Ah yes. The theology of music, and how it should be made.

Harley.

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So, little backstory for me. I am a music producer. Ive been making music on a computer LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before I became a Christian, and have since started using my talent to glorify God. However then I started to realise something. God seems to love when music is played live on an instrument. And since im not doing that, and its very different to what I do. Is it still glorifying God? When I write a song, I produce, mix, master etc, sometimes without ever touching an actual instrument. The computer is my instrument. And when the song is done, its done. It can be played, enjoyed etc, but it cannot be played LIVE by a group of musicians. This is a problem, considering thats what God likes, when it comes to music. Its a weird question, and yet its a pretty serious one considering my intense passion for music production, not so much music playing.
 

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I build off of these verses:
Eph_5:
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Col_3:
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

And I like this from psalms:

Psalms 45:1 KJV
1. My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

One of my favorite from the OT regarding the prophetic manufacture and delivery of songs:
1 Chronicles 25:1-2 KJV
1. Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:
2. Of the sons of Asaph; Zaccur, and Joseph, and Nethaniah, and Asarelah, the sons of Asaph under the hands of Asaph, which prophesied according to the order of the king.

I play guitar... and write songs from this sort of inspiration.
Prophesy with harps...
 
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Harley.

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I build off of these verses:
Eph_5:
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Col_3:
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

And I like this from psalms:

Psalms 45:1 KJV
1. My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

One of my favorite from the OT regarding the prophetic manufacture and delivery of songs:
1 Chronicles 25:1-2 KJV
1. Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:
2. Of the sons of Asaph; Zaccur, and Joseph, and Nethaniah, and Asarelah, the sons of Asaph under the hands of Asaph, which prophesied according to the order of the king.

I play guitar... and write songs from this sort of inspiration.
Prophesy with harps...
Intresting, so instead of a harp or in your case a guitar, mine would be the computer itself?
 
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Harley.

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While I would love this to be what God wants me to do, I feel like God inst to keen on electronic production. idk if thats my own paranoia or not tho
Anything can be a calling and it sounds like your passion is your calling. Good for you.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Intresting, so instead of a harp or in your case a guitar, mine would be the computer itself?
Yes. I have tried to use some software to create MIDI music but never did get the nack. I have a little synth but have not used it for years.
Kudos to you for that ability.
 
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Harley.

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Yes. I have tried to use some software to create MIDI music but never did get the hack. I have a little synth but have not used it for years.
Kudos to you for that ability.
And kudos to you for yours! I can't for the life of me get my fingers moving fast enough to play a guitar or anything like that. Paul wasn't kidding when he said many parts, but of the same body, we really are all made for different things!
 
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public hermit

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So, little backstory for me. I am a music producer. Ive been making music on a computer LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before I became a Christian, and have since started using my talent to glorify God. However then I started to realise something. God seems to love when music is played live on an instrument. And since im not doing that, and its very different to what I do. Is it still glorifying God? When I write a song, I produce, mix, master etc, sometimes without ever touching an actual instrument. The computer is my instrument. And when the song is done, its done. It can be played, enjoyed etc, but it cannot be played LIVE by a group of musicians. This is a problem, considering thats what God likes, when it comes to music. Its a weird question, and yet its a pretty serious one considering my intense passion for music production, not so much music playing.

I see no reason why you couldn't glorify God with your music. Part of the divine image that we bear is the ability to create, and that's what you're doing. Instruments and computers are simply tools or a means for creativity, if that's how you choose to use them. Both produce sounds. You are putting sounds into a certain form by the means of a computer. That is your instrument. I don't see the problem, and I'm pretty confident that I don't see one because there isn't one. May God be glorified by your music! :)

ETA: Feel free to post some of what you've created.
 
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ViaCrucis

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From what I can recall J. R. Tolkien spoke of what he called "sub-creation". His creation of Middle Earth, the stories set in that world, the languages, the cultures, the world-building he did he saw as worship. That the act of creation (or "sub-creation") is a worshipful imitation of God. Writing, art, music, all the creative expressions are creative expressions of the human creature made in the Image and Likeness of the Good Creator.

Does it matter if the artist paints with oil, acrylics, charcoal, pencil, or even digitally? No--the instruments and implements of making--the pen, the paintbrush, the musical instrument, the computer--are merely instruments and implements of creative work. And God is worshiped when our humanity is oriented toward Him (as it was designed to be) and bearing His Image in our works--in our good works, in our creative works; when we feed the hungry or when we sing a song of praise or write a poem about the beauty of the sunset.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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So, little backstory for me. I am a music producer. Ive been making music on a computer LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before I became a Christian, and have since started using my talent to glorify God. However then I started to realise something. God seems to love when music is played live on an instrument. And since im not doing that, and its very different to what I do. Is it still glorifying God? When I write a song, I produce, mix, master etc, sometimes without ever touching an actual instrument. The computer is my instrument. And when the song is done, its done. It can be played, enjoyed etc, but it cannot be played LIVE by a group of musicians. This is a problem, considering thats what God likes, when it comes to music. Its a weird question, and yet its a pretty serious one considering my intense passion for music production, not so much music playing.
For what it's worth, as a musician and song writer who dedicates much time to being an accomplished guitarist, I greatly admire those who have dedicated their time to form beautiful and moving music by shaping and coordinating synthetic sounds, producing and engineering music. I love to watch others play, but it also takes great talent and good ear to produce and engineer.

I know full well what it's like to be in a band and it's not always as great as one might think. It has its ups, such as joining as one and complimenting each other in a musical collaboration, but it also has its downs such as competing egos. So just because you might think you don't actually play anything, don't let your ego ruin your musical experience.
 
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Bob Crowley

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To quote CS Lewis in one of his essays somewhere, if God really wanted music, He wouldn't ask us for it. He'd make his own.

As far as our music is concerned, I don't think He cares how we produce it. If it is used to glorify Him, I think He'll accept it no matter what the source.

It could be a bunch of kids playing on improvised instruments, an African drum band, or a highly skilled sound engineer.

I think the statement "God seems to love when music is played live on an instrument" says more about us than God. By and large I think WE prefer live music, rather than engineered music.
 
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God seems to love when music is played live on an instrument. And since im not doing that, and its very different to what I do. Is it still glorifying God? When I write a song, I produce, mix, master etc, sometimes without ever touching an actual instrument. The computer is my instrument. And when the song is done, its done. It can be played, enjoyed etc, but it cannot be played LIVE by a group of musicians. This is a problem, considering thats what God likes, when it comes to music.
Well... I'm not sure that God has any preferences how music is produced since he built it into some of the angelic host...

Eze 28:13 Thou wast in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was in thee; in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 Thou wast the anointed cherub that covereth: and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee.

... so I don't suppose that how music is produced would be a great concern. The matter would probably rest more upon the matter of relationship within the body of Christ. We will be worshiping the Lord as a corporate body in heaven so it is probably good that we learn to flow with each other in song and worship while we are here on earth. It's important, when we sing, that we listen to one another and blend our voices with those others who are sing with us. It's not a matter of grand standing and trying to be someone of note in singing to the Lord. No place for egos in God's people. We need to be revealing the name and purpose of another... of God and each other brother or sister (within the body of Christ) as Jesus and the Holy Spirit does (but that's a whole other subject).

The purpose of the music may also need consideration. If it is for teaching and admonition (Col 3:16) then it probably needs to be something that can be produced live so that anyone within the body is able to sing it within the congregation. This is, in my opinion, is the primary purpose of music for a Christian. It encapsulates the Word of God in song and embeds that scriptural understanding within the Christian each time that they sing the words of the song. Performance pieces (such as what the OP seems to produce) could do this also but the application may not be as effective as it would only occur on the occasions that a person would choose to listen to that piece of music... not necessarily as often as in may occur within a Church service. Performance music may also be produced as an attempt to evangelize but I'm not sure how effective this may be. I've worked as a roadie and also sung in public concerts put on by my fellowship but, overall, there did not seem to be a lot of non-christians that came to know the Lord as a result. The Church I attend has produced many talented musicians and singers over the past years but has not bothered to put on any big concerts for many years now. The focus has moved into other areas instead. Most of the things I write would fall into the performance music category (i.e. not worship choruses etc) so will probably not see much of an audience (which is OK... mostly it's for me to record my thoughts on certain subjects anyway).

I guess the only question I would pose is "Can the computer generated music be restructured to be performed on other instruments"? Obvious some synthetic sounds would be be difficult to reproduce but midi connections could link into a synthesized alternative. Tempo could exceed what would commonly be possible on an instrument so I'm not sure if that could be worked around. My point is... music is music. What is originally produced may be fantastic but people do covers of all sorts of different pieces and put their own twist on it. Just curious. What factors make it impossible for the songs to be performed live in some other format?
 
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Harley.

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Well... I'm not sure that God has any preferences how music is produced since he built it into some of the angelic host...

Eze 28:13 Thou wast in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was in thee; in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 Thou wast the anointed cherub that covereth: and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee.

... so I don't suppose that how music is produced would be a great concern. The matter would probably rest more upon the matter of relationship within the body of Christ. We will be worshiping the Lord as a corporate body in heaven so it is probably good that we learn to flow with each other in song and worship while we are here on earth. It's important, when we sing, that we listen to one another and blend our voices with those others who are sing with us. It's not a matter of grand standing and trying to be someone of note in singing to the Lord. No place for egos in God's people. We need to be revealing the name and purpose of another... of God and each other brother or sister (within the body of Christ) as Jesus and the Holy Spirit does (but that's a whole other subject).

The purpose of the music may also need consideration. If it is for teaching and admonition (Col 3:16) then it probably needs to be something that can be produced live so that anyone within the body is able to sing it within the congregation. This is, in my opinion, is the primary purpose of music for a Christian. It encapsulates the Word of God in song and embeds that scriptural understanding within the Christian each time that they sing the words of the song. Performance pieces (such as what the OP seems to produce) could do this also but the application may not be as effective as it would only occur on the occasions that a person would choose to listen to that piece of music... not necessarily as often as in may occur within a Church service. Performance music may also be produced as an attempt to evangelize but I'm not sure how effective this may be. I've worked as a roadie and also sung in public concerts put on by my fellowship but, overall, there did not seem to be a lot of non-christians that came to know the Lord as a result. The Church I attend has produced many talented musicians and singers over the past years but has not bothered to put on any big concerts for many years now. The focus has moved into other areas instead. Most of the things I write would fall into the performance music category (i.e. not worship choruses etc) so will probably not see much of an audience (which is OK... mostly it's for me to record my thoughts on certain subjects anyway).

I guess the only question I would pose is "Can the computer generated music be restructured to be performed on other instruments"? Obvious some synthetic sounds would be be difficult to reproduce but midi connections could link into a synthesized alternative. Tempo could exceed what would commonly be possible on an instrument so I'm not sure if that could be worked around. My point is... music is music. What is originally produced may be fantastic but people do covers of all sorts of different pieces and put their own twist on it. Just curious. What factors make it impossible for the songs to be performed live in some other format?
Wow this is an amazing response! Thank you so much! In answer to you question, technically nothing, its just it would require a huge orchestra.
Also, im personally of the belief that we wont just be in corporate worship in heaven (At least not the eternal new heavens and new earth, maybe the intermediate heaven will be), I think life will be pretty similar to now, just without sin, with us glorifying God in all the different ways we've been made skilled in!
 
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As I read scripture, when it comes to music God seems to be primarily concerned about the lyrics and not the music. Otherwise, why would we have the Psalms, for example, without any musical notation and only the roughest ideas, at best, concerning their performance.

Also, while I am musing my way on this musical interlude, I don't see any venue in scripture for congregational singing, especially in four-part harmony as we know it today. In the Old Testament there were no regular congregational gatherings at all. Everything centered around the Temple and the annual cycle of Feasts. In the New Testament singing seems to be individual in nature - singing to one another in Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Then there is this -

I Corinthians 15:26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a psalm, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.
 
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Harley.

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As I read scripture, when it comes to music God seems to be primarily concerned about the lyrics and not the music. Otherwise, why would we have the Psalms, for example, without any musical notation and only the roughest ideas, at best, concerning their performance.

Also, while I am musing my way on this musical interlude, I don't see any venue in scripture for congregational singing, especially in four-part harmony as we know it today. In the Old Testament there were no regular congregational gatherings at all. Everything centered around the Temple and the annual cycle of Feasts. In the New Testament singing seems to be individual in nature - singing to one another in Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Then there is this -

I Corinthians 15:26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a psalm, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.
I mean, God is def interested in music, David always played his harp. But I see what your saying
 
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bbbbbbb

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I mean, God is def interested in music, David always played his harp. But I see what your saying
I agree that music is in scripture from Genesis through to Revelation, but it is probably in a form, as in worship in the Temple, which is completely alien to current ideas about Christian music. Music without words is just music, pure and simple. When you add words to the music, then it becomes a very different animal.
 
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Ok then... musical notation would have to be a lot more recent innovation than from Biblical times. The Psalms were songs meant to be accompanied by instrumentation as can be seen from some of the performance instructions included with them. eg

Psa 4:1 For the Chief Musician; on stringed instruments. A Psalm of David. Answer me when I call, O God of my righteousness; Thou hast set me at large when I was in distress: Have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.
Psa 5:1 For the Chief Musician; with the Nehiloth. (probably something like a flute)
Psa 8:1 For the Chief Musician; set to the Gittith (harp).

Also Psalms were addressed to 'The Chief Musician' which would mean that they had groups or choirs to perform many of those pieces. Some of the Levites were appointed as musicians and singers 1Ch 15:19-22 so, in the Old Testament (at least), singing was done in groups. In the New Testament you have both individual singers who prophesy in song 1 Co 15:26 but there must also be a corporate song else how could teaching in song Col 3:16 be achieved? The other thing is, it seems, some Psalms were set to pre-existing music... the same as some hymns were set to popular music at the time they were written. I do not know how the Psalms were sung, in the original language, but in biblical times they would have been sung often enough so that everyone would know the tune... probably from the time that they were children.

Psa 9:1 For the Chief Musician; set to Muth-labben.

As for 4 part harmony... that's something we in 'civilized' society seem to have forgotten how to do. We've stepped back and allowed others to do that while we watch (it seems). My brethren in our New Guinea fellowships do the multipart harmonies as just a natural part of their singing. In my fellowship we were taught to listen to other singers and then find a part to fit together with them. (I just have to anyway... I am pretty bass-ic so carrying a melody is not really the best use of my voice).

Not sure how often people gathered together within Jewish society but it seems like each community would have had some point of gathering, as can be seen when Paul, on his missionary journeys, would first go to the synagogue in each town (eg Act 17:1, 17:10, 17:17, 18:4), and, over the centuries, they added many other times of ceremony or celebration than just the main feasts. Singing, either by appointed singers or by the congregation, would have to have been a part of that. I suppose the current Jewish community, if that was the case, would still reflect that kind of song.

Sorry I cannot be more detailed about the place and purpose of music within our congregations... I've forgotten much of what has been taught from our pulpit on this matter and it would take a while for me to find (and re-read) the books that the ministers have written on the subject. It's been about 20 years since we last had a lot of studies done in this area and that was culmination of the previous 30 years of scriptural research on the subject.

So Ggz... I guess the strings, brass and percussion sections in the orchestra at my fellowship my be a bit too light on, these days, to perform your music (it's only half... or maybe a third... of what we use to have) but perhaps our Brisbane fellowship might be able to do it... all though... they're probably only putting maybe 30 or so musicians in the orchestra these days.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Ok then... musical notation would have to be a lot more recent innovation than from Biblical times. The Psalms were songs meant to be accompanied by instrumentation as can be seen from some of the performance instructions included with them. eg

Psa 4:1 For the Chief Musician; on stringed instruments. A Psalm of David. Answer me when I call, O God of my righteousness; Thou hast set me at large when I was in distress: Have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.
Psa 5:1 For the Chief Musician; with the Nehiloth. (probably something like a flute)
Psa 8:1 For the Chief Musician; set to the Gittith (harp).

Also Psalms were addressed to 'The Chief Musician' which would mean that they had groups or choirs to perform many of those pieces. Some of the Levites were appointed as musicians and singers 1Ch 15:19-22 so, in the Old Testament (at least), singing was done in groups. In the New Testament you have both individual singers who prophesy in song 1 Co 15:26 but there must also be a corporate song else how could teaching in song Col 3:16 be achieved? The other thing is, it seems, some Psalms were set to pre-existing music... the same as some hymns were set to popular music at the time they were written. I do not know how the Psalms were sung, in the original language, but in biblical times they would have been sung often enough so that everyone would know the tune... probably from the time that they were children.

Psa 9:1 For the Chief Musician; set to Muth-labben.

As for 4 part harmony... that's something we in 'civilized' society seem to have forgotten how to do. We've stepped back and allowed others to do that while we watch (it seems). My brethren in our New Guinea fellowships do the multipart harmonies as just a natural part of their singing. In my fellowship we were taught to listen to other singers and then find a part to fit together with them. (I just have to anyway... I am pretty bass-ic so carrying a melody is not really the best use of my voice).

Not sure how often people gathered together within Jewish society but it seems like each community would have had some point of gathering, as can be seen when Paul, on his missionary journeys, would first go to the synagogue in each town (eg Act 17:1, 17:10, 17:17, 18:4), and, over the centuries, they added many other times of ceremony or celebration than just the main feasts. Singing, either by appointed singers or by the congregation, would have to have been a part of that. I suppose the current Jewish community, if that was the case, would still reflect that kind of song.

Sorry I cannot be more detailed about the place and purpose of music within our congregations... I've forgotten much of what has been taught from our pulpit on this matter and it would take a while for me to find (and re-read) the books that the ministers have written on the subject. It's been about 20 years since we last had a lot of studies done in this area and that was culmination of the previous 30 years of scriptural research on the subject.

So Ggz... I guess the strings, brass and percussion sections in the orchestra at my fellowship my be a bit too light on, these days, to perform your music (it's only half... or maybe a third... of what we use to have) but perhaps our Brisbane fellowship might be able to do it... all though... they're probably only putting maybe 30 or so musicians in the orchestra these days.
My point, of course, is not there was no music throughout biblical history, but that it was largely influenced by the prevailing culture. There are some denominations which insist on abstaining from all instrumental accompaniment and music and have a cappella singing, which is actually just fine - if the singers are moderately skilled which, in most cases, they are not and the singing is really wretched. The downside to this view is that they see themselves as decidedly more spiritual than those churches which enjoy music, especially instrumental accompaniment.

The synagogue system within Judaism developed relatively late in its history, probably during the Maccabeean period and, thus, does not appear in any of the Old Testament. Whether or not there was congregational singing in the synagogues of the first century can be debated, but evidence, such as it is, seems to point toward performance music rather than congregational music. Indeed, four-part harmony was not fully developed for congregational use until the nineteenth century.

We now seem to be in a culture which is shunning congregational singing in favor of performance forms of music. This is being widely embraced with an apparent effort to entertain congregants rather to engage them, even though it can be argued that "worship teams" engage congregants better than traditional forms of church music.

Curiously, I visited a Pentecostal church several years ago which was part of a denomination which had a highly-regarded reputation for the quality of its congregational singing. During the entire two-hour service there was not so much as a murmur from the congregation. The rather tedious sermon lasted well over an hour and the two-personal praise team provided the music. There was no speaking in tongues, no "amens", no other verbal comments from the congregation, and no singing by the congregation at all.
 
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Harley.

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I agree that music is in scripture from Genesis through to Revelation, but it is probably in a form, as in worship in the Temple, which is completely alien to current ideas about Christian music. Music without words is just music, pure and simple. When you add words to the music, then it becomes a very different animal.
I highly disagree but we will have to agree to disagree on that.
 
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