The Order of Salavation

Dah'veed said:

An unbeliever can't grasp that he's dead in sin and transgression and has become unprofitable, the way of peace they have not known, etc.
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, Christ, the one who is able to save and destroy. James 4:12

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Unbelievers understand "right from wrong" unless they have a psychopathic personality disorder.
what they don't understand is Christian Theological Terminology, such as "dead in sin and transgression".

You know. Its the "Christianeze Language" that you find that Christians tend to use with each other.
The worst offenders would be the deceivers who post "Greek text" and try to prove some theology with it, yet they can't read Koine Greek or speak it.
Yet the FAKERS POST IT.
Every met on of those on a "christian forum"?
They are hard to miss.

I assure you that most unbelievers, believe in God. In Fact they are afraid of Him, and think about Hell more and more, the older they get, just like most Christians do.

Also, you said the lawgiver is Christ, but "The Law came by Moses, and Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ".

Legalist worry about the Law., Christians who are not of that carnal mind set, do not.

Chaleb said:

Also, you said the lawgiver is Christ, but "The Law came by Moses, and Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ".

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As Paul pointed out, not without law, but under the law of Christ.

Chaleb said:

Legalist worry about the Law., Christians who are not of that carnal mind set, do not.

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Carnal minded legalist can't fathom that through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from sin and death.

Dah'veed said:

As Paul pointed out, not without law, but under the law of Christ.

Carnal minded legalist can't fathom that through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from sin and death.

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Paul is "not under the Law, but Under Grace"

The Law of the Spirit is not the Law of Moses, nor the 10 commandments.
The Law of the Spirit is THE Life "in Christ", that is Luke 17:21 and also this...>"CHRIST always Gives Me The Victory".... Paul teaches as..."i can do all things Through Christ".

There is the Spiritual Life that is The Grace of God that produces the fruit of the spirit.

Doug Brents said:

Unfortunately, you are correct. Most denominations today teach that you are saved when you give intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel, and then later you are baptized to “show outwardly the inner change”. But that is not what the Bible says.

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Obviously most denominations disagree with you about that. Whenever somebody says most of Christianity is wrong, and their or their domination's minority view is right, I always see a red flag.

Doug Brents said:

No. I am not a member of the Church of Christ, although on this topic I am in agreement with them.

Each of those Scriptures says that it is in baptism that we are united with Christ (no baptism, no union). And John 5:3 is not talking about our original, natural birth. That was Nicodemus’ first thought as well, and Jesus tells him that is not what He is talking about. No, this is speaking of baptism, just as Eph 5:25-26 is also speaking of baptism.

Eph 5:25-27, “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.”
Rom 6:1-4, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life.”
Col 2:11-14, “and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
1 Cor 12:12-13, “For just as the body is one and yet has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.”
Gal 3:27, “For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”
1 Pet 3:21, “Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”
John 3:5, “Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

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That like so many other minority doctrines that go against the majority of Christian theology, started in the 19th century.

Chaleb said:

Paul is "not under the Law, but Under Grace"

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Even today when the old agreement is read to them there is still a veil over their minds—Yet if they “turn to the Lord” the veil is taken away.
Now in the NC the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 2 Corinthians 3:15-17

Chaleb said:

The Law of the Spirit is not the Law of Moses, nor the 10 commandments.
The Law of the Spirit is THE Life "in Christ", that is Luke 17:21 and also this...>"CHRIST always Gives Me The Victory"
.... Paul teaches as..."i can do all things Through Christ".
There is the Spiritual Life that is The Grace of God that produces the fruit of the spirit.

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For I say that Jesus Christ became a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises;
Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us,
and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Out of 50 Bible Translations of (1 Thessalonians 4:4) 33 prefer holy or holiness with 17 preferring sanctication ...


Is it possible for a born again Believer in Jesus to be justified by the Lord before they are first sanctified (holy)?

Is the placement of justification before that of sanctification by today's churches possibly just more evidence of the pervasiveness of seeker-sensitive nominal 21st Century Christianity? Afterall don't most evangelical churches tend to identify the Laodicean church (of the 7 churces of Asia) as most representative of 21st century American Christianity?

MMXX said:

Obviously most denominations disagree with you about that. Whenever somebody says most of Christianity is wrong, and their or their domination's minority view is right, I always see a red flag.

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Satan is a masterful liar, and he has convinced a huge portion of those who call themselves Christians that they can be saved without obedience to God. I do not believe that Satan is worried about us giving mental assent to Jesus and the truth of His Gospel. But he is very worried about us actually obeying Christ. If He can get us to believe, but convince us that we don’t really have to take the step that puts us in communication with God, he has won.

MMXX said:

That like so many other minority doctrines that go against the majority of Christian theology, started in the 19th century.

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No. Phillip taught that to the eunuch in Acts 8. Ananias told that to Saul in Damascus in Acts 22. And all the Scriptures I cited were all written in the first century, not the 19th.

Does it not stand to reason that all mankind should be influenced more by God than by the enemy (deceiver). That suggests that just as one time the whole world was evil and God regreted makng man. So now the whole earth or at least the majority of peoples should be filled with love and good deeds via His justification.

Please excuse but i can't help thinking that justification ... forgiving the sins of the people ... should have led to the peoples sanctification (holiness), but that didn't seem to happen over 2000 years. So, what good is justification if sanctification (holiness) doesn't follow? What am i missing other than people still can't stop sinning even thouogh justified.

What i don't understand is how "one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." After nearly 2000 years there were millions and milions of people that missed out on the blessng of justification. WHY when so great a Gift in comparison to Adam's disobedience that so few ignored the Gift or abused it over 2000 years.

Even among today's Christians do we yet really comprehend how to appropriate the justification offered to all people ?

Doug Brents said:

Satan is a masterful liar, and he has convinced a huge portion of those who call themselves Christians that they can be saved without obedience to God.

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No one asked Christians to subject themselves to the father of lies. "Resist the devil." You should do what is right and entrust your souls to a faithful Creator.

Doug Brents said:

I do not believe that Satan is worried about us giving mental assent to Jesus and the truth of His Gospel. But he is very worried about us actually obeying Christ.

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For God is faithful to His word—He will always provide the way out as well, so that you will be able to overcome temptation; 1 Cor 10:13

Doug Brents said:

If He can get us to believe, but convince us that we don’t really have to take the step that puts us in communication with God, he has won.

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Through death, Christ rendered powerless him who had the power of death—that is, the devil— to free all those held in bondage...
for He does provide deliverance to the seed of Abraham. Having become a merciful and faithful High Priest in things related to God;
Therefore, He Himself is able to provide a way of escape for those who are being tempted; Heb 2:14-18

"Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen."

Dah'veed said:

No one asked Christians to subject themselves to the father of lies. "Resist the devil." You should do what is right and entrust your souls to a faithful Creator.

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Indeed! But the vast majority of ministers that I hear preach the Gospel preach Satan’s false message of salvation at the point of mental assent.

Dah'veed said:

For God is faithful to His word—He will always provide the way out as well, so that you will be able to overcome temptation; 1 Cor 10:13

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If you are looking for it, and if you are walking in the Light (which requires personal study of His Word so you know His will). If not, then you will easily be led astray by Satan’s good sounding lies. Remember, Satan knows the words of the Bible better than any man who has ever lived except Jesus. And changing just one word, or taking a phrase out of context can completely change its meaning.

Doug Brents said:

Satan is a masterful liar, and he has convinced a huge portion of those who call themselves Christians that they can be saved without obedience to God. I do not believe that Satan is worried about us giving mental assent to Jesus and the truth of His Gospel. But he is very worried about us actually obeying Christ. If He can get us to believe, but convince us that we don’t really have to take the step that puts us in communication with God, he has won.

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That's what every sect that sprang forth in the 19th century says. Satan brought down most of Christianity and they're the only ones who know the truth.

Doug Brents said:

No. Phillip taught that to the eunuch in Acts 8. Ananias told that to Saul in Damascus in Acts 22. And all the Scriptures I cited were all written in the first century, not the 19th.

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All doctrine, even among the most heretical, cites lots of scripture. What separates it is the consensus of the Body of Christ. If most of the Body of Christ rejects a doctrine, there's something wrong with it. Unless you want to go with the notion that most of the Body of Christ is under Satan's control.

MMXX said:

That's what every sect that sprang forth in the 19th century says. Satan brought down most of Christianity and they're the only ones who know the truth.

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So you believe that an infant that is sprinkled with holy water is born again? Is that your Order Of Salvation?

AbbaLove said:

So you believe that an infant that is sprinkled with holy water is born again? Is that your Order Of Salvation?

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My mindset was within the boundaries of Protestantism when I wrote that. You bring up a very good point. I'd have to study Catholic reasoning regarding that more, before commenting on it.

Offhand I'd guess the practice started because of the high rate of infant mortality back then.

Baptism removes the original sin.
Repentance/Confession removes sins we commit in our present earthly life.

coorilose said:

Baptism removes the original sin.
Repentance/Confession removes sins we commit in our present earthly life.

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I thought it was the shed blood of Jesus that washes away our sins.

MMXX said:

That's what every sect that sprang forth in the 19th century says. Satan brought down most of Christianity and they're the only ones who know the truth.

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That’s a pretty wide brush you are painting with there. No, if a group’s doctrine is not in line with what Scripture says, then they are teaching a false doctrine. There are many subjects that Scripture gives wide latitude in. In these areas we can disagree and both be right with God. But there are some subjects that it is very specific and direct on, and gives no latitude. Salvation at the point of baptism is one of these. In these there is only God’s right way, and all other ways are wrong.

MMXX said:

All doctrine, even among the most heretical, cites lots of scripture. What separates it is the consensus of the Body of Christ. If most of the Body of Christ rejects a doctrine, there's something wrong with it. Unless you want to go with the notion that most of the Body of Christ is under Satan's control.

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Wrong! It matters not at all what the consensus of the Body of Christ says. What matters is what God said. Think back to the Golden Calf under Mt Sinai. The Israelites were all in consensus, but God was ready to destroy them all.

And yes, I believe that there are a large number of those who believe themselves to be God’s people who have accepted Satan’s lie and will find themselves with the goats on Judgment Day.

MMXX said:

I thought it was the shed blood of Jesus that washes away our sins.

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It washes away your sins but it doesn't get rid of the sinner within you. You will continue to sin.

When you repent (only God can tell if you are truly repenting), it shows that you have a strong desire to get rid of the sinner within you.

Only God can remove the sinner within you but when exactly this removal will take place is not clear to me yet.

Doug Brents said:

That’s a pretty wide brush you are painting with there. No, if a group’s doctrine is not in line with what Scripture says, then they are teaching a false doctrine. There are many subjects that Scripture gives wide latitude in. In these areas we can disagree and both be right with God. But there are some subjects that it is very specific and direct on, and gives no latitude. Salvation at the point of baptism is one of these. In these there is only God’s right way, and all other ways are wrong.

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In this case the group is most of Protestantism. And really if one doesn't believe in justification by grace alone through faith alone then they are denying and negating an essential point of the Protestant Reformation.

Doug Brents said:

Wrong! It matters not at all what the consensus of the Body of Christ says. What matters is what God said. Think back to the Golden Calf under Mt Sinai. The Israelites were all in consensus, but God was ready to destroy them all.

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There's a difference between what God said and a particular interpretation of what God said.

Doug Brents said:

And yes, I believe that there are a large number of those who believe themselves to be God’s people who have accepted Satan’s lie and will find themselves with the goats on Judgment Day.

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Are you saying that Christians who don't believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, are going to Hell?

coorilose said:

It washes away your sins but it doesn't get rid of the sinner within you. You will continue to sin.

When you repent (only God can tell if you are truly repenting), it shows that you have a strong desire to get rid of the sinner within you.

Only God can remove the sinner within you but when exactly this removal will take place is not clear to me yet.

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Perhaps it will become clearer as you study scripture more.