Is believing/faith a work ?

Dah'veed · Mar 15, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
Again Faith reveals that Christ has saved us, you are saying Christ died for people who are lost, ...

How else would the lost come to saving faith?

They have been led astray Jer 50:6 and have gone from one sin to another Isaiah 30:1 [dead in sin and transgression].

Brightfame52 said:
Faith in Christ receives the knowledge that Christ by His death has saved the individual.

In this the love of God was made manifest (displayed): God sent His Son, the only begotten Son, into the world so that we live through Him. 1 John 4:9 Now I live in the faith, in the Son of God. Gal 2:20

Brightfame52 said:
They are in a saved state when the Gospel comes to them in power. Otherwise the Gospel is hid from them in a lost state 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Anyone who does not abide in God's Son remains in death. 1 John 3:14
But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving, refuses to trust in) the Son will never see life. John 3:36
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith. 2 Corinthians 13:5

Brightfame52 · Mar 18, 2023

John Mullally said:
Actually I got turned around. My answer (Post 897) to your question (Post 896 and quoted below) should have been "Yes" as I did not read it carefully - but it looks like you understood what I meant.

I will show how your question is loaded:

The underlined portion shows that you are presuming that Christ's atonement (accomplished at Calvary) works unconditionally - in other words nothing is required by the individual recipient to receive its benefit. That presumption makes your question a loaded question per Loaded question - Wikipedia. Since as you must know I disagree with that presumption - thus my simple answer is Yes as I believe receiving the benefit of the atonement requires faith by the intended recipient. If you take out the presumption I disagree with by removing the underlined portion of your question, I would say No as believers are saved by the atonement. I see you asked the same loaded question of Doug Brents.

Demanding yes/no answers to loaded questions is not the highest form of argumentation - but I see it is commonly used on these forums. Wikipedia terms those questions as fallacious (again taken from Loaded question - Wikipedia):

The fallacy relies upon context for its effect: the fact that a question presupposes something does not in itself make the question fallacious. Only when some of these presuppositions are not necessarily agreed to by the person who is asked the question does the argument containing them become fallacious.

I am not in unbelief because I believe what the Bible teaches as I outlined in Post 894.

Yes its unbelief to deny that Christs death saved those He died for, which is exactly what one does when they say Jesus Christ died for them who are ultimately die in their sins in unbelief. Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Dah'veed · Mar 18, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
Yes its unbelief to deny that Christs death saved those He died for, which is exactly what one does when they say Jesus Christ died for them who are ultimately die in their sins in unbelief. Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

But they have not all accepted the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Rom 10:16
For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them,
because they did not believe. Now we who have believed enter that rest; Heb 4:2-3
See to it, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that refuses to trust in Christ.

Brightfame52 · Mar 19, 2023

Doug Brents said:
No, your question is very poorly worded.

Do you believe that the scripture teaches that Christ death in and of itself saved no one He died for? Yes or No please

I underlined the confusing part. Obviously Jesus death saves some, else no one would be saved at all. So I don’t know what you mean by ”His death saved no one He died for”.

Jesus’ death, in and of itself, could save everyone who has or will ever live. However, it does save only those who believe the Gospel and obey it.

It was worded correctly. You dont believe Christ Death in and of itself saved anybody, you admit that it could save everyone. So then obviously it didnt save anyone in and of itself.

Now either it could, or it did, or it didn't !

Dah'veed · Mar 19, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
It was worded correctly. You dont believe Christ Death in and of itself saved anybody, you admit that it could save everyone. So then obviously it didnt save anyone in and of itself.

Now either it could, or it did, or it didn't !

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. 1 Cor 15:34

Doug Brents · Mar 19, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
It was worded correctly. You dont believe Christ Death in and of itself saved anybody, you admit that it could save everyone. So then obviously it didnt save anyone in and of itself.

Now either it could, or it did, or it didn't !

Jesus’ death is sufficient to pay for every sin ever committed by anyone. His gift is infinite, while the sin of the world is finite. Infinite is more than sufficient to cure/heal/cleanse the finite.

However, Scripture is very clear that God’s gift is conditionally applied only to those who are obedient to Him. His LOVE is unconditional, but His GRACE is completely conditional. I know you refuse to believe that, but it is clear in Scripture for you to see.

Brightfame52 · Mar 19, 2023

Doug Brents said:
Jesus’ death is sufficient to pay for every sin ever committed by anyone. His gift is infinite, while the sin of the world is finite. Infinite is more than sufficient to cure/heal/cleanse the finite.

However, Scripture is very clear that God’s gift is conditionally applied only to those who are obedient to Him. His LOVE is unconditional, but His GRACE is completely conditional. I know you refuse to believe that, but it is clear in Scripture for you to see.

You say it is sufficient, but you fall short in saying that it saves all for whom He died, in and of itself. Again that's just saying in a nice way, His death for one in and of itself saved nobody. Thats unbelief, no matter how you try to tidy it up.

Doug Brents · Mar 19, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
You say it is sufficient, but you fall short in saying that it saves all for whom He died, in and of itself. Again that's just saying in a nice way, His death for one in and of itself saved nobody. Thats unbelief, no matter how you try to tidy it up.

No, it is not unbelief. Jesus’ death did save every single person who obeys Him. If it saved no one, then He died in vain!

But you are correct, there are many who He died for who will be lost because they refuse Him. Rev 3:20 says, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.”
Jesus stands at the door asking to be let inside. IF we open the door and let Him in, THEN He will come in and we will eat together (be united as family). But if we refuse to open the door, he still loves us, He still died for us, but He will not force us to be in His family, nor will He force us to receive His gift of eternal life.

Brightfame52 · Mar 19, 2023

Doug Brents said:
No, it is not unbelief. Jesus’ death did save every single person who obeys Him. If it saved no one, then He died in vain!

But you are correct, there are many who He died for who will be lost because they refuse Him. Rev 3:20 says, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.”
Jesus stands at the door asking to be let inside. IF we open the door and let Him in, THEN He will come in and we will eat together (be united as family). But if we refuse to open the door, he still loves us, He still died for us, but He will not force us to be in His family, nor will He force us to receive His gift of eternal life.

You added mans obedience into the equation. So you are still denying that Jesus Christs death in and of itself saved them He died for. Dont you believe people Christ died for shall die in their sins if they dont believe in Him ? Yes or No

Doug Brents · Mar 19, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
You added mans obedience into the equation.

I didn’t add man’s obedience: God did.

Brightfame52 said:
So you are still denying that Jesus Christs death in and of itself saved them He died for.

You aren’t listening. Yes, Jesus’ death saved everyone who will be saved. There is nothing else in all of creation that COULD save, period!

Brightfame52 said:
Dont you believe people Christ died for shall die in their sins if they dont believe in Him ? Yes or No

Absolutely, that is exactly what Scripture says. That does not mean that Jesus is a failure, or that God is not omnipotent. It means that God set conditions on His gift of salvation, and anyone who does not meet those conditions does not get the gift.

Brightfame52 · Mar 19, 2023

Doug Brents said:
I didn’t add man’s obedience: God did.

You aren’t listening. Yes, Jesus’ death saved everyone who will be saved. There is nothing else in all of creation that COULD save, period!

Absolutely, that is exactly what Scripture says. That does not mean that Jesus is a failure, or that God is not omnipotent. It means that God set conditions on His gift of salvation, and anyone who does not meet those conditions does not get the gift.

Then that is unbeiief. You do deny that Christ death in and of itself saved them He died for.

Doug Brents · Mar 20, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
Then that is unbeiief. You do deny that Christ death in and of itself saved them He died for.

You need to do considerably more Bible study, and a lot less hovering over your preconceptions. I have said nothing that Scripture does not say, and I have not even come close to saying all that it does. You seem to ignore Scripture when it disagrees with your beliefs, and only ascribe to those passages that say what you want to believe. Until you agree to accept God’s Word as the final and only authority in this matter, we are done here.

Brightfame52 · Mar 20, 2023

Doug Brents said:
You need to do considerably more Bible study, and a lot less hovering over your preconceptions. I have said nothing that Scripture does not say, and I have not even come close to saying all that it does. You seem to ignore Scripture when it disagrees with your beliefs, and only ascribe to those passages that say what you want to believe. Until you agree to accept God’s Word as the final and only authority in this matter, we are done here.

Thats exactly what you are saying. Once a person confesses that Jesus Christ died for all humanity, and they also confess that not all humanity will be saved, but many lost, then by default they are saying the death of Christ in and of itself saves no one.

Many who are called universalist realize that, so they avoid it by saying Christ died for everyone and so everyone will be saved.

You dont appear to be very astute in this matter.

Doug Brents · Mar 20, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
Thats exactly what you are saying. Once a person confesses that Jesus Christ died for all humanity, and they also confess that not all humanity will be saved, but many lost, then by default they are saying the death of Christ in and of itself saves no one.

Have it your way. It is clear that you do not believe what Scripture says, but choose to cover your inability to understand with false logic. God says Jesus died for all mankind. God also says that not everyone will be saved. He, after all, is the sole arbiter of salvation.

Brightfame52 said:
Many who are called universalist realize that, so they avoid it by saying Christ died for everyone and so everyone will be saved.

Universalists are also wrong, because while Scripture is very clear that Jesus died for everyone, it is also clear that not everyone will be saved.

Brightfame52 said:
You dont appear to be very astute in this matter.

What others believe has never had any bearing on what Scripture says, and I am only concerned with what Scripture says. I do not claim to be an expert, I only claim to have done extensive, independent study of God’s Word. I have read your arguments and those of many others, and I always find that they ignore some Scripture so that they can believe whichever falsehood they cling to. You, for instance, continue to say Jesus only died for those who are saved in the end, when Scripture has been shown to you that says clearly that He died for everyone. And not just one passage, but half a dozen or more.

Brightfame52 · Mar 20, 2023

Doug Brents said:
Have it your way. It is clear that you do not believe what Scripture says, but choose to cover your inability to understand with false logic. God says Jesus died for all mankind. God also says that not everyone will be saved. He, after all, is the sole arbiter of salvation.

Universalists are also wrong, because while Scripture is very clear that Jesus died for everyone, it is also clear that not everyone will be saved.

What others believe has never had any bearing on what Scripture says, and I am only concerned with what Scripture says. I do not claim to be an expert, I only claim to have done extensive, independent study of God’s Word. I have read your arguments and those of many others, and I always find that they ignore some Scripture so that they can believe whichever falsehood they cling to. You, for instance, continue to say Jesus only died for those who are saved in the end, when Scripture has been shown to you that says clearly that He died for everyone. And not just one passage, but half a dozen or more.

Well the stand you take equates to Christs Death in and of itself saved no one, which is unbelief !

Doug Brents · Mar 20, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
Well the stand you take equates to Christs Death in and of itself saved no one, which is unbelief !

I find that you come back to this lame reply (or something equally as weak) when you know Scripture does not support your stance, but you refuse to admit it (maybe even to yourself). As I said before, when you are ready to submit to what Scripture says we can talk more. ‘Till then, I will leave you to believe whatever of Satan’s lies you want.

Brightfame52 · Mar 21, 2023

Doug Brents said:
I find that you come back to this lame reply (or something equally as weak) when you know Scripture does not support your stance, but you refuse to admit it (maybe even to yourself). As I said before, when you are ready to submit to what Scripture says we can talk more. ‘Till then, I will leave you to believe whatever of Satan’s lies you want.

What I state is true, you promote that some for whom Christ died will perish in their sins in unbelief, that is unbeiief!

Doug Brents · Mar 21, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
What I state is true, you promote that some for whom Christ died will perish in their sins in unbelief, that is unbeiief!

1 John 2:1-2 - “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Rev 20:11-15 - “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
These two passages alone destroy your argument.

Brightfame52 · Mar 21, 2023

Doug Brents said:
1 John 2:1-2 - “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Rev 20:11-15 - “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
These two passages alone destroy your argument.

Those scriptures dont help you, no matter how you spin it, you deny that Christs death/blood in and of itself saved them it was shed for. Thats unbelief.

Heb 9:14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

See that ? Thats an testimony of what the Blood of Christ done, it converts into servitude of the Living God, it purges the conscience.

You deny all that.

Doug Brents · Mar 21, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
Those scriptures dont help you, no matter how you spin it, you deny that Christs death/blood in and of itself saved them it was shed for. Thats unbelief.

Heb 9:14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

See that ? Thats an testimony of what the Blood of Christ done, it converts into servitude of the Living God, it purges the conscience.

You deny all that.

I am sorry to have wasted all this time and effort on one who chooses to ignore Scripture.

Yes, the power of Jesus’ Blood purges the conscience of dead works, but as Scripture says in many places, that purging is not automatic, nor is it without restriction. As the passages quoted above say clearly, Jesus died for not only the saved but for the whole world, and only those who obey Jesus will receive the cleansing effect of that gift. If you will not accept that truth, then we are done here!

Is believing/faith a work ?

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