/QUOTE]
Or shrimp cocktail. "Rise, Peter, KILL ANd EAT". Repeated three times to make sure Peter got it. Apparently really warning him not to eat any Gentiles, however tasty they might appear. The Power Point with the pictures of animals was clearly a mistake. It was supposed to be a pic of a bunch of unsavory looking Romans.

And I'm your sainted Korean grandmother.

The JWs had the same problem with the Bible back in the day. They took the simple but time consuming solution of releasing with their own version with the bits that offended against their curious doctrines "translated" out. Y'all might want to conside that. Sure save a lot of shucking and jiving in an effort to avoid having to pointedly and obviously ignore stuff that the Bible very clearly says, or offer nonsensical "really meants" to keep it from shooting holes in your dogma.

How is this even a little bit difficult???
"Just dance a little sidestep, now you see it, now you don't" (Not quite a quote, but real close.)
 
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Jipsah

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Only to people that think that moving Peter into the area of gentile evangelism "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.
But Bob, you just spent a good many keystrokes "explaining" why the "kill and eat" verses really meant nothing. Make up you mind!
Only to people that suppose that "God so loved the WORLD - not just God so loved the JEWS" concept "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.
dunno what that was supposed to mean.
How is this even a little bit difficult???
I've always found it difficult to embrace overt intellectual dishonesty. It's a terrible handicap.
 
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Jipsah

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some folks will counter with some absurd comment, "Well, I guess you are going to eat rats and snakes etc
I've actually eaten snake. Weird texture, vaguely fishy. Suffered no obvious ill effects.

. to which I respond, "The dietary laws have been abrogated but my common sense remains intact. I will not eat anything which is dangerous or seriously unhealthy.
That's why I avoid the blowfish sashimi. I prefer snacks that don't have the potential to kill me.
 
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Jipsah

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Only to people that think that moving Peter into the area of gentile evangelism "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.
What people?
Only to people that suppose that "God so loved the WORLD - not just God so loved the JEWS" concept "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.

How is this even a little bit difficult???
Still don't know what that means.
 
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Jipsah

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BobRyan said:

Yep . I am connected with medical professionals and autopsies show trichinosis worms embedded in human muscle tissue -- and not detected until death.
Hmmm... CdC says that on average 16 cases a year in the US in the years 2011 though 2016 (first article I hit).
 
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BobRyan

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Hmmm... CdC says that on average 16 cases a year in the US in the years 2011 though 2016 (first article I hit).
Mayo Clinic
"Mild cases of trichinosis — those with only a small number of parasites in your body — may cause no signs or symptoms. Symptoms can develop with moderate or heavy infestation ⸺ a large number of parasites in your body. These symptoms sometimes get worse as the roundworm (trichinella) larvae travel through your body."

Let me know if you are interested in a crash course
 
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BobRyan

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So the pictures of animals and the "klill and eat" stuff were simply meaningless.
Only to people that think that moving Peter into the area of gentile evangelism "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.

Only to people that suppose that "God so loved the WORLD - not just God so loved the JEWS" concept "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.

How is this even a little bit difficult???
Still don't know what that means.
For those objective unbiased Bible students that actually read Acts 10-15 it means that gentile evangelism was "the point" as Peter pointed out repeatedly - and not "rat sandwiches".

It is fine with me if you want to claim that this glaringly obvious detail got past you. I have no problem with that.
 
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Jipsah

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Mayo Clinic
"Mild cases of trichinosis — those with only a small number of parasites in your body — may cause no signs or symptoms. Symptoms can develop with moderate or heavy infestation ⸺ a large number of parasites in your body. These symptoms sometimes get worse as the roundworm (trichinella) larvae travel through your body."

Let me know if you are interested in a crash course
I'll stick with the folks who don't have an obvious ax to grind.
 
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Only to people that think that moving Peter into the area of gentile evangelism "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.
Only to people that suppose that "God so loved the WORLD - not just God so loved the JEWS" concept "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.
How is this even a little bit difficult???
For those objective unbiased Bible students that actually read Acts 10-15 it means that gentile evangelism was "the point" as Peter pointed out repeatedly - and not "rat sandwiches".
It is fine with me if you want to claim that this glaringly obvious detail got past you. I have no problem with that.
I agree that gentiles are not required to observe the dietary rules in the OT that does not prevent them from having common sense.
1 Corinthians 6:12
(12) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. [1 Cor 10:23]​
 
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Jipsah

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Only to people that think that moving Peter into the area of gentile evangelism "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.
<ROFL> You're leaving teeth marks all over the scenery mate. But for all that, the misdirection is too obvious.
But let me 'splain this to you engineer-like:

Two things going on there. First, God is showing St Peter that food he's always considered nasty is clean if God declares it so. Godis the one who classified some animals as "unclean" in the first place, and when He later declares them "clean" then it's nonsensical to claim that He didn't, especially when you get told it three times, each subsequent time with an implicit "I said..." attached to it. So Peter goes away wondering what brought all that on.

Then the Gentiles show up at the door, and Peter has an "Oooooh, so that's it!" moment. Got has sent him Gentiles to deal with, and was letting him know that it's OK for him to deal with them.... and maybe, almost unthinkable notion that it was, to sit down and eat with them! And of course, he did both.

You're trying to present these two things, the cleaning of the animals and the cleaning of the Gentiles, as "Exclusive Or" stuff, where if one condition is true the other must be false. If God had meant to clean the animals then He couldn't have cleaned the Gentiles, but if He cleaned the Gentiles He couildn't have cleaned the animals

Two problems with that. One is that the Scripture plainly presents both things happening (although your doctrine requires you to gainsay one of them and act as though it didn't happen), and it also implies the idea of "God can't...", which is always false. What you're actually dealing with is "And" logic, where both conditions are true, both have happened, and God has removed by fiat (He gets to do that; it's how He created the universe) all the restrictions against associating with Gentiles.

You can't just arbitrarily disregard any act of God just because it steps on your doctrine. At best it's logically fallacious as well as really weird, at worst it's a matter of shouting "No!" to an act of God, which is doubleplus ungood.

Only to people that suppose that "God so loved the WORLD - not just God so loved the JEWS" concept "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.
The idea of rat sandwiches must be extraordinarily gross to you, but I don't find it all that offensive. If you'd spent any time around chickens, you'd know they'll eat anything that can't get away, and will peck kernels of undigested grain out of a cow pile or any some such nasty thing as eagerly as not. But they're "clean", aren't they? Fact is, the dietary laws were no more about health then the laws against mixed fabrics were. It was to set Israel apart and prevent them from mixing with unbelievers.
For those objective unbiased Bible students
Bwahahahahahah! Like you, for instance? C'mon mate, you're about as objective and unbiased on this subject as I am about Millwall football.


that actually read Acts 10-15 it means that gentile evangelism was "the point" as Peter pointed out repeatedly - and not "rat sandwiches".
Not XOR, Bob, ANd; your doctrine notwithstanding.
It is fine with me if you want to claim that this glaringly obvious detail got past you.
Fortunately I can admit to the existence of both your "rat sandwiches" (available, of course, at every non-kosher eating place) and the permission to associate with Gentiles (and if my family isn't Gentile there ain't any in the phone book).

I have no problem with that.
Hence the aforementioned scenery chewing. <Laugh>
 
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