Are we subject to the Old Covenant today?

Doug Brents

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Yes let's look at it, - Misunderstood in many ways.

" while a promise remains of entering His rest,"
Where is that promise located?

"For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My anger,
They certainly shall not enter My rest,”

And what exactly was that 'rest' he was speaking of?

Found here in Psalms 95 - It is word for word, give cred for that.

For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My anger,
They certainly shall not enter My rest,”

Let's look at Psalm 95, you can go look up the whole but this is the focused part.

Today, if you will hear His voice:​
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,​
9 When your fathers tested Me;​
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation,​
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,​
And they do not know My ways.’​
11 So I swore in My wrath,​
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

To sum that up David is speaking of the time in the wilderness which is made explicit speaking of the 40 years. Those were the ones who cause them to wander around for 40 years instead of going into the Promised land. There they were to be given rest from their enemies, all they had to do was to keep His commandments.

'My rest' is His rest in safety and security every day, not one day.

The word translated 'rest' there in the Psalms is 'menuchah' which means a 'resting place' not a Sabbath rest.

At the dedication of the New Temple, Solomon, among others things, said this:

1 Kings 8:
54And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven. 55And he stood, and blessed all the congregation of Israel with a loud voice, saying,
56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel,
according to all that he promised:
there hath not failed one word of all his good promise,
which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

While the writer of Hebrews is making Psalms 95:11 seem the same rest as Genesis 2:2 (And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.) However it is not.

The word 'rested' in Genesis וַיִּשְׁבֹּת֙ way·yiš·bōṯ* --which means to 'cease to work'. It is not the same as 'Menuchah'
which is a resting place. That same is what King Solomon spoke of saying it was the Menuchah that God promised through Moses.

That was the 'Promise' that Hebrews is speaking of by not in the correct way.


Lets look at what the writer is calling it "while a promise remains of entering His rest" a promise that remains, like it never happened which David extols in the Psalms backed up at the Dedication of the Temple written of by King Solomon , his son. 2 witnesses that the promise was made and kept.

* The same as here --- from Joshua - 'The manna ceased on the day after'
I see. So your contention is that this is speaking of Heaven? I can see where you might get that. Heaven is the ”land” which we are promised. It is part of the “carrot” that God dangles in front of us to motivate us to obedience.

However, in this passage both are not only mentioned, but are being equated. “For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 Consequently, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God.”
In these two verses, both Heavenly rest and sabbath rest are brought together as one thing.
 
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Lulav

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I see. So your contention is that this is speaking of Heaven? I can see where you might get that. Heaven is the ”land” which we are promised. It is part of the “carrot” that God dangles in front of us to motivate us to obedience.

However, in this passage both are not only mentioned, but are being equated. “For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 Consequently, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God.”
In these two verses, both Heavenly rest and sabbath rest are brought together as one thing.
SMH

No, it was speaking of the Promised land, Israel, the place where God placed his name.

Didn't you read the scriptures about King Solomon? Did you read the original word meanings? Do you bother to read all I place in the post, by your responses I would guess, no.
 
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Cornelius8L

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You surely don't believe the LORD was saying he liked the smell of meat being bar-b-qued? right?

When he says that I take it in the way I believe it should be that it is a 'sweet savor' to him because of what it represents. Burnt offering were for giving back to God for his provision. Not really a 'burnt' offering but an offering made by fire to the LORD> this was an offering where it wasn't shared with the Priests, it was entirely burnt up. This was the only offering actually acceptable from a Gentile. These offering which were fully burnt up were for atonement for sin, either corporately or individual.

It was a sweet savor to smell of the offering for repentance, this is what the LORD loves,

"The sacrifice God desires is a humble spirit— O God, a humble and repentant heart you will not reject."
True. But if "sweet aroma" doesn't mean the 'smell,' then a lot of things in the Bible don't mean what they say they mean. As in the case of customary law.
 
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Doug Brents

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SMH

No, it was speaking of the Promised land, Israel, the place where God placed his name.

Didn't you read the scriptures about King Solomon? Did you read the original word meanings? Do you bother to read all I place in the post, by your responses I would guess, no.
ROTFL, I did indeed read your post, however, the land of Israel is not the Promises Land of the New Covenant. There is no longer a place on Earth where we must go to worship (John 4:21-24). The promised rest is that of the New Earth which is in Heaven.
 
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Lulav

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True. But if "sweet aroma" doesn't mean the 'smell,' then a lot of things in the Bible don't mean what they say they mean. As in the case of customary law.
How do prayers become 'incense'? It is the same thing basically.

Rev 5:8 When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Psalm 141:2
May you accept my prayer like incense, my uplifted hands like the evening offering.
 
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Lulav

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Don't hurt yourself. :)
I did indeed read your post, however, the land of Israel is not the Promises Land of the New Covenant. There is no longer a place on Earth where we must go to worship (John 4:21-24). The promised rest is that of the New Earth which is in Heaven.


The point was, what the writer was using comes from the Psalms and had nothing to do with the Sabbath rest.

It is a MISINTERPRETATION

"For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My anger,
They certainly shall not enter My rest,”

He is saying that those that believe enter 'that rest' the rest mentioned in the Psalms which he then quotes from the Psalm which is explicitly speaking of the entering of the Promised land to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Nothing about heaven there. Nothing about Sabbath there.

I also proved that what was written about in the Psalms was the entering of the land of Caanan where King Solomon says the same and proclaims that God did allow them (after all the rebellious died off) to enter in.

1 Kings 8
56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised:
there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.



I know it was a long post and I wanted to be careful to back up what I was saying but I guess it proved to be too much. I hope this truncated version will still get across the point.
 
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Doug Brents

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Don't hurt yourself. :)



The point was, what the writer was using comes from the Psalms and had nothing to do with the Sabbath rest.

It is a MISINTERPRETATION

"For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My anger,
They certainly shall not enter My rest,”

He is saying that those that believe enter 'that rest' the rest mentioned in the Psalms which he then quotes from the Psalm which is explicitly speaking of the entering of the Promised land to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Nothing about heaven there. Nothing about Sabbath there.

I also proved that what was written about in the Psalms was the entering of the land of Caanan where King Solomon says the same and proclaims that God did allow them (after all the rebellious died off) to enter in.

1 Kings 8
56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised:
there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.



I know it was a long post and I wanted to be careful to back up what I was saying but I guess it proved to be too much. I hope this truncated version will still get across the point.
The quoting of a passage from the OT does not alway carry the same meaning into the NT. Note Matt 2:15 which is a direct quote of Hos 11:1. In Hosea, God is talking about the nation of Israel as descendants of Jacob (Israel). However, Matthew is very clear that God is speaking about Jesus being called out of Egypt, not Israel.

Yes, we can look to the original passage for insight into what is being discussed. But we must always defer to the new context, and the new meaning given when something from the Old is brought into the New. The Promised Land in the OT was the land of Israel. But in the NT it is Heaven, not a place on Earth. The sabbath rest was a distinction given only to the nation of Israel and only for the duration of the Law of Moses. It did not exist before the Law, and was removed with the death of Christ.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The sabbath rest was a distinction given only to the nation of Israel and only for the duration of the Law of Moses. It did not exist before the Law, and was removed with the death of Christ.
Weird, my bible says something different. Jesus has a people who keeps the Sabbath long after He ascended back to heaven Matthew 24:20. And His disciples kept every Sabbath preaching God's Word decades after the cross Acts 18:4 We are also told the saints keep the commandments of God until the very end of time Revelation 14:12 Revelation 12:17 Revelation 22:14- the saints are the saved and you cannot prove that the Sabbath is not a commandment of God, that we can forget this one commandment that God said Remember, at least not through scripture. God said the Sabbath would last forever and we see God's promises are always true Isaiah 66:23 :twohearts:
 
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Doug Brents

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Weird, my bible says something different. Jesus has a people who keeps the Sabbath long after He ascended back to heaven Matthew 24:20. And His disciples kept every Sabbath preaching God's Word decades after the cross Acts 18:4 We are also told the saints keep the commandments of God until the very end of time Revelation 14:12 Revelation 12:17 Revelation 22:14- the saints are the saved and you cannot prove that the Sabbath is not a commandment of God, that we can forget this one commandment that God said Remember, at least not through scripture. God said the Sabbath would last forever and we see God's promises are always true Isaiah 66:23 :twohearts:
All of this has already been addressed as misunderstandings on your part.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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On that you are correct. Now, go study more and pray that God would reveal that truth from which you currently hide.
Non- responsive to the post that clearly shows the statements you made about the Sabbath ending at the cross is in error. If you wish to address those through scripture please do, thus far its been only your opinion and our opinions, while we may value them, are not the same as or equal to the Word of God.

Speaking of Truth God's Word says we are sanctified by the Truth of God's Word John 17:17, Ezekiel 20:12 and all of His commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 which of course includes the Sabbath commandment and we must worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24. Those who keep not His commandments, there is no Truth 1 John 2:4.
 
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LW97Nils

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There is a difference between God's Righteousness and man's righteousness I believe. Regarding the Jews, Paul said;

Rom. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Is. 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, (Not God's Righteousness) like the wind, have taken us away.

I know this verse is used a lot to promote the idea that walking in God's Righteousness makes men a filthy rag. But the Scripture doesn't say that at all. Isaiah is speaking to their sins, their righteousness.

John knew better, and it seems also knew men would try and preach otherwise.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness "is righteous", even as he (Jesus) is righteous.

Jesus understood.

Matt. 5: 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Paul understood.

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:

David understood.

Ps. 14: 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

I would be careful about advancing the religious philosophy that God's Righteousness, isn't Righteous, but a filthy rag, when HIS People Walk in them as instructed.
Matt. 13: 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (Unrighteousness) 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Then we agree :) My point was that back then people were not cleansed of their sins, their sins were merely covered
 
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Doug Brents

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Non- responsive to the post that clearly shows the statements you made about the Sabbath ending at the cross is in error. If you wish to address those through scripture please do, thus far its been only your opinion and our opinions, while we may value them, are not the same as or equal to the Word of God.
As I said, those issues have already been addressed ad nauseam, and I will not waste my time reposting Scripture that you have already ignored.
Speaking of Truth God's Word says we are sanctified by the Truth of God's Word John 17:17, Ezekiel 20:12 and all of His commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 which of course includes the Sabbath commandment and we must worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24. Those who keep not His commandments, there is no Truth 1 John 2:4.
All true except that the sabbath commandment is part of the Old Covenant and was not renewed in the New Covenant as has already been discussed, again ad nauseam.
 
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LW97Nils

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Lev. 20: 10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Where is the Adulterer, that she was "Caught in the very Act" with? Where is your call for him to be stoned, since they caught her in the act, they surely knew who the man was. It seems in your zeal to make Jesus a transgressor of God Laws, you are ignoring God's Laws.
No one stated he was. But to suggest there were no changes at all is a lie.

Divorce and remarriage under Moses:
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Deuteronomy 24:1

What did Christ say?
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: but I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Matthew 5:31-32

The allowance to divorce and remarry was only temporary. Christ explains why.
The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. Matthew 19:3-9
 
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SabbathBlessings

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As I said, those issues have already been addressed ad nauseam, and I will not waste my time reposting Scripture that you have already ignored.

All true except that the sabbath commandment is part of the Old Covenant and was not renewed in the New Covenant as has already been discussed, again ad nauseam.

Actually, they have never been addressed by scripture.

Luke 23: 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment. Jesus kept the Sabbath and all of the commandments John 15:10, Luke 4:16 and is our example to follow. 1 John 2:6

After the death of Jesus, the Sabbath is still one of the commandments according to the Word of God. For me, I am going to stick with God's Word because it is a light to our path Psalms 119:105 and Jesus warns us to take the narrow path, not the wide one that most people follow.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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That indeed. The entire Mosaic Law, no.
Agreed, the only thing that ended at the cross were the ordinances Col 2:14, Eph 2:15 as they pointed to Jesus who became our Sacrifice for sins. God's Ten Commandments are eternal Revelation 11:19 and is what defines sin Romans 7:7 so we know what not to break.
 
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