Uganda legislature passes a law making it a crime to be gay [law signed, includes death penalty for some cases]

FireDragon76 said:

It's not "traditional" in this case, it's a relative new attitudes brought by missionaries. Prior to European colonization, fewer Africans had taboos against homosexuality. So yeah, Europeans are largely responsible for inculcating fundamentalist religion into parts of Africa.

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There is more context to this than that, at least in some cases with regard to Uganda in particular. For instance, there are the Anglican and Catholic martyrs of Uganda who were killed between January of 1885 and 1887 on the orders of the king Mwanga II of Buganda (the historical predecessor of modern Uganda) for refusing his sexual demands, as apparently what had been 'traditional' to that kingdom prior to the arrival of Christian missionaries was that the king's subjects had to submit to him sexually at his request. It's kind of hard to point to the Anglicans and Catholics as the 'bad guys' in this case, since I don't know anyone who would condone rape just because it's male-on-male rape, and therefore supposedly shows more 'openness' to homosexuality than those mean ol' missionaries did. (I know nobody would claim this to begin with, but my point is more that if anyone can claim a kind of moral high ground here, it ought to be those who said no to being violated, regardless of their confessional identities.)

That said, this sort of historical example is no reason to make identifying as LGBT illegal now, but I'm not Ugandan, so I don't think my opinion ultimately amounts to anything there.

FireDragon76 said:

African sexuality and the legacy of imported homophobia

In June, Botswana overturned colonial-era laws which criminalised homosexuality, with the judge, Michael Leburu, declaring that “the anti-sodomy laws are a British import” and were developed “without the consultation of local peoples”. It was viewed as a massive success and a historic...

www.stonewall.org.uk

If you say being gay is not African, you don’t know your history | Bisi Alimi

The idea that homosexuality is ‘western’ is based on another western import – Christianity. True African culture celebrates diversity and promotes acceptance

www.theguardian.com

Did Europe Bring Homophobia to Africa? - AAIHS

Recently at a public forum, someone asked me if “same-sex relations in Africa [are] un-African?” While answering the question, another interjected, “all these foreign White man’s practices [are] forced on us,” evidently alluding to the fact that same-sex relations is inherently a “western...

www.aaihs.org

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I mean here's the really stupid part of this argument....

Christianity didn't stomp out homosexuality in Egypt....Islam did.

Africa might be 49% Christians but it's 42% Muslim. There's far more Christian nations in Africa that allow homosexuality than Muslim nations.

Why is no one here bashing Muslims and their colonization of Africa? Because people are largely cowards. You might get called Islamophobic for pointing out facts.

dzheremi said:

There is more context to this than that, at least in some cases with regard to Uganda in particular. For instance, there are the Anglican and Catholic martyrs of Uganda who were killed between January of 1885 and 1887 on the orders of the king Mwanga II of Buganda (the historical predecessor of modern Uganda) for refusing his sexual demands, as apparently what had been 'traditional' to that kingdom prior to the arrival of Christian missionaries was that the king's subjects had to submit to him sexually at his request. It's kind of hard to point to the Anglicans and Catholics as the 'bad guys' in this case, since I don't know anyone who would condone rape just because it's male-on-male rape, and therefore supposedly shows more 'openness' to homosexuality than those mean ol' missionaries did. (I know nobody would claim this to begin with, but my point is more that if anyone can claim a kind of moral high ground here, it ought to be those who said no to being violated, regardless of their confessional identities.)

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Yeah, I heard about that story a long time ago in an Episcopal church.

Ana the Ist said:

I mean here's the really stupid part of this argument....

Christianity didn't stomp out homosexuality in Egypt....Islam did.

Africa might be 49% Christians but it's 42% Muslim. There's far more Christian nations in Africa that allow homosexuality than Muslim nations.

Why is no one here bashing Muslims and their colonization of Africa? Because people are largely cowards. You might get called Islamophobic for pointing out facts.

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Uganda's anti-gay laws are a legacy of Evangelical Christianity and the kind of Biblicist religion they brought, not Islam. Only a small percentage of Ugandans are Muslims.

Don't expect any evangelical to say it out loud, but this is their goal for the west, too.

Nithavela said:

Don't expect any evangelical to say it out loud, but this is their goal for the west, too.

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It's about undermining liberal democracy wherever they can, in favor of their reactionary politics.

Ana the Ist said:

Let me ask you something...and be honest...


Here's an ethnic map of Africa.


View attachment 329364


Do you have any idea how many of these various groups practice or allowed homosexuality and do you think that the fact your first article has to reach back to ancient Egypt is a good indicator of how few really did?

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I took anthropology in college. I'm well aware of the diversity of traditional African cultures, including their diverse kin groupings and sexual taboos.

FireDragon76 said:

It's about undermining liberal democracy wherever they can.

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I think it's about increasing suffering in general, but the end result is the same.

Friedrich Rubinstein said:

The more "the West" is "progressing" toward sexual deviance and open sodomy the more the rest of the world will have to implement such laws. Without the US and EU promoting LGBTQIP+ "rights" these African countries wouldn't even talk about legislature like this one.

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This law was heavily influenced by American Evangelicals.

Here you go...

FireDragon76 said:

I took anthropology in college. I'm well aware of the diversity of traditional African cultures, including their diverse kin groupings and sexual taboos.

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Oh great. Because I certainly don't know much. I've read about the Yoruba for example, and I believe there's some subset of some type of Yoruba that practice some sort of homosexual "rite of passage" I think....but I don't know if we'd call it homosexuality as much as we'd call it rape. We don't necessarily have words to describe such things.

I'm also familiar with the "Hyena men" though that's a different rite of passage entirely.

But hey, you're the "expert here". I doubt you're fully acquainted with the thousands of different groups and their various practices but of the ones you do know....how many do you know of that allowed or practiced homosexuality?

FireDragon76 said:

Yeah, I heard about that story a long time ago in an Episcopal church.




Uganda's anti-gay laws are a legacy of Evangelical Christianity

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They're more Roman Catholic than Protestant.

FireDragon76 said:

and the kind of Biblicist religion they brought, not Islam. Only a small percentage of Ugandans are Muslims.

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About 1 in 8 are Muslim. That's not small.

Edit- and the reason I brought it up was your link made some terrible, intellectually dead arguments, blaming Christianity for views on homosexuality while citing ancient Egypt as some source of positive views on homosexuality despite the fact that when it comes to mummified Egyptian "royalty" a lot of more traditional rules regarding relationships didn't apply, and the whole thing was effectively stamped out by Islam.

Ana the Ist said:

Here's an example of the Maasai tribe courtesy of Matt Walsh...

A lot of people believe a lot of bogus claims of various Gender Studies and Anthropology majors but the reality is that most societies/cultures, tribal or otherwise, reject any sort of homosexuality or transsexual or polygamous behavior. There are exceptions of course, but they are the exception, not the norm.

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Seriously, Matt Walsh? What did this silly video about transgenderism have to do with the acceptance or rejection of homosexuality?

DaisyDay said:

Seriously, Matt Walsh? What did this silly video about transgenderism have to do with the acceptance or rejection of homosexuality?

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Oh there's just wild nonsense thrown around about these groups being "LGBTQ accepting" or socialististic, or even polyamorous and its basically a new type of full blown cow pie to attempt to blame everything bad in the world on "colonialism" and white Europeans. None of it is actually true....but the Walsh interview is one example.

Here's a take down of the incident as a part of a larger takedown of his film for some balance, lest you imagine I'm biased...



"Interestingly, Walsh interviewed members of just one out of 3,000 tribes in Africa and no one else from any other culture outside of the U.S. This comes across as some spectacular cherry-picking that is unrepresentative of the diversity of beliefs and practices involving gender in the world. It is also unclear to us whether Walsh is aware that the Maasai tribe also has a tradition of female genital cutting. "


Great points, right?!? Hey guys...that's just 1 of 3000 tribes (and I guess that means they are the exception and all the other tribes don't believe in distinct gender categories or roles) and also they practice female genital mutilation (so I guess we can dismiss them entirely?)


If you ask me...these are pretty awful points but hey....I just know stuff.

DaisyDay said:

Seriously, Matt Walsh? What did this silly video about transgenderism have to do with the acceptance or rejection of homosexuality?

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If you don't understand what's going on in the colleges, you don't understand what's been going on in anthropology.

Largely, there's been the same anti-western, anti-colonialist, anti-white, anti-capitalist, anti-hetero, anti-christian sentiment running rampant in the field, making wild unproven claims about pre-colonial societies everywhere. Take the two-spirits example....you might be inclined to think that the few examples of such things were commonplace through north America and not limited to literally less than a dozen or so tribes. That's not the case.

Do you understand that? Did you know we're only talking about a handful out of hundreds and hundreds of tribes that accepted the existence of some sort of 3rd gender category in native American cultures? Or did you think it was maybe closer to 50% or 90%?

Ana the Ist said:

Oh there's just wild nonsense thrown around about these groups being "LGBTQ accepting" or socialististic, or even polyamorous and its basically a new type of full blown cow pie to attempt to blame everything bad in the world on "colonialism" and white Europeans. None of it is actually true....but the Walsh interview is one example.

Here's a take down of the incident as a part of a larger takedown of his film for some balance, lest you imagine I'm biased...

In <em>What Is a Woman?</em>, Matt Walsh asks a question, but doesn’t like the answers

Matt Walsh's documentary asks What Is a Woman? Unfortunately, his documentary is every bit as much of a science denying propaganda film disguised as a documentary as antivax films like VAXXED or the a

sciencebasedmedicine.org

"Interestingly, Walsh interviewed members of just one out of 3,000 tribes in Africa and no one else from any other culture outside of the U.S. This comes across as some spectacular cherry-picking that is unrepresentative of the diversity of beliefs and practices involving gender in the world. It is also unclear to us whether Walsh is aware that the Maasai tribe also has a tradition of female genital cutting. "


Great points, right?!? Hey guys...that's just 1 of 3000 tribes (and I guess that means they are the exception and all the other tribes don't believe in distinct gender categories or roles) and also they practice female genital mutilation (so I guess we can dismiss them entirely?)


If you ask me...these are pretty awful points but hey....I just know stuff.

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Seems as though you could have found a video that supported your point instead of one that didn't, but hey, whatever. And no, that wasn't an attempt to blame everything on colonialism, it was a rebuttal that the Ugandan law was in reaction to the decadence of the progressive West.

DaisyDay said:

Seems as though you could have found a video that supported your point instead of one that didn't, but hey, whatever.

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It's an example. You want a general survey of all 3000?

DaisyDay said:

And no, that wasn't an attempt to blame everything on colonialism,

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I'm sorry, again, if you're completely oblivious to the sort of outlandish claims made in anthropology these days, you'd have no idea what I'm talking about.

DaisyDay said:

it was a rebuttal that the Ugandan law was in reaction to the decadence of the progressive West.

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It's literally stated as such by the people who passed it. This is largely in response to teachers in schools being accused of homosexual behavior with children and the Church of England allowing gay marriage.

They literally passed this because of what they see happening overseas and a few incidents in their own nation.


You'll notice, no article anywhere says "a group of white evangelicals convinced Uganda to pass this law".

Ana the Ist said:

They're more Roman Catholic than Protestant.

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Roman Catholic social teaching condemns laws criminalizing homosexuality.

Ana the Ist said:

If you don't understand what's going on in the colleges, you don't understand what's been going on in anthropology.

Largely, there's been the same anti-western, anti-colonialist, anti-white, anti-capitalist, anti-hetero, anti-christian sentiment running rampant in the field, making wild unproven claims about pre-colonial societies everywhere. Take the two-spirits example....you might be inclined to think that the few examples of such things were commonplace through north America and not limited to literally less than a dozen or so tribes. That's not the case.

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It wasn't just a few tribes. Native Americans did not have Judeo-Christian values regarding sex. They had a variety of taboos, seldom did they involve homosexuality.

I took anthropology decades ago. At the time we were exposed to a variety of different schools of thought, with Functionalism still being dominant.

FireDragon76 said:

Roman Catholic social teaching condemns laws criminalizing homosexuality.

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Oh ok....how about Islam?

FireDragon76 said:

It wasn't just a few tribes.

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I dug as hard as I cared to and I'll be honest, I couldn't find more than maybe 6-12 genuine examples mostly from pacific northwestern tribes. I couldn't tell you the exact number of tribes, but I'm certain some of those examples were pulled from the same tribe.

I found as many debunked examples cited by activists as I did genuine. My favorite included a report of a tribe in the northeast (though I don't remember if it's modern day Canada or New England) that mentioned tribe with a man "living as a woman". Other reports showed this was a shaming. He had returned from battle claiming to be the only survivor and when several of his peers returned later his claims of heroism were countered with claims of cowardice. His resulting punishment was to live as the opposite gender role and do a woman's duties.

FireDragon76 said:

Native Americans did not have Judeo-Christian values regarding sex. They had a variety of taboos, seldom did they involve homosexuality.

I took anthropology decades ago. At the time we were exposed to a variety of different schools of thought, with Functionalism still being dominant.

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I disagree....I don't know any expert who agrees with you. We can probably generally describe about 90%+ of North American tribes as patriarchal, familial monarchies, non-egalitarian (chieftains typically horded wealth), with distinct gender roles. Men were expected to hunt food, make war, and die in battle. Almost universally disgrace, torture, and shame were heaped upon those who were cowardly.

If you think there's some dearth of evidence for anything other than male/female unions or pairings....go ahead. I'm genuinely interested if you can pull evidence for more than a dozen or so tribes.