What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]

What is your Eschatological viewpoint?


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Marilyn C

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You mean Israel, right? Yes, and it has been repeatedly stated here by myself, the church today is acting as Old Testament Israel did in almost every way. You even have the dispensationalists telling you that national Israel is God's Elect people forever because they are caught up in that SAME BLIND ALLEGIANCE to a building and those who need its security in the land. I have repeatedly warned with Scripture about the similarity of the troubles of the Old Testament Israel and the New Testament Israel, the church. Both started out well and both fell into decline through rebellion and disobedience. I do not think that is accidental that both Israels fall due to the very same ills from within. Do you think God is trying to tell His people something?

Not many people here will hear.
So, are you saying that the Lord, the Head of His Body is not able to build and mature His called out ones? And are you measuring His work by man`s public meetings?
 
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TribulationSigns

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So, are you saying that the Lord, the Head of His Body is not able to build and mature His called out ones? And are you measuring His work by man`s public meetings?

What does the Scripture say?

1Pe 2:4-10
(4) To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
(5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
(7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
(8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

This is how God built His nation. It is not physical.
 
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TribulationSigns

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What God promised Abraham, the nation of Israel and many nations of faith, have been partly fulfilled and remain to be completely fulfilled in the future. Changing the meaning of "Israel" will not help that, in my view.

You will be disappointed.

1Pe 2:4-10
(4) To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
(5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
(7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
(8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

What holy nation is this? Its the Church! Like Christ warned, you need to read Scripture, if you RECEIVE it:

Mat 21:42-43
(42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
(43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

God took kingdom representation from Old Testament Israel and gave it to a holy nation WHERE He is NOW a head cornerstone of that building! Building with what? A living stone - Elect! Not physical stones. No where in Scripture teaches that God will deal with national Israel again with national salvation for the Jews. That is the wishful thinking (and false) teaching of the Dispensationalists.
 
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Marilyn C

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You will be disappointed.

1Pe 2:4-10
(4) To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
(5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
(7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
(8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

What holy nation is this? Its the Church! Like Christ warned, you need to read Scripture, if you RECEIVE it:

Mat 21:42-43
(42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
(43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

God took kingdom representation from Old Testament Israel and gave it to a holy nation WHERE He is NOW a head cornerstone of that building! Building with what? A living stone - Elect! Not physical stones. No where in Scripture teaches that God will deal with national Israel again with national salvation for the Jews. That is the wishful thinking (and false) teaching of the Dispensationalists.
Zion there is the heavenly Zion, (Heb. 12: 22)
 
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TribulationSigns

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Zion there is the heavenly Zion, (Heb. 12: 22)

The Elect are part of that city, IN CHRIST! Not a physical city. I see that you still deny what Matthew 21:42-43 and 1st Peter 2:4-10 talk about. It is not a physical city
 
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Marilyn C

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The Elect are part of that city, IN CHRIST! Not a physical city. I see that you still deny what Matthew 21:42-43 and 1st Peter 2:4-10 talk about. It is not a physical city
Matt. 21: 42 & 43 talks about an earthly nation whereas 1 Peter 2: 4 - 10 talks about royal priesthood - kingpriests, (Rev. 1: 6). And those kingpriests can only operate in the highest heaven. On earth the offices of the king and priest are separate, and it is only in the highest with Christ that the two offices are together.
 
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RandyPNW

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You will be disappointed.

1Pe 2:4-10
(4) To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
(5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
(7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
(8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

What holy nation is this? Its the Church! Like Christ warned, you need to read Scripture, if you RECEIVE it:
Quite simply and obviously, Peter was speaking to literal Israel, in particular to believers in Israel. Peter had not given up on the hope of Israel to return to being a godly nation once more. In the meantime he was encouraging the faithful remnant to continue believing in what God had called Israel to be.
Mat 21:42-43
(42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
(43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

God took kingdom representation from Old Testament Israel and gave it to a holy nation WHERE He is NOW a head cornerstone of that building! Building with what? A living stone - Elect! Not physical stones. No where in Scripture teaches that God will deal with national Israel again with national salvation for the Jews. That is the wishful thinking (and false) teaching of the Dispensationalists.
The promise of Israel's national salvation is inferred in Acts 1.6-7 and theologically spelled out by Paul in Rom 9-11.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Quite simply and obviously, Peter was speaking to literal Israel, in particular to believers in Israel. Peter had not given up on the hope of Israel to return to being a godly nation once more. In the meantime he was encouraging the faithful remnant to continue believing in what God had called Israel to be.

Incorrect. Jesus was talking about Gentiles - people in the time past - not part of Covenant Israel but NOW are people of God. God is not talking about national Isreal here.
The promise of Israel's national salvation is inferred in Acts 1.6-7

Wrong again. Christ did not talk about national salvation for national Israel here. You need to read the context:
And remember what the Lord told them when they asked about the kingdom of God, while still mistakenly thinking that it was an earthly Kingdom and reign?

Acts 1:6-8
  • "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
  • And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
  • But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
Again, that word [dunamis] or power that the Kingdom would come with. The disciples were talking about the timing of a "perceived" earthly Kingdom, and Christ refers them rather to Pentecost and the coming power of the TRUE kingdom that would come. The Kingdom, which is Spiritual, and which they will see not many days hence. It is then that they see the Kingdom coming with dunamis, with power wherewith they will extend that kingdom to the ends of the earth.

So verily, they saw the Son of man coming into his kingdom with power. Because when He sent His Holy Spirit as the Comforter, it was then that both Christ and His Kingdom were "revealed" to them, and made their abode with them. And indeed with us.

John 14:16-21

  • "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
  • Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
  • I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
  • Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
  • At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
  • He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."[/b]
The world couldn't see the Son of man coming in His kingdom, but even as Christ said they would, they saw Him! How? In spirit and in truth, for the Kingdom of God cometh not with observation. And in Acts 2 God demonstrated the son of man coming in His Kingdom to reign 1000 years with Power. And they were witnesses to it and to Him, to the ends of the earth. ..As are we who see Him and His kingdom here and now.

and theologically spelled out by Paul in Rom 9-11.

The question is what is Israel?

Exposition of Romans Chapter 11

So All Israel Shall be Saved
 
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TribulationSigns

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Matt. 21: 42 & 43 talks about an earthly nation whereas 1 Peter 2: 4 - 10 talks about royal priesthood - kingpriests, (Rev. 1: 6). And those kingpriests can only operate in the highest heaven. On earth the offices of the king and priest are separate, and it is only in the highest with Christ that the two offices are together.

According to Matthew 21:42-43, the nation Israel represented the Old Testament congregation of Israel. The kingdom representation was removed from them and was handed over to the New Testament congregation of Israel, where it produces fruit where the church is bringing salvation to the world. The New Testament born-again Christians are the kings and priests of THIS SPIRITUAL KINGDOM with the responsibility of preaching the gospel. It is still ONE ISRAEL, just the kingdom representation has changed.
 
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Marilyn C

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According to Matthew 21:42-43, the nation Israel represented the Old Testament congregation of Israel. The kingdom representation was removed from them and was handed over to the New Testament congregation of Israel, where it produces fruit where the church is bringing salvation to the world. The New Testament born-again Christians are the kings and priests of THIS SPIRITUAL KINGDOM with the responsibility of preaching the gospel. It is still ONE ISRAEL, just the kingdom representation has changed.
The Body of Christ has a higher calling than Israel.

`I press towards the goal for the prize of the `on top` calling in Christ Jesus.` (Phil. 3: 14)

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)
 
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TribulationSigns

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The Body of Christ has a higher calling than Israel.

`I press towards the goal for the prize of the `on top` calling in Christ Jesus.` (Phil. 3: 14)

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

You really need to study the Covenant Israel, in Christ, which is made up of all Saints from the Old and New Testaments. They all will sit with Christ on His Throne. There will not be two separate groups of people, one on Earth and another in heaven, which is a lie of Dispensationalism.

Please read the articles provided.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Matt. 21: 42 & 43 talks about an earthly nation whereas 1 Peter 2: 4 - 10 talks about royal priesthood - kingpriests, (Rev. 1: 6). And those kingpriests can only operate in the highest heaven. On earth the offices of the king and priest are separate, and it is only in the highest with Christ that the two offices are together.
I don't know what you are talking about here. I see that you referenced Revelation 1:6. Let's take a look at that.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen

Notice here that John, while he was alive and writing to living Christians at the time, said that Jesus Christ "has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". That means John and other living Christians at the time had already been made "a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". So, with that in mind, how are you coming to the conclusion that these "kingpriests can only operate in the highest heaven"? John and his fellow living Christians at the time were "kingpriests" and were obviously not operating in the highest heaven at the time.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I don't know what you are talking about here. I see that you referenced Revelation 1:6. Let's take a look at that.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen

And note it is in past tense. Meaning that Christ has already established His Kingdom and has made His People Kings and Priests in this kingdom with the power to preach Gospel to the world.

Act 1:6-9
(6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
(7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
(9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Christians did not know when it started until PENTECOST came. That is when they will receive the power with the Holy Ghost to go to the ends of the Earth to preach the Gospel. They are appointed as kings and priest of Christ's kingdom, right now and have been since Pentecost. Not in the future.
 
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RandyPNW

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Incorrect. Jesus was talking about Gentiles - people in the time past - not part of Covenant Israel but NOW are people of God. God is not talking about national Isreal here.
I'm not incorrect--you just disagree with me. It's a disagreement over what Peter meant when he addressed *literal Israel* in his letter.

1 Peter 1.1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.


Now, you may disagree with who Peter was addressing, but you may *not* say I'm incorrect that Peter above is addressing "God's elect, exiles scattered throughout."
Wrong again. Christ did not talk about national salvation for national Israel here. You need to read the context:
And remember what the Lord told them when they asked about the kingdom of God, while still mistakenly thinking that it was an earthly Kingdom and reign?

Acts 1:6-8
  • "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
  • And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
  • But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
Again, that word [dunamis] or power that the Kingdom would come with. The disciples were talking about the timing of a "perceived" earthly Kingdom, and Christ refers them rather to Pentecost and the coming power of the TRUE kingdom that would come. The Kingdom, which is Spiritual, and which they will see not many days hence. It is then that they see the Kingdom coming with dunamis, with power wherewith they will extend that kingdom to the ends of the earth.

So verily, they saw the Son of man coming into his kingdom with power. Because when He sent His Holy Spirit as the Comforter, it was then that both Christ and His Kingdom were "revealed" to them, and made their abode with them. And indeed with us.

John 14:16-21

  • "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
  • Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
  • I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
  • Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
  • At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
  • He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."[/b]
The world couldn't see the Son of man coming in His kingdom, but even as Christ said they would, they saw Him! How? In spirit and in truth, for the Kingdom of God cometh not with observation. And in Acts 2 God demonstrated the son of man coming in His Kingdom to reign 1000 years with Power. And they were witnesses to it and to Him, to the ends of the earth. ..As are we who see Him and His kingdom here and now.
You're dancing around the point. This isn't an exploration of what the "Kingdom" means. Rather, it regards the question: When will national Israel be restored?

Anybody with understanding of OT Prophecy will recognize what this meant. Israel had been subjected to national exile in foreign countries. Restoration took place under the Persian Empire. National Restoration would be needed again after the Roman exile that Jesus predicted in his Olivet Discourse.

In fact Israel had come under the dominion of pagan Rome. And so, Jesus' disciples recognized in Jesus the source of Israel's deliverance. They just didn't know *when* it would happen.
The question should never be, What is Israel? To go there is to ignore what we already know, that Israel was a literal nation descended from Abraham, dedicated by God to be a godly nation, bringing forth the Messiah.

I understand that you view things differently. I'm not opposed to you following your conscience on these matters. But I have to follow mine, as well.
 
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Marilyn C

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I don't know what you are talking about here. I see that you referenced Revelation 1:6. Let's take a look at that.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen

Notice here that John, while he was alive and writing to living Christians at the time, said that Jesus Christ "has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". That means John and other living Christians at the time had already been made "a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". So, with that in mind, how are you coming to the conclusion that these "kingpriests can only operate in the highest heaven"? John and his fellow living Christians at the time were "kingpriests" and were obviously not operating in the highest heaven at the time.
Yes, perhaps `in the Body,` would be more accurate. However, to fully operate as a kingpriest we will need to be in the third heaven. Other realms have kings and priests separate.
 
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Marilyn C

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You really need to study the Covenant Israel, in Christ, which is made up of all Saints from the Old and New Testaments. They all will sit with Christ on His Throne. There will not be two separate groups of people, one on Earth and another in heaven, which is a lie of Dispensationalism.

Please read the articles provided.
Please give scriptures for your view that the OT and NT saints are all together.

And actually there are three realms with three rulerships under the Lord as promised.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I'm not incorrect--you just disagree with me. It's a disagreement over what Peter meant when he addressed *literal Israel* in his letter.

1 Peter 1.1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.


Now, you may disagree with who Peter was addressing, but you may *not* say I'm incorrect that Peter above is addressing "God's elect, exiles scattered throughout."

They are CHRISTIANS, whether Jews or Gentiles, filled with the Holy Spirit, exiled into neighboring countries as their churches are expanding. Nothing to do with "literal Israel" or "National Israel!"

So yes, you are incorrect in your interpretations.
You're dancing around the point. This isn't an exploration of what the "Kingdom" means. Rather, it regards the question: When will national Israel be restored?

There will be NO kingdom restoration for nation Israel! The kingdom was restored IN New Testament Church where the kingdom was given to!

Mat 21:42-43
(42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
(43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Joh 2:18-21

(18) Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
(19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
(21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

The temple represents Christ's body, the congregation. At that time, it was Israel as Old Testament representation. But He told the JEWS that they will be the ones to destroy the temple (Daniel 9:24) and in three days, Christ raise it up. What congregation that Christ raise? New Testament Congregation of Israel, the Church! This is the congregation that received the kingdom representation. No where in Scripture that talks about future kingdom restoration for the nation Israel again. So you got the wrong Israel for restoration!
Anybody with understanding of OT Prophecy will recognize what this meant. Israel had been subjected to national exile in foreign countries. Restoration took place under the Persian Empire. National Restoration would be needed again after the Roman exile that Jesus predicted in his Olivet Discourse.

Speculation. Where is scripture?
The question should never be, What is Israel? To go there is to ignore what we already know, that Israel was a literal nation descended from Abraham, dedicated by God to be a godly nation, bringing forth the Messiah.

You misunderstood. Abraham means "father of a multitude," meaning not only the Jews of the Old Testament but also the Gentiles of the New Testament in Christ. Dispensationalism does not address all issues concerning the biblical covenants. In fact, they force the Covenants to pertain to a whole nation when GOd HImself unambiguously declared that only a remnant of it would see that Covenant promise fulfilled. Just like a remnant of Gentiles. For example, Abram was their patriarchal father IN CHRIST and Abram is OUR patriarchal father in CHRIST! Both Gentile and Jew are the SEED of Abram THROUGH Christ. And those without Christ "ARE NOT" the seeded of Abraham according to God's Word. Dispensationalism does not "hear" these words of God:

John 8:39-43
(39) They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
(40) But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
(41) Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
(42) Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
(43) Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

This is the AUTHORITY of the Word, not the authority of Dispensationalist teachers. Moreover, they fail to acknowledge the Biblical record that ht Covenant with Israel has been and is being fully fulfilled in the inclusion of the Gentiles into the commonwealth of Israel. And thirdly, they fail to address how the church or congregation can be a separate people of God, separate children of God, separate from Israel when God's Word said they were and are grafted into the Olive Tree representing the Covenant with Israel. They obviously are not a separate tree, but ONE tree all being sustained by the SAME ROOT that bares them. One Covenant Israel.

So then, Dispensationalism is the evangelical theological system that "DOES NOT" address all issues concerning the biblical covenants, Israel, and the Church.

The only true religion is the religion of Christ as Lord and Savior of our lives. One religion, one body, one faith, one Christ. Not a body of Jews and a separate body of Gentiles, but one Holy Body made up of all peoples from all over the world who serve Christ.

Colossians 3:11
  • "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."
How many ways does God's word have to say it before Dispensationalists receive it as authoritative? Because they effectively say, "You are wrong God, there is Jew and there is Greek and they are not all one but two separate groups and God will restore the kingdom to nation Israel for the Jews." NO, There is only one Congregation made up of the children of God, the bride of Christ. There are no Jew and Gentile believers.



I understand that you view things differently. I'm not opposed to you following your conscience on these matters. But I have to follow mine, as well.

I can testify with Scripture that your interpretation of the nation Israel to be restored as kingdom again in the future isn't correct. I make no bone about it.
 
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TribulationSigns

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There is a common belief among churches that "God is not totally finished with the nation Israel" or that "After the church being raptured out, God will save Israel once again." But it's a belief that is borne out of either a misunderstanding, wishful thinking, human desire, or misapplication of scripture. As far as the nation of Israel goes, it was used as a figure or corporate representation of the children of God (as the visible church today is). But at any time in history, only a remnant of that body were truly saved. After the first advent of Christ, that external covenant nation body fell, never to rise again. The New Covenant with Israel concerns a new dispensation and body of Jews and Gentiles alike. Israel never ceased and those of the eternal Covenant nation (the apostles and disciples) continue on in this New Testament representation of the body of Christ. It was only the external Covenant nation that fell. The Kingdom representation was taken away from the Jewish nation because of unbelief, and it will never return to them, as that would be confusion. As far as the kingdom goes, Israel the nation was brought to spiritual desolation at the cross. The reason so many do not comprehend this "truth" is because they have been brainwashed by evangelicals and church traditions, or they are political rather than Spiritual and thus do not comprehend the nature of the restoration. Like the Preterists, Dispenalitionists look for Spiritual truths in physical places (like the nation Israel, AD 70, earthly reigns, physical temples and kingdoms) when Christ taught in allegories, Parables, and spiritual portraits!

Luke 17:20-21
  • "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
  • Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
The Kingdom wasn't coming that they would physically see it (ie. buildings) as the Jewish people thought. And that's the same fables that Premillennialists are teaching!! Christ taught of a different Kingdom. His kingdom was not like the world's Kingdom, His Temple was not made with hands, Israel's desolation was not by Romans, and His prophecy is not defined by secular historians. The Kingdom Christ came to rule in is inside each and every "true" believer when the Spirit of Christ comes to dwell there.

Christ taught the Spiritual in His parables, but the Jews couldn't hear them. So likewise, many in the church today cannot hear them when I preach with God's Word here. It's not because they are not intelligent, it's sad to say that usually, it's because they don't have the Spirit of truth to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God. It's the Spirit of truth that reveals what is correct, not people! Just as Christ said "unambiguously" that it was for this reason that he brought the word in parabolic form (Luke 8:10). It was so that seeing some might not see, and hearing some might not understand. Our Lord made no bones about it. So when professed Christians ask, "if God meant that, why didn't He say it plainly," We can retort that "actually, He did!" But according to who it was given to RECEIVE the mysteries, that is who will "see" and who will "understand." To the rest, it is done in parables that they would miss the truth. As far as the nation Israel, consider wisely and carefully how clearly Christ spoke of their fate. It is not a temporary judgment, but until Christ returns. So you need to read whole context again wisely

Matthew 21:33-46
  • "Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
  • And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
  • And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
  • Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
  • But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
  • But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
  • And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
  • When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
  • They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
  • Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
  • Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
  • And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
  • And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
  • But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."
The rulers of Israel "perceived" that Christ spoke of them, but they couldn't RECEIVE His truth. They instead resented the truth because they didn't have the "Spirit of Truth," and they hated Christ because He dared to speak correctly and rebuke them. Just as those today do when the truth about the congregation or eschatology is declared, even on this forum! As Christ said, if they hated Him, they will surely hate you.

Plainly we read (if we will receive it) that the Kingdom was taken from Israel at the cross and given to the New Testament congregation. Are we to suppose that it's going to be taken from then now and given back? NOT going to happen! Because of no where does this doctrine written in scripture? It is now the New Testament church that is the kingdom of God representation, and when that church falls, it will be the end of the world. And despite untenable ideas by Premillennarians that the Kingdom will be restored to the nation Israel (which means it would have to be taken from the church), that view is antithetical to all that Christ says. Do you know why? Because Christ said, "for the Stone that they rejected for the house of God, has become the head corner stone in another building". It's ABSURD to think that Christ will go back to the first Temple building after being rejected, huh?! Or that Christ simply "postponed" the salvation program of Israel, which is a theory invented by Premillennrians to support their doctrines. Think about it! Shall the husband go back to the first wife? It is an impossible idea! This mixing of hot and cold is a compromise of old Judaic doctrines with doctrines of Christianity and calling it Premillennialism (and Preterism). It is a lukewarm mixture that shall never be what God has said. God will spur such mixture from His mouth, because it's not His word and doesn't belong there.

Having said that, this doesn't make the Jewish people second-class citizens, nor does it mean that Christians have something against Jewish people as some narrow-minded theologians' charge (ie. replacement theology). Jewish people are no different than anyone else, and they are given just as much opportunity to become Christians as the Ethiopians, Italians, Arabs, Chinese, South Americans, or any other type of people. There is no bias and there is "no difference" in Christ's kingdom. But you see some people don't want to have all saved on an equal footing, they have the misguided idea that because God called Israel the chosen people in the Old Testament, that this means there is a difference and the Jewish person are above everyone else. They surmise that all Israel being saved speaks of a political nation or people of a certain genealogy. But that is not how God views the chosen people, as He is no respecter of persons. And again it gets back to, "if we will RECEIVE it" or if we will continue on in our Church traditions about Israel. Is there a difference? Are there two bodies of Christ? Are there two kingdoms of God, one Jewish and one Gentile? Two congregations of God? What does God said??

Romans 10:11-13
  • "For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
  • For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
  • For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
There is only one Olive tree Israel, not two. So that it is an untenable position to claim that there are two bodies, Jew and Gentile, when God clearly said that the Gentile branches were broken off their own tree, and then grafted into the Covenanted Israel tree. The time for the Jewish branches to be "grafted back in" is this millennial Kingdom period, for that is the reign of Christ. Not afterward as some in their confusion allege. Because no more will Israel the nation be the fruitful grape vine or the fruitful fig tree of the Kingdom. These are the mysteries Christ was teaching. Consider the parable Christ illustrated in His cursing the fig tree.

Matthew 21:19
  • "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away."
The Fig tree represents Israel (Hosea 9:10), the fruit represents good works, and Christ came to Israel expecting good works and found none. Thus he cursed Israel that they would no longer be the fruitful tree "FOREVER." NO chance of kingdom restoration for cursed Israel! Israel thought (like some Christians today) that because of their genealogy or heritage, they were God's special children forever, but God made it clear that God was able to raise up children of the stones (Luke 3:8-9). Their Jewishness did not save them, only the Grace of God can. Don't forget that!

Sadly, what many seem to forget is that it is God that draws men to Christ. So then, if the purpose was that all Israel (the nation) was to be saved, then they would have been saved 2000 years ago. God is sovereign and Omniscient, so there wouldn't be any postponement because the Jews rejected Christ. Was God a man that he didn't already know that? Was God a man that he had to change plans after the Jews thwarted his attempts to save Israel? No, there was no postponement. Israel is being saved, just as all other nations are. A Remnant chose by Grace.

Selah!
 
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keras

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There is a common belief among churches that "God is not totally finished with the nation Israel" or that "After the church being raptured out, God will save Israel once again." But it's a belief that is borne out of either a misunderstanding, wishful thinking, human desire, or misapplication of scripture
Right.
There is only one true Israel and Jesus is it. We as His followers are the Overcomers for God; literally Israelites by faith. Galatians 3:26-29

The Israelis, the mixed race citizens of the small nation in the Middle East, are the Satanic construct which has successfully fooled most of the world into thinking they have special rights, or are Gods people.
Bible prophecy tells of their virtually total demise in the forthcoming sudden and shocking Day the Lord will send His fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Matthew 21:41, Luke 21:27
 
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RevealedTruths

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Sometimes God is just brutal and you just have to accept it.
Sometimes you are just a preacher of Lawlessness, who despises paternal and marital love. God, our Creator and Heavenly Father, is not "brutal", He will not withold good things from those who love Him and His Law, which is Love. This reply of yours shows a great lack of love and compassion. But as it is written, in the last days Lawlessness shall multiply, and therefore, the love of many will wax cold.
 
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