The Order of Salavation

Doug Brents · Mar 21, 2023

MMXX said:
In this case the group is most of Protestantism. And really if one doesn't believe in justification by grace alone through faith alone then they are denying and negating an essential point of the Protestant Reformation.

Grace alone through faith alone is a great statement if defined correctly. Most, as already stated, define faith as a simple mental assent. It is so much more than that as to make that the same as a lie.

Faith REQUIRES action or it is dead and useless. So if you include repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38) as part of the faith required to bring grace to you (Eph 2:8-9), then it is a true statement. If you treat faith as mental assent only, then it becomes a lie.

MMXX said:
There's a difference between what God said and a particular interpretation of what God said.

Very true. But as I have shown with the extensive and varied passages that demonstrate what I have said, it requires mental gymnastics bordering on outright defiance of God to dispute that baptism is the point at which salvation is received.

MMXX said:
Are you saying that Christians who don't believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, are going to Hell?

I am saying that the Bible, God’s Word, says that baptism is the point at which the Holy Spirit unites us with Jesus in His death and resurrection (Col 2:11-14). If we are not United with Christ, then we are not Born Again. And only the Born Again will enter Heaven (John 3:5).

Ceallaigh · Mar 21, 2023

Doug Brents said:
Grace alone through faith alone is a great statement if defined correctly. Most, as already stated, define faith as a simple mental assent. It is so much more than that as to make that the same as a lie.

Faith REQUIRES action or it is dead and useless. So if you include repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38) as part of the faith required to bring grace to you (Eph 2:8-9), then it is a true statement. If you treat faith as mental assent only, then it becomes a lie.

Not according to the Protestantism. Sola Fide is the canon of the Protestant Reformation. Sola Fide means that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action.

AbbaLove · Mar 21, 2023

Doug Brents said:
Satan is a masterful liar, and he has convinced a huge portion of those who call themselves Christians that they can be saved without obedience to God.

Did you really mean to say, "obedience to thee Church" ?

Parishioners generally consider themselves to be a 'good' person; although Ray Comfort might convince them otherwise. He believes that the Ten Commandments are still as valid today as ever. Except perhaps for honoring the Sabbath on the 7th day. The Jerusalem Council (Peter as spokesperson) made allowances for gentile Christians based as much or more on "grace and faith" than on "obedience".

8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Was it inevitable that this less restrictive gentile Christian statement ... led to what is now referrred to as 21st century seeker-sensitive Christianity?

Is it possible that the reason Peter didn't stress Jewish obedience because it was a Pharisee yoke that he considered unbearable? When Jesus said His "yoke was easy and his burden was light" did He later realize that His yoke wasn't so easy ... “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me."

MMXX said:
That's what every sect that sprang forth in the 19th century says. Satan brought down most of Christianity and they're the only ones who know the truth.

MMXX said:

My mindset was within the boundaries of Protestantism when I wrote that.

Click to expand...

The Protestant Reformation was a God-Sent if only for making available a Bible for the masses (Gutenberg). When you imply all Protestant denominations are sects suggests that you a good faithful follower of Catholicism.

Doug Brents · Mar 21, 2023

MMXX said:
Not according to the Protestantism. Sola Fide is the canon of the Protestant Reformation. Sola Fide means that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action.

Is this a Bible discussion board? Or are we here to debate man’s misunderstanding of God’s Word? I will not debate protestantism’s misunderstanding of what faith is. Scripture’s definition and examples of faith is far more important than any group of man’s.

Dah'veed · Mar 21, 2023

Dah'veed said:
For God is faithful to His word—He will always provide the way out as well, so that you will be able to overcome temptation; 1 Cor 10:13

Through death, Christ rendered powerless him who had the power of death—that is, the devil— to free all those held in bondage...
for He does provide deliverance to the seed of Abraham. Having become a merciful and faithful High Priest in things related to God;
Therefore, He Himself is able to provide a way of escape for those who are being tempted; Heb 2:14-18

Doug Brents said:
Indeed! But the vast majority of ministers that I hear preach the Gospel preach Satan’s false message of salvation at the point of mental assent.

The devil and his cohorts have been known to deal deceitfully, hence, he has blinded the minds of unbelievers, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Cor 4:2-4

Doug Brents said:
If you are looking for it, and if you are walking in the Light (which requires personal study of His Word so you know His will).

Needless to say, walking in darkness, separated from the life of God, is not adhering to the will of God. Ephesians 4:15-18

Doug Brents said:
If not, then you will easily be led astray by Satan’s good sounding lies. Remember, Satan knows the words of the Bible better than any man who has ever lived except Jesus.

But remember, it's God's prerogative to give them a change of heart that they may know the truth as it is in Christ, so that they come to their senses and escape the devil's delusions. 2 Tim 2:25-26

Doug Brents said:
And changing just one word, or taking a phrase out of context can completely change its meaning.

Therefore, believers, be certain to confirm your call and election, then you will never stumble; for an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:10-11

Ceallaigh · Mar 21, 2023

Doug Brents said:
Is this a Bible discussion board? Or are we here to debate man’s misunderstanding of God’s Word? I will not debate protestantism’s misunderstanding of what faith is. Scripture’s definition and examples of faith is far more important than any group of man’s.

This place is called Christian Forums, so Christianity is a primary topic of discussion. This is the Soteriology section of CF, so Christian theological interpretation of Scripture is also a primary topic of discussion here.

And if you're going to reject both Protestantism and Catholicism, you're essentially rejecting Christianity as a whole.

Ceallaigh · Mar 21, 2023

AbbaLove said:
The Protestant Reformation was a God-Sent if only for making available a Bible for the masses (Gutenberg). When you imply all Protestant denominations are sects suggests that you a good faithful follower of Catholicism.

I implied no such thing. What I said is a lot of sects, factions and cults sprang up in the 19th century. Christian and pseudo-Christian sects of unconventional heterodox and heretical beliefs practices and teaching, existed long before the Protestant Reformation as they're talked about in the New Testament.

As for what I said about Protestantism and Catholicism, did you purposely edit my post to misrepresent what I said?

"My mindset was within the boundaries of Protestantism when I wrote that. You bring up a very good point. I'd have to study Catholic reasoning regarding that more, before commenting on it."

Meaning I was only thinking about the majority Protestant consensus regarding baptism. Obviously since I have to study the Catholic view of baptism, I'm not a Catholic. In other words, I was only considering views on baptism from my Protestant perspective.

Chaleb · Mar 22, 2023

AbbaLove said:
What i don't understand is how "one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

Salvation is Jesus on the Cross.....He said..."it is finished"

Now, when you read 2 Corinthians 5:19, it teaches that God was in Christ (on the Cross) and now sin is dealt with for everyone, BY the "one time eternal sacrifice of God on the Cross".

But here is the CONDITION that God requires so that you can RECEIVE this Reconciliation that Jesus has died to provide the "world", 2000 yrs ago., as John 3:16-17

= You have to repent of unbelief and receive Christ as your Savior.
You have to hear the GOSPEL.....as "faith come by HEARING">....that Jesus died for your sin, with requires you to ADMIT you are a sinner, and that is when you have believed.
Then, receiving Christ as your Savior is to Give God your Faith in Christ.
He THEN gives you that reconciliation........ 2 Corinthians 5:19

AbbaLove · Mar 22, 2023

... Salvation is Jesus on the Cross.....He said..."it is finished" (by Chaleb)

AbbaLove said:
Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
What i don't understand is how "one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
After nearly 2000 years there were millions and milions of people that missed out on the blessng of justification. WHY when so great a Gift in comparison to Adam's disobedience that so few have accepted this Gift over 2000 years?

If the same question(s) were asked by 4th year seminary students to their Professor would your reply explain why evil is still so prevalent in all the world?

Sin spread to the whole world because of Adam's diobedience. Why didn't His Love (Jesus' sacrifice) have a greater postive influence in the whole world ... than the negative influence of Adam's sin has on the world? Such was another question by a 4th year seminary student to a most distinquished Professor emeritus. How would you answer this question in light of the following scripture ...

17 Now the crowd that was with Him when He called Lazarus from the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to spread the word.

18 Many people, because they had heard that He had performed this sign, went out to meet Him..

19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!”

Doug Brents · Mar 22, 2023

MMXX said:
This place is called Christian Forums, so Christianity is a primary topic of discussion. This is the Soteriology section of CF, so Christian theological interpretation of Scripture is also a primary topic of discussion here.

I see. That is not what you were talking about in your previous post. I am not here to discuss protestantism, nor am I here to discuss any other sect or group. I discuss the Bible, and the proper understanding of God’s Word. It makes no difference to me if a false doctrine has been held since 70AD (there were false doctrines already at that time). If it is false, it is false, regardless of when it came into being.

MMXX said:
And if you're going to reject both Protestantism and Catholicism, you're essentially rejecting Christianity as a whole.

Catholicism is not part of Christianity, they are papist, and have no place in Christian discussion.

Most protestants began with sound doctrine (although many did not), but many have since gone off the rails with far fetched interpretations like “belief only”.

AbbaLove · Mar 22, 2023

Doug Brents said:
Catholicism is not part of Christianity, they are papist, and have no place in Christian discussion.

There are more than a few religious Christians that would agree with you. That said CF doesn't consider Catholicism to be a Christian sect/cult or it wouldn't be included in these Christian forums. That said i've never been a Catholic nor will i ever convert to Cathliicism.

In Heidi Baker''s book Compelled By LOVE she quotes Mother Theresa at the beginning or end of every chapter. Heidi has been referred to as the Protestant Mother Theresa by Randy Clark. Signs and miraculous wonders have followed Heidi's ministry in Mozambique with blind eyes opened, the lame walking, food miracuously multiplied to feed many and the dead raised back to life.

Dah'veed · Mar 22, 2023

Chaleb said:
Salvation is Jesus on the Cross.....He said..."it is finished"
Now, when you read 2 Corinthians 5:19, it teaches that God was in Christ (on the Cross) and now sin is dealt with for everyone, BY the "one time eternal sacrifice of God on the Cross".
But here is the CONDITION that God requires so that you can RECEIVE this Reconciliation that Jesus has died to provide the "world", 2000 yrs ago., as John 3:16-17
= You have to repent of unbelief and receive Christ as your Savior.
You have to hear the GOSPEL.....as "faith come by HEARING">....

Having heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ —in whom having also believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Eph 1:13

Everyone who does what is right is accepted by Him. You know The word which God sent to the people of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all ...

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. Acts 10:35-44

Chaleb · Mar 23, 2023

Dah'veed said:
Everyone who does what is right is accepted by Him.

never.

You can never be accepted by God based on anything you do, as all your works are "filthy rags" and self righteousness, if you try to shove these in God's Face as "here is all my good works God, now ACCEPT ME".

Cain tried that, and God told Cain..>"GET OUT".

Jesus said of these law keeping commandment keeping self righteous religious people who whine endlessly about "the law" and "commandments".. and who trust in water to wash away their sin....

"depart from me, I never knew you".

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

God is love, but He also becomes wrathful when people suppress the truth so they can sin. So God's favor is based upon us obeying His words.

1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Amen, God punishes those He loves just like most parents.

Doug Brents · Mar 23, 2023

Chaleb said:
never.

You can never be accepted by God based on anything you do, as all your works are "filthy rags" and self righteousness, if you try to shove these in God's Face as "here is all my good works God, now ACCEPT ME".

Cain tried that, and God told Cain..>"GET OUT".

Jesus said of these law keeping commandment keeping self righteous religious people who whine endlessly about "the law" and "commandments"..

You are correct down to here.

Chaleb said:
and who trust in water to wash away their sin....

"depart from me, I never knew you".

This is not accurate with Scripture.

Acts 22:16 makes it clear that in baptism sins are indeed washed away. And this is born out in 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, and Mark 16:16. There can be no doubt that it is during baptism that we are cleansed, as Rom 7:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 both say. But this is only a condition set for the reception of cleansing, not the cause of the cleansing.

FutureAndAHope · Mar 23, 2023

Chaleb said:
never.

You can never be accepted by God based on anything you do, as all your works are "filthy rags" and self righteousness, if you try to shove these in God's Face as "here is all my good works God, now ACCEPT ME".

Cain tried that, and God told Cain..>"GET OUT".

Jesus said of these law keeping commandment keeping self righteous religious people who whine endlessly about "the law" and "commandments".. and who trust in water to wash away their sin....

"depart from me, I never knew you".

We don't present our good works to God. We present the cross.

However, both of the scriptures you mention, suggest good works are necessary.

a) with Cain, God said "if you do well, will you not be accepted".

Gen 4:6-7 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

b) When Jesus said "I never knew you", it is talking about lawless, disobedient people.

Mat 7:15-23 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. I Never Knew You "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Chaleb · Mar 24, 2023

Doug Brents said:
no doubt that it is during baptism that we are cleansed,

If water could wash you sin away, then instead of confessing your next sin or doing any penance, just take a shower, Doug.
Their go your sin, right down the drain.

Or, you could try to take a shower in your Church if you believe the water in a Church is "magical".

Listen, the baptism with the Spirit...in the Spirit, is the "washing of water by the word".

Jesus said, "i have made you CLEAN by the words i have spoken"..

Not the city water supply, Doug.

Chaleb · Mar 24, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
However, both of the scriptures you mention, suggest good works are necessary.

I had a longer post written to you yesterday, and when i tried to send it, the website crashed and i lost it.

So, here is a shorter one.... but just as accurate.

Let me show you a diaper baby believer vs, a more mature believer.

Paul defines the new believer : Hebrews 6:1

If you read the verse, it talks about the immature believer worrying about repenting and confessing, and similar.

Now, here is the more mature believer.

Romans 6:1

Notice they are not confessing sin or chasing Moses Law and commandments.
Instead, they have a MIND (the Renewed mind) that understands their SonShip Position in God. "IN Christ".

Doug Brents · Mar 24, 2023

Chaleb said:
If water could wash you sin away, then instead of confessing your next sin or doing any penance, just take a shower, Doug.
Their go your sin, right down the drain.

In this statement you show a lack of understanding of what baptism is. Firstly, baptism means “immersion”. Sprinkling, or pouring a little water over someone does not accomplish immersion. Further, as Peter says in 1 Pet 3:21, baptism is not a removal of dirt from the body, but a cleansing of the conscience and removal of sin from our soul (also Col 2:11-14). And it is not something that needs to be done over and over. Once we are In Christ, we receive a continual cleansing from sin as long as we are walking in the Light (1 John 1:7).

Chaleb said:
Or, you could try to take a shower in your Church if you believe the water in a Church is "magical".

No, there is no “Magic” in the water. Any water will do as long as the body can be immersed into it.

Chaleb said:
Listen, the baptism with the Spirit...in the Spirit, is the "washing of water by the word".

Then why did Saul need to “arise” quickly in Acts 22:16? Could the Spirit not reach him there in his seat? And the eunuch in Acts 8, why did he ask to be baptized when they elders passing by some water? And why did he and Phillip go down into the water and come back up? And 1 Pet 3:21 clearly says that the water of baptism is likened to the water of the Flood, and it saves us. Clearly, New Testament baptism is in water, not by the Spirit (although, as Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 say, it is the Spirit who takes action during water baptism to remove our sins and unite us with Christ).

Chaleb said:
Jesus said, "i have made you CLEAN by the words i have spoken"..

Not the city water supply, Doug.

This applied to the Apostles, and occurred before Jesus’ death. Before His death He could have made any changes He wanted, and they would be done. But after His death, His covenant was locked in stone and sealed in blood. The thief on the cross was forgiven by Christ before His death, and so he did not require anything more. Today, we must obey His commands as found in Scripture, since He is now in Heaven and we don’t get to have Him walk among us.

Chaleb · Mar 24, 2023

Doug Brents said:
In this statement you show a lack of understanding of what baptism is. Firstly, baptism means “immersion”

Well, im new to this forum but im old to "theology".
This particular forum is mostly Catholics and Calvinists.
So, there was a 50/50 chance that You are a Catholic, as Catholics are all about "the law". and "commandments".

So, when i hear a person teaching "we must keep commandments and law" but does not make the distinction between the CROSS as God's Salvation, and that law and commandment keeping that is your WORKS..... then, im not hearing the person understanding the difference between

Their Discipleship, which is that law and commandment keeping and that "present your body as a living sacrifice"..

VS

God's Salvation, that is ONLY The Cross of Christ, the Blood Atonement, and the "Gift of Salvation".

This : John 14:6

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