Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?
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The purpose for the gifts was to confirm the message of the apostles. it was for the unbeliever, it was for the world. Paul states that tongues in particular was for the unbeliever.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 14:22.
Paul said tongues were for the unbeliever, yet today we have Christians claiming tongues are for believers. Some go so far as to say if a person doesn't speak in tongues they're not saved.
If the gifts were for a sign, and they were to confirm the apostles' message, what purpose do they serve today? The apostles aren't here anymore. I don't know any Christian whose theology is perfect and without error, so it wouldn't be to confirm their word. Unless of course one would argue that God would confirm erroneous teaching.
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ARBITER01
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You don't have a clue what you are talking about,........ friend.
There is not a single moment in scripture where the gifts were ever used to promote the good news of Jesus Christ. Not a single mention of this ever.
Did you hear that correctly? Let me spell that out for you again. There is no example in scripture where Peter, Paul, Steven, or any one of the other 1st Century Christians ever used the gifts to promote or confirm the gospel. Period.
Now,..............and pay attention to this,..........the gifts were used as an arresting truth so the gospel could be preached by the 1st Century Christians, like we see with Peter In acts 2 and other various examples in Acts, where the gifts were manifested by GOD for healing or a miracle first, and then the message was preached by one of them following it,...................... not the other way around.
Other than these examples in scripture where GOD showed HIs mercy to a dying world, the gifts serve no purpose other than for the body of Christ,....
1Co 14:12 So also ye, since ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may abound unto the edifying of the church.
They serve no other purpose than personal use or corporate use for edification. That's it.
Btw,..... just because you and your church have refused the filling of The Holy Spirit doesn't mean you are not saved. It just means you have refused to follow Jesus and take one of the steps that He did for His ministry. That's all.
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You are using eisegesis to read your own opinion into the Scripture passage, while ignoring everything else Paul said about the gift of tongues. You can't take one isolated verse from the chapter and say that is Paul's complete view of tongues. Seeing that Paul is writing about tongues to the Corinthians to correct them about misuse of the gift by speaking in public without interpretation, if the verse you quoted is Paul's general view of tongues, why has he not said the same thing to the other churches to whom he wrote?
The obvious answer to that is that none of the other churches had any issues with the use of the gift, so he didn't see the need to give correction about it in the same way he did to the Corinthians.
Actually Paul said, "Do not forbid speaking in tongues." It seems to me that you are disobeying Paul's instruction by giving teaching that says that speaking in tongues comes from "erroneous teaching" and therefore not of God. Therefore, if anyone spoke in tongues in your hearing it would seem that you would tell them that they were wrong and essentially forbid them to speak in tongues, contradicting Paul's direct instruction not to forbid speaking in tongues.
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Agreed. Your penultimate sentence is significant: "have refused to follow Jesus". My view is that if Jesus is not Lord of all, then He is not Lord at all. Also, William Gurnall ("Christian in Complete Armour") said: "When people depart from the truth, God departs from them". Therefore, my view is that those who refuse the filling of the Holy Spirit and His gifts are departing from the truth of God's Word in that area and are not acknowledging the Lordship of Jesus by complying with God's inspired Word by making their own opinions Lord. Therefore the jury is out concerning whether those who refuse to be obedient to what God's Word says are actually saved or not. But then, I have a fairly black and white view in that one believes the whole Bible as being true, or none of it.
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ARBITER01
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I don't consider them condemned, they are still sealed with The Holy Spirit inside if they were born again, just not walking in fellowship and obedience with Jesus
Is it any wonder how satan is moving so easily into the old mainline Protestant denominations with all his homosexuality and perversion, and creating division and strife in their churches? They have all denied the filling of The Holy Spirit that was given as an example for us, so Jesus has something against them, and has for a while now.
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I know that Jesus is the only Judge of who is saved and who isn't, and I know that we all have difficulties with holiness at times, given that we have a flesh that wars against the Spirit. Also, I think that many who ignore the filling of the Spirit as part of their fellowship with the Lord are doing it out of wrong teaching and ignorance. Because we are all works in progress then we need to be patient and understanding in this area. So in that respect, I am on the same page as you are.
But I see a contradiction between being born again of the Spirit of God, and not walking in fellowship and obedience with Jesus. In my view, we can't have one without the other. For this reason, if we are in churches where the filling of the Spirit is not encouraged, then we are blocked in what we know is right. In our hearts we want to move in the Spirit with the gifts, but we are frustrated because either there is no opportunity, or that we risk getting thrown out of the church if we attempt to use a spiritual gift. I think that there are many believers who are conflicted concerning their desire to move in the Spirit while being in a church environment where it is not encouraged or outright forbidden, and yet they love their church and don't want to upset the applecart.
I am in a Union church where the people there have no idea about what being filled with the Spirit is all about, and have had no teaching either way about the gifts. In fact, if I spoke about the gifts of the Spirit, they would look at me with blank stares, not knowing what I am on about. They would be like the 12 disciples at Ephesus who told Paul that they didn't know there was a Holy Spirit. The people in my church would think that the Holy Spirit is some indeterminate invisible mist that hovers over a service performing something mystical but not knowing what. So I have to refrain from praying in tongues out loud because that would spook them out, and if I felt like giving prophecy, I would disguise it by saying, "If Jesus was here, I think He would say this..." I have prayed for healing, and one of our lady lay preachers who had the 90 day cough testified that after I prayed for her, the cough went away. I don't make a big thing about praying for someone. I just take their wrist and say, "Jesus heals you" and leave the rest up to Him. I don't tell them to "take it in faith", or "you are not healed because you don't have enough faith." I just pray the simple prayer and leave the rest up to the Lord to decide whether He wants to heal that person right there and then, or do it over a period of time, or not at all. I can't tell the Lord what to do. all I can do pray the prayer of faith according to James and leave the prayer request in the Lord's "in-tray". So, when I do get the opportunity, I do exercise the gifts that I have, but I do it in such a way that they don't know that I am exercising a gift. I know I am, and so does the Lord, and that is all that matters to me.
I'm sorry to have typed so much, but it all flowed out, and because I am a trained typist, when the thoughts come thick and fast I find it difficult to know when to stop.
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I'm always amused when people tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Especially when they make statements that are so demonstrably wrong. You claim there is no Scripture when in fact I've already given Scripture.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 14:21–22.
There you have it. Paul states unequivocally that tongues was a sign for the unbeliever.
Before I go on to other passages, let's discuss Critical Thinking. Where does Paul say that the purpose of the gifts is to edify the Church? Correlation is not causation. Just because the church was edified in the use of the gifts doesn't mean that that is the purpose of the gifts.
In that passage Paul said, 'in the law it is written'. Let's look at the Law and see where it was written.
Whom shall he teach knowledge?
And whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
Them that are weaned from the milk,
And drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
Line upon line, line upon line;
Here a little, and there a little:
11 For with xstammering lips and another tongue
Will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said,
This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
And this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them
Precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
Line upon line, line upon line;
Here a little, and there a little;
That they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
And snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men,
That rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Is 28:9–14.
This is the passage Paul is referring to. Notice who tongues are addressed to. They're addressed to the "scornful men that rule this people which is in Jerusalem'". Who ruled in Jerusalem? It was Sadducees and the Pharisees. These are the unbelievers that Paul is referring to. Tongues was a sign to the Jewish leadership in particular.
But let's look at some more.
11 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand,
And instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
12 Say ye not, A confederacy,
To all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy;
Neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself;
And let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary;
But for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel,
For a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken,
And be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD,
That hideth his face from the house of Jacob,
And I will look for him.
18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me
Are for signs and for wonders in Israel
From the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Is 8:11–18.
If we compare verse 14 with what we saw in Isaiah 28 we find the same wording. This stone of stumbling and rock of offence is quoted by Paul and applied to Christ. He is the rock of offence. Again, notice it is to both houses of Israel. Then notice verse 18. Isaiah prophesies the words of Christ, "I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and wonders in Israel". Notice he said they were signs and wonders in Israel. He didn't say that were for signs and wonders in the church.
We also have the words of Mark.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mk 16:14–20.
They preached everywhere and the Lord was working with them. What was He doing? He was "confirming the word" with signs and wonders. There you have it. It's crystal clear. The Lord was confirming the word with signs and wonders.
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ARBITER01
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I didn't even bother with that. You wasted a lot of your time.
It's real simple here,..... show an actual example in scripture where the gospel was preached first by one of the 1st Century Christians, and then the gifts were operated afterwards confirming it,.... like you said.
I'll make this real simple for you here, there isn't an example in scripture of this, but go ahead and try to piece together sections of scripture hoping to justify your stance.
As I said before, the gifts of The Spirit are for the body of Christ, not the world. They are the children's bread, those who are born again.
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Eisegesis, that's funny. I may be the only one in this thread who's not. I didn't ignore anything Paul said about tongues. I simply pointed out that he said it was for the unbeliever. That was its purpose. As I pointed out in post 538 Paul referred back to Isaiah 28 where Isaiah explained what tongues was for. It was a sign to unbelieving Israel. Isaiah said tongues were for Israel. Paul, referring back to Isaiah said tongues were for the unbeliever. Neither one of them said that tongues were for the church. Unless one is going to claim that the church consists of unbelievers one can't really argue that tongues are for the church. Now, the church was edified when people spoke in tongues because it was sign from God. The message, according to Isaiah was that it was,
For with xstammering lips and another tongue
Will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said,
This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
And this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them
Precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
Line upon line, line upon line;
Here a little, and there a little;
That they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
And snared, and taken.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Is 28:11–13.
So, the message was the rest and the refreshing. I was the Gospel. In acts they called it, "the wonderful works of God".
Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in rPontus, and sAsia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 2:7–12.
So, of course this edifies the church. However, as we saw from Isaiah, the speaking in tongues was for a sign to the unbelieving leadership of Israel. It was to call out the leadership and make them choose one way or the other.
We know what Paul's general view of tongues was, because he alluded to Isaiah 28. So, his view was that tongues was for a sign to unbelieving Israel.
No, Paul did not forbid speaking in tongues, why would he? It was a gift from God. However, Paul also said that tongues would cease. It did. Thus, the command to not forbid speaking in tongues is no longer relevant. So, no I would not be contradicting Paul. Would you tell someone today that in order to have their sins forgiven they had to go to the temple and offer up an animal to be sacrificed on the day or Atonement? I'm pretty sure you would not. Why? Because the Mosaic Law came to an end. It was replaced by the New Covenant so the old is no longer relevant to Christians. Well, likewise, In Paul's day commands regarding tongues were relevant, in our day they aren't as tongues has ceased.
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"As I said" isn't proof. I gave you the words right out of Mark that the Lord was working with them "Confirming the word with signs following". You can choose not to believe Scripture, that's your prerogative, but please, let's not pretend that it isn't there.
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ARBITER01
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Just for those who might be watching,...
We don't cherry pick a section of scripture out and then build a doctrine around it.
For instance,...
Mar 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.
Scripture confirms scripture because it is written by The Holy Spirit, so do we have an example of this happening in scripture to confirm it? No,... and that creates a problem for us. It is the opposite in scripture, GOD manifests the gifts first and then the preaching starts happening afterwards.
You see, although I believe the ending of Mark to be valid, it has many different wordings in the manuscripts making it hard to pick out what is really true from addition. And relying upon unregenerate scholars nowadays makes it even harder to know what should be the correct wording for the ending in our bibles.
That is one of the many downfalls of building a doctrine around one line of scripture.
We don't cherry pick a section of scripture out and then build a doctrine around it.
For instance,...
Mar 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.
Scripture confirms scripture because it is written by The Holy Spirit, so do we have an example of this happening in scripture to confirm it? No,... and that creates a problem for us. It is the opposite in scripture, GOD manifests the gifts first and then the preaching starts happening afterwards.
You see, although I believe the ending of Mark to be valid, it has many different wordings in the manuscripts making it hard to pick out what is really true from addition. And relying upon unregenerate scholars nowadays makes it even harder to know what should be the correct wording for the ending in our bibles.
That is one of the many downfalls of building a doctrine around one line of scripture.
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I didn't claim the gifts were for the world. I said they were to confirm the word, the message of the apostles.
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ARBITER01
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Oh yes you did, don't back out now,....
If we compare verse 14 with what we saw in Isaiah 28 we find the same wording. This stone of stumbling and rock of offence is quoted by Paul and applied to Christ. He is the rock of offence. Again, notice it is to both houses of Israel. Then notice verse 18. Isaiah prophesies the words of Christ, "I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and wonders in Israel". Notice he said they were signs and wonders in Israel. He didn't say that were for signs and wonders in the church.
You were adamant about the gifts not being for the church and for the world (Israel) in your posts, when scripture says otherwise,....
1Co 14:12 So also ye, since ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may abound unto the edifying of the church.
It doesn't say to seek that ye may abound to the edifying of Israel does it?
I think you need to back up and regroup there marine, cause you're approaching this topic from a book knowledge position only, and that is not good enough.
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If you believe that, so be it. For me, I have heard these arguments since I first became a believer in 1966. You are just one of the latest in a very long line of cessationists who have come up with the same old chestnuts time after time. You will notice that only a couple of us continuists have bothered to converse with you about the issue. The reason for that is that the hundreds of other continuist members just can't be bothered because they are too busy dealing with more important issues. Since I joined CF in 2005 I have seen posts like yours many times and have spent much of my time giving my views. Nowadays when I see someone new bringing up the old cessationist chestnut, I say to myself: "Here we go again..." So, frankly, I can't be bothered. I know what the Lord has told me about the gift of tongues, and that is good enough for me.
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Guojing
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Your nick was Oscar in the past correct?
Do you ever remember a time, not too long ago, in this forum, where you actually change your mind and agreed with me that when Paul said tongues are for a sign to unbelievers, it could only refer to unbelieving Jews and not any other unbelievers?
If you have now changed your mind again and decided to disagree with me again about that, do have the courage to say so.
I will be fine with that, since we are always free to change our mind as many times as we want.
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