The Order of Salavation
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Dah'veed
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You can forfeit your inheritance with your sloppy sinful nature, for if you rely on flesh, of the flesh you will reap destruction.
And there's no need to post a barrage of passages to demonstrate how they can stumble, it's no surprise, they did not believe in the Son.
God said to Him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, " Heb 5:5-6
Who became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him designated by God to be High Priest. Heb 5:9-10
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Doug Brents
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We are justified when else do the things that Scripture says justify us. Rom 10:9-10 says that we are saved (justified) when we believe (exhibit faith) and confess Jesus as Lord. Acts 3:19 says we are forgiven (justified) when we repent. Acts 2:38 says we receive forgiveness (justification) and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when we repent and are baptized. Mark 16:16 says we are saved (justified) when we believe (exhibit faith) and are baptized.
There are many places where we are told simply to believe (exhibit faith). But that in no way overshadows these other passages that tell us what form that faith must take.
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Dah'veed
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As you put it, "that could be taken in many ways." To some it simply means that we are reconciled through the Son of God, while others think you have to shoot lightning bolts out of your eye balls.
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But I can say those passages don't say anything different than believe. Repent can be said to mean that you change your mind from unbelief to belief. And Jesus says "but whoever does not believe will be condemned" not whoever does not believe - and is not baptised - will be condemned.
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Doug Brents
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Those passages use the Greek word “pistis” which means faith. Even if you just think it is “belief” it is not just a mental assent. If you don’t do something different, if you don’t change, if you don’t obey, then you don’t really believe.
No. Repentance is not just a change from unbelief to belief. Repentance is a 180 degree change in attitude, behavior, lifestyle, choices, etc.
And if you don’t believe, being baptized just gets you wet. And when you look at Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14, both say that it is during baptism that we are united with Jesus in His death and resurrection. The old man of sin goes into the water, and the new man comes out of the water. If you never go into the water, you never become the new person.
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We're going in circles now. I thought we already determined what real belief/faith is. That it's the kind of belief/faith that you're willing to stake your life on. Hence the skydiver's belief/faith in his parachute analogy.
I can't help but notice that you seem to leave God out of the picture, when it comes to transformation. It's all self.
Does justification only take place after baptism? Yes or no.
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Dah'veed
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What did Paul do different after the Son of God was revealed to him?
They knew me from the first, if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. Acts 26:5-6
'Now I send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:17-18
Paul increased in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt at Damascus, affirming that Jesus is the Messiah. Acts 9:22
I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, do works befitting repentance. ...
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.” Acts 26:19-23
In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ...
All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things
He may have the preeminence. Col 1:12-18
Therefore glorify God in body and spirit, for you were bought with a price [you were redeemed with the precious blood of Jesus and made His own]. 1 Cor 6:20
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Doug Brents
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Not at all. God gives the power, motivation, strength, and reward for change. Without Him there would be no reason, ability, or desire to change. He is the author and finisher of our faith.
Yes: NT justification occurs during immersion in water after one has repented and confessed Jesus as Lord, having heard the Gospel and accepted it as truth.
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I believe that's what Free Grace teaches. I figured eventually it would get to this point. It always does.
Shouldn't new converts be baptised immediately on the spot then?
And what if they were already baptised when they were a baby or small child?
And what is the verse again that says you're not justified until someone baptises you?
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God’s love is not dependent upon us keeping His commandments, He loves everyone.
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If you pay attention, you'll discover that most of the people on Christian Forums, believe they can lose their Salvation.
So, how do they try to prevent that?
By trying to keep themselves saved.
1.) By works
2.) By water baptism
3.) By enduring
4.) By Abiding
5.) By Holding onto their Faith
And thats just a few ways that people who dont actually Trust in Christ, try to STAY SAVED.
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Dah'veed
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And some were saved because in fact they trust in Christ.
For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. Eph 2:18-20
Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:11-12
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Faith is always counted by God as righteous and justification is always and only based on Faith.
It is impossible to please God without faith
Abraham is the father of our faith
to him that worketh not, but believeth on GOD who > JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY>.... its your FAITH That is counted by God as righteousness
Let me show you a self righteous person who is probably saved..
An unbeliever understands that they are a sinner and that they can do works...good works.......
A deceived person, born again, is trying to do the same works that the unbeliever is doing, and they believe these works are now a part of their Salvation. They must do them to STAY SAVED.
They read James who said..>"ill show you my faith by my works" and they interpret this to mean....."if im not doing any works, im not really saved".... or. "i do these works to keep from losing my salvation".
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Doug Brents
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Not very familiar with “Free Grace”, but on brief inspection I see some right and some wrong in what they believe. While initial faith is what brings salvation at the outset, good works must then be the fruit of such a one, or they will be cut off and thrown into the fire (John 15:1-6).
Absolutely they should! A review of every one of the conversation stories in Acts shows much haste on the part of the teacher to baptize their new disciples.
If there is no personal understanding and conviction on the part of the one baptized, there is no salvation. The baby neither understands nor has the ability to repent, not have they confessed Jesus as their Lord. So they just got wet when they were baptized as a youth.
Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5.
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d taylor has been posting Free Grace throughout this thread.
But they're usually not. I've never seen people being baptized at Billy Graham crusades and the like for example.
And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Acts 8:36-38 from Acts 8:26-39.
It doesn't say the enunic repented, or confessed Jesus as his Lord. The eunuch just said "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and that was good enough for Philip who was sent by God to the eunuch.
Except for John 3:5, I don't see those verses saying anything like we are not justified until someone baptizes us. As for John 5:3, many if not most interpret "born of water" as meaning physical birth. Are you a member of the "Church of Christ" denomonation or similar?
What is baptismal regeneration? | GotQuestions.org
What is baptismal regeneration? Is baptismal regeneration a biblical doctrine? Is baptism required for salvation?
www.gotquestions.org
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Doug Brents
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Unfortunately, you are correct. Most denominations today teach that you are saved when you give intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel, and then later you are baptized to “show outwardly the inner change”. But that is not what the Bible says.
No. I am not a member of the Church of Christ, although on this topic I am in agreement with them.
Each of those Scriptures says that it is in baptism that we are united with Christ (no baptism, no union). And John 5:3 is not talking about our original, natural birth. That was Nicodemus’ first thought as well, and Jesus tells him that is not what He is talking about. No, this is speaking of baptism, just as Eph 5:25-26 is also speaking of baptism.
Eph 5:25-27, “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.”
Rom 6:1-4, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life.”
Col 2:11-14, “and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
1 Cor 12:12-13, “For just as the body is one and yet has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.”
Gal 3:27, “For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”
1 Pet 3:21, “Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”
John 3:5, “Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
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Dah'veed
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You had it right in the first place, the inheritance is based on faith and the self righteous who you think "is probably saved," stumbled.
An unbeliever can't grasp that he's dead in sin and transgression and has become unprofitable, the way of peace they have not known, etc.
A deceived person isn't born in Christ, since a born again person is purified by faith in Christ.
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, Christ, the one who is able to save and destroy. James 4:12 The Judge is standing at the door! James 5:8-11
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