Justification and Sanctification ?

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
While it's taught that absolute sinless perfection is not possible in this life, persistence in grave sin as mentioned above would be to mock God and the work of His Son as that kind of sin is directly opposed to and destructive of love of God and neighbor.
Which we see in the ol' do as I say, not as I do ploy
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,887
3,526
✟320,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Which we see in the ol' do as I say, not as I do ploy
Yes, a situation you'll find wherever you find human beings. What we say may be perfectly correct, but whether or not we carry it out so well is another question altogether.

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." Matt 23:3
 
Upvote 0

setst777

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,204
599
66
Greenfield
Visit site
✟350,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The church has struggled with these matters many centuries ago. The problem involves whether there is any consequence for sin. Can no amount or gravity of sin separate us from God again? The early church actually taught that there can be no repentance for serious sin after conversion, such as for murder or adultery. Conversion to the living God involved the turning away from sin and the ways of the world. Various passages support this no-more-repentance-available idea and in any case Gal 5 and elsewhere affirm that such sins lead to death. This was modified fairly soon, meaning that it was recognized that, due to God's love and mercy and desire that none should perish, one can repent of any sin, with a true change of heart. But sin was taken very seriously back then; the early believers had given up much to become Christians, including their lives and those who had returned to the flesh were not easily, or quickly, considered to be under God's grace again.

So the historic teachings maintain that a believer has embarked on a journey, away from sin and nearer and nearer to God, to the holiness without which he will not see God (Heb 12:14). He must be on that road, walking by the Spirit, remaining in Christ, or else he'll inevitably stray. While it's taught that absolute sinless perfection is not possible in this life, persistence in grave sin as mentioned above would be to mock God and the work of His Son as that kind of sin is directly opposed to and destructive of love of God and neighbor.

Whatever the early church may have taught, there is hardly a sin that cannot be forgiven if one's heart is truly repentant. Even King David had Bathsheba's husband killed, because he coveted his wife, desiring his wife for himself. But God forgave David for killing of her husband, his lust and covetousness, and his adultery, taking her as his wife.

Consider also the following incident:

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 (WEB) It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles, that one has his father’s wife. 2 You are arrogant, and didn’t mourn instead, that he who had done this deed might be removed from among you. 3 For I most certainly, as being absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as though I were present, judged him who has done this thing. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, you being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 are to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul writes to the Corinthian church again regarding this man who has his father's wife.

2 Corinthians 2:1-10 (WEB) But I determined this for myself, that I would not come to you again in sorrow. 2 For if I make you grieve, then who will make me glad but he who is made to grieve by me? 3 And I wrote this very thing to you, so that, when I came, I wouldn’t have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy would be shared by all of you. 4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote to you with many tears, not that you should be made to grieve, but that you might know the love that I have so abundantly for you. 5 But if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow, not to me, but in part (that I not press too heavily) to you all. 6 This punishment which was inflicted by the many is sufficient for such a one; 7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive him and comfort him, lest by any means such a one should be swallowed up with his excessive sorrow. 8 Therefore I beg you to confirm your love toward him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might know the proof of you, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 Now I also forgive whomever you forgive anything. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 that no advantage may be gained over us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,887
3,526
✟320,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Whatever the early church may have taught, there is hardly a sin that cannot be forgiven if one's heart is truly repentant. Even King David had Bathsheba's husband killed, because he coveted his wife, desiring his wife for himself. But God forgave David for killing of her husband, his lust and covetousness, and his adultery, taking her as his wife.

Consider also the following incident:

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 (WEB) It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles, that one has his father’s wife. 2 You are arrogant, and didn’t mourn instead, that he who had done this deed might be removed from among you. 3 For I most certainly, as being absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as though I were present, judged him who has done this thing. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, you being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 are to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul writes to the Corinthian church again regarding this man who has his father's wife.

2 Corinthians 2:1-10 (WEB) But I determined this for myself, that I would not come to you again in sorrow. 2 For if I make you grieve, then who will make me glad but he who is made to grieve by me? 3 And I wrote this very thing to you, so that, when I came, I wouldn’t have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy would be shared by all of you. 4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote to you with many tears, not that you should be made to grieve, but that you might know the love that I have so abundantly for you. 5 But if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow, not to me, but in part (that I not press too heavily) to you all. 6 This punishment which was inflicted by the many is sufficient for such a one; 7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive him and comfort him, lest by any means such a one should be swallowed up with his excessive sorrow. 8 Therefore I beg you to confirm your love toward him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might know the proof of you, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 Now I also forgive whomever you forgive anything. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 that no advantage may be gained over us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
And yet we cannot take sin cavalierly, as if it's forgiven automatically, as if it's impossible to compromise and destroy our relationship with God all over again. If we don't forgive others their sins, reciprocating with the same kind of love He's shown us, then our own sins will not be forgiven for that matter (Matt 6:15). God's looking for change in us, which only He can make as we enter fellowship with Him and remain in it. Those who walk with God ultimately overcome sin, or they're not walking with Him.

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." (1 John 3:4-6).

Going by Scripture on the matter of repentance, we should also check out passages such as Matt 12:22-30, Mark 3:22-30, Luke 12:10, and also 1 John 5:16-17, 2 Pet 2:20-22, Heb 6:4, Heb 10:26-31.

Regardless of of how much faith we profess to have, or how born again we proclaim to be, sin can exclude us from heaven as it constitutes a turning away from God.
 
Upvote 0

setst777

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,204
599
66
Greenfield
Visit site
✟350,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
And yet we cannot take sin cavalierly, as if it's forgiven automatically, as if it's impossible to compromise and destroy our relationship with God all over again. If we don't forgive others their sins, reciprocating with the same kind of love He's shown us, then our own sins will not be forgiven for that matter (Matt 6:15). God's looking for change in us, which only He can make as we enter fellowship with Him and remain in it. Those who walk with God ultimately overcome sin, or they're not walking with Him.

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." (1 John 3:4-6).

Going by Scripture on the matter of repentance, we should also check out passages such as Matt 12:22-30, Mark 3:22-30, Luke 12:10, and also 1 John 5:16-17, 2 Pet 2:20-22, Heb 6:4, Heb 10:26-31.

Regardless of of how much faith we profess to have, or how born again we proclaim to be, sin can exclude us from heaven as it constitutes a turning away from God.

True, a Christian is to be holy onto God, following Lord Jesus in a life of righteousness and love.

The sins that will not be forgiven is to blaspheme the Spirit, or insult the Holy Spirit by deliberately continuing to live in sin.

Blessings
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

setst777

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,204
599
66
Greenfield
Visit site
✟350,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Might have had an impact otherwise on future events.

Yes, sin will likely have an impact, not only on our own lives, but will likely affect the lives of others in a negative way. Nevertheless, God forgives our sins if we truly repent. And God, who knows the hearts of all men, will act righteously according to his mercy and justice.

Blessings.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0

sawdust

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2004
3,576
599
67
Darwin
✟198,262.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And this is a basic misunderstanding of the Reformed movement. In truth, Christ delivers me from the sin that separates me from God, earning me death. Grace saves me by not only forgiveness of sin but by the overcoming of future sin, enabling us to 'go, and sin no more' with a new, authentic righteousness not based on the law but on faith, a righteousness that's ensured to the extent that we walk by the Spirit, now in union with God, under grace. This understanding flows naturally from Rom 6 and into Rom 8.

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."
Rom 8:3-4, 8:12-14
What exactly are you saying is the basic "misunderstanding of the Reformed movement" as it isn't clear to me for you seem to be agreeing with what I said?
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,887
3,526
✟320,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
What exactly are you saying is the basic "misunderstanding of the Reformed movement" as it isn't clear to me for you seem to be agreeing with what I said?
I apologize if I misunderstood. I took your post as implying that a believer is permanently delivered from the penalty of sin, since it's impossible to refrain from sin. This is an error that many have concluded be true going by their understanding of the doctrine of Sola Fide primarily.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sawdust

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2004
3,576
599
67
Darwin
✟198,262.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I apologize if I misunderstood. I took your post as implying that a believer is permanently delivered from the penalty of sin, since it's impossible to refrain from sin. This is an error that many have concluded be true going by their understanding of the doctrine of Sola Fide primarily.
That's not what I was saying as I was speaking of committing sins not the penalty of sin but I don't have time right now to expand. I will get back to you. :)
 
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,488
760
✟119,587.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
AbbaLove, I believe Jesus demands perfection. Do you believe this also ?

Samuel said, “Has Yahweh as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying Yahweh’s voice?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams".
1 Samuel 15:22 (WEB)

15 But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do,
16 because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (were they just to be Aaron and the cohanim (priests)
1 Peter 1:15-16

Who are to be the holy priests in the New Covenant

While it's taught that absolute sinless perfection is not possible in this life ...
Do you think it's possible that the tombs that broke open held holy saints that were asleep, raised and entered the holy city appearing to many people. Was it possible that they were "First Fruits" ... righteous and sanctified by Yahwah as Holy vessels.
 
Upvote 0

BurningBush84

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2023
601
127
40
Minnesota
✟35,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced

Samuel said, “Has Yahweh as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying Yahweh’s voice?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams".
1 Samuel 15:22 (WEB)

15 But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do,
16 because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (were they just to be Aaron and the cohanim (priests)
1 Peter 1:15-16

Who are to be the holy priests in the New Covenant


Do you think it's possible that the tombs that broke open held holy saints that were asleep, raised and entered the holy city appearing to many people. Was it possible that they were "First Fruits" ... righteous and sanctified by Yahwah as Holy vessels.

AbbaLove, do you honestly believe Paul never sinned after his conversion???
 
  • Informative
Reactions: AbbaLove
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,887
3,526
✟320,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married

Samuel said, “Has Yahweh as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying Yahweh’s voice?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams".
1 Samuel 15:22 (WEB)

15 But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do,
16 because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (were they just to be Aaron and the cohanim (priests)
1 Peter 1:15-16

Who are to be the holy priests in the New Covenant


Do you think it's possible that the tombs that broke open held holy saints that were asleep, raised and entered the holy city appearing to many people. Was it possible that they were "First Fruits" ... righteous and sanctified by Yahwah as Holy vessels.
I really couldn’t tell you, but perhaps. Perfection is to be our goal, and technically posssble with God, and it will be achieved in us by Him ultimately, but I think it will be not until we meet “face to face” in the next life, for most of us.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: AbbaLove
Upvote 0

sawdust

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2004
3,576
599
67
Darwin
✟198,262.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I apologize if I misunderstood. I took your post as implying that a believer is permanently delivered from the penalty of sin, since it's impossible to refrain from sin. This is an error that many have concluded be true going by their understanding of the doctrine of Sola Fide primarily.
Expanding on what I said earlier. There are two sides of the coin when speaking of the penalty of death, spiritual and physical.

Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” (literally die to die)

We are delivered from spiritual death permanently the moment we believe in the Lord Jesus for we cannot have eternal life and remain spiritually dead.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But we are not delivered from physical death and we still have a sin nature (another law Rom.7:23) at work in our flesh. It acts like an internal "serpent in the garden" tempting us away from the things of God. As long as we try to overcome sin on the basis of our own strength, we are guaranteed to fail. We must rely upon God's grace working by means of the filling of the Holy Spirit through faith which is the word of God abiding in our soul. As we grow in knowledge of God by His grace, maturing toward the full stature of Christ, we will sin less but we will never be sinless until the resurrection for the sin nature remains.

I hope that makes what I said first off a little clearer. :)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: AbbaLove
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,887
3,526
✟320,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Expanding on what I said earlier. There are two sides of the coin when speaking of the penalty of death, spiritual and physical.

Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” (literally die to die)

We are delivered from spiritual death permanently the moment we believe in the Lord Jesus for we cannot have eternal life and remain spiritually dead.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But we are not delivered from physical death and we still have a sin nature (another law Rom.7:23) at work in our flesh. It acts like an internal "serpent in the garden" tempting us away from the things of God. As long as we try to overcome sin on the basis of our own strength, we are guaranteed to fail. We must rely upon God's grace working by means of the filling of the Holy Spirit through faith which is the word of God abiding in our soul. As we grow in knowledge of God by His grace, maturing toward the full stature of Christ, we will sin less but we will never be sinless until the resurrection for the sin nature remains.

I hope that makes what I said first off a little clearer. :)
Thank you, and, yes, that’s what I thought you meant. But the reason that we no longer earn ourselves death is because Jesus finally delivers us from the cause of death: sin. Our sins are forgiven; we’re washed, cleansed, made new creations now able to overcome future sin by the Spirit given us…if we continue to care, to cooperate with His work, to seek holiness, to remain slaves to righteousness, to walk by the Spirit. I’d suggest reading Romans 6-8 carefully, for yourself. Sin can most certainly separate us from the grace of God, can kill us IOW, all over again; otherwise no degree of anti-human, anti-God behavior on a believer’s part could ever condemn him, which would be absurd. We must do our part, picking up our cross daily and following Him, walking in His ways, now that we know them, and now that He's enabled us to do so.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,488
760
✟119,587.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
AbbaLove, do you honestly believe Paul never sinned after his conversion???
That's for the Lord to determne. Paul (in hindsight) could have considered himself a "chief" sinner under the Mosaic Laws, Levitical regulations and Jewish traditions after his conversion (Acts 15:10). The 4 sins that gentile Christian disciples (Acts 15:29) were to abstain from were: food sacrificed to idols, blood, the meat of strangled animals, fornication.

So, just as with some of the Corinthian Christians nearly 2000 years ago a nominal Christian may give-in to tempation. Even some Priests, Pastors and Clergy that can't seem to STOP sexual immorality. So, we can agree that Paul was correct in telling the nominal Christians at Corinth to "stop sinning". It is possible for a born again Christian to stop sexual immorality ... maybe not for a nominal Christian (Priest, Pastor, Clergy), but a born again Christian (Titus 3:5) should be able to resist the temptation of sexual immortality (James 4:7).

I really couldn’t tell you, but perhaps. Perfection is to be our goal, and technically posssble with God, and it will be achieved in us by Him ultimately, but I think it will be not until we meet “face to face” in the next life, for most of us.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.
29 For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Justification does not precede ones calling, rather justified precedes glorified.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

setst777

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,204
599
66
Greenfield
Visit site
✟350,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That's for the Lord to determne. Paul (in hindsight) could have considered himself a "chief" sinner under the Mosaic Laws, Levitical regulations and Jewish traditions after his conversion (Acts 15:10). The 4 sins that gentile Christian disciples (Acts 15:29) were to abstain from were: food sacrificed to idols, blood, the meat of strangled animals, fornication.

So, just as with some of the Corinthian Christians nearly 2000 years ago a nominal Christian may give-in to tempation. Even some Priests, Pastors and Clergy that can't seem to STOP sexual immorality. So, we can agree that Paul was correct in telling the nominal Christians at Corinth to "stop sinning". It is possible for a born again Christian to stop sexual immorality ... maybe not for a nominal Christian (Priest, Pastor, Clergy), but a born again Christian (Titus 3:5) should be able to resist the temptation of sexual immortality (James 4:7).

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.
29 For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Justification does not precede ones calling, rather justified precedes glorified.

Very true. No true Christian continues in any sin; they cannot, because they have renounced the old Master, and now, with the Spirit's help, follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love to the end. This is the New Life in Lord Jesus.

The gracious promises of God in "Romans 8:30" are for those, who after being called by the Gospel and the Spirit, will love God manifested in repentance toward God and faith in His Son (Acts 20:20-21).

To love God is to put our faith in Lord Jesus, following him into a sanctified life of righteousness and love (Colossians 3:1-17). To these who love Lord Jesus, God dwells in them by His Spirit to guide them.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23
(WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

To these who love God, then God will intern work out good in all things (Romans 8:28).

1 Corinthians 2:9 (WEB) But as it is written, “Things which an eye didn’t see, and an ear didn’t hear, which didn’t enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him.” [Isaiah 64:4]

Not that life will be a bowl of cherries in this life, but that in the good times as well as the bad, through tribulation, sufferings, persecutions, poverty, temptations, and in all things, those who trust God, following His Son, without giving up, always possess God's peace, His Spirit to guide them, spiritual wisdom, His mercy, and the glorious hope; in that, the faithful inherit the promises of God listed in "Romans 8:30."

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited {{{the promises}}}.

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB) 35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may {{{receive The Promise}}}
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: AbbaLove
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BurningBush84

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2023
601
127
40
Minnesota
✟35,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
What about the 10 commandments and what they mean ? What about lust? Or any sinful thought . You actually believe Paul never broke a commandment ?

I don't believe a person is truly being honest with themselves if they think they don't sin. Why would Jesus command people to pray the Lord's Prayer ? Do you skip the part where it says "forgive us our trespasses" ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0