R4R - BREAKING! Francis Celebrated Pagan Mayan Mass! (Tech issues cut off stream after 45 mins)

Pope Francis then turned to the fate of Jerusalem. She will see her ruin, he said, in another type of corruption, “the corruption that comes from unfaithfulness to love; she was not able to recognize the love of God in His Son.”

The holy city will be “trampled underfoot by pagans” and punished by the Lord, the Pope said, because she opened the doors of her heart to pagans.

“The paganization of life can occur, in our case the Christian life. Do we live as Christians? It seems like we do. But really our life is pagan, when these things happen: when we are seduced by Babylon and Jerusalem lives like Babylon. The two seek a synthesis which cannot be effected. And both are condemned. Are you a Christian? Are you Christian? Live like a Christian. Water and oil do not mix. They are always distinct. A contradictory society that professes Christianity but lives like a pagan shall end.”

Pope at Mass: ‘So-called Christian societies will end if pagan' - Vatican News

In his homily at Mass in the Casa Santa Marta on Thursday, Pope Francis reflects on the end of the world and says the Christian life cannot be ...

www.vaticannews.va

This reminds me somewhat of watching the movie "End of the Spear." A true story about an American evangelical group who was trying to evangelize the Waodani tribe in Eastern Ecuador. Well worth the watch if you can stand a movie with subtitles; they decided to film in the native language. The women in that story are amazing....

This tribe and another had been at war for who knows how long. The sister of the chief of the Waodani tribe ended up living with the missionaries for a time and came to know Christ. The Waodani themselves were monotheists -- they believed in one god who was the great creator. They called him Waengongi.

When the sister went back to the tribe they were surprised to find she had not been kidnapped as they had thought but had rather chosen to live with the missionaries. Her brother the chief asked what the missionaries wanted from them and she said they want to tell you that Waengongi has a son, and he wants us to stop killing each other.

Many fundamentalist groups went nuts over that. The idea that the Gospel could be presented in concepts and symbols that were already known to the Waodani tribe is very foreign to evangelical Protestatism. Their view of evangelization is to export American Protestantism and completely eradicate any spirituality already known to the culture. There is no concept as the catechism states in paragraph 843 that "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as 'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.'"

This is why this concept being proposed to offer a rite that includes aspect of the Mayan culture is not some "new" idea. The Native Americans have had a Catholic liturgy for quite some time that incorporates aspects of their spiritual culture. Both Archbishop Chaput and Bishop James Conley have explained that the Catholic faith can be complementary to spiritual practices in other cultures. Both very solid bishops imo.

So, the Lifesite articles says this "The ancient Mayan religion is permeated by polytheism (the earth, the sun, the moon, and animals are all regarded as being gods), by animism (belief that objects and creatures have a soul), by the belief in communication with one’s ancestors (and even worshipping them), and by human sacrifice (to include women and children) as part of its worship. As we shall show, many of these idolatrous elements will be included in this new rite of Mass."

I'm guessing they're not going to show how human sacrifice is going to be incorporated into the Catholic Mass as that's pretty incompatible with Catholicism but it does make for sensationalist reporting. But the concept of sacrifice can definitely but turned to a correct understanding. Catholics actually teach that creatures have souls, although not rational ones as humans do. And we also believe we can embrace those who have died within the communion of saints and they still pray and care for us. And while we don't believe that gods exist within the elements of nature, we do believe that the one true God has revealed something of who He is through nature. There are definitely things within their spiritual culture that can actually be embraced and redirected to a correct understanding of the Catholic faith.

Liturgical dance is also mentioned. While not approved for liturgy in the western part of the Church within Asian and African communities it has been because again, it was part of their culture and not seen to be incompatible with the faith. I see no reason why that should be any different here or should be a problem.

It can certainly be tricky business and care must be taken. And I would guess it's not possible the Church has never made mistakes in this regard that have to be corrected. But it beats the heck out of telling a culture that everything they've ever known or thought or expressed about God is evil and nothing is salvageable. That has never been the Catholic way. And I trust the Church more to get it right than those sitting on the outside who tend to think more like Protestants than Catholics about this.

I guess the question would be, How did the Apostles do things? Did they allow Romans to keep some pagan stuff and just blend things, or did they tell them to repent (change they way they think)?

But I can't imagine evangelizing somewhere like that, it's got to be a really hard job. I just read 1 Kings about Elijah yesterday, and he really mocked them about their pagan gods - talk about bold!

Music style, dance, most of those things have wiggle room if they are not against scripture. Keeping pagan gods next to the true God to help things along, that would pretty much nullify the point of evangelizing.

The word "Logos" came from Greek philosophy. It was a Greek philosophical concept long before the author of John's Gospel used it. It was not a Jewish or Christian term.

He used it because his primary audience was familiar with Greek thought and language.

The culture of the audience is important in apologetics.

The idea of the logos in Greek thought harks back at least to the 6th-century-BCE philosopher Heraclitus, who discerned in the cosmic process a logos analogous to the reasoning power in humans. Later, the Stoics, philosophers who followed the teachings of the thinker Zeno of Citium (4th–3rd century BCE), defined the logos as an active rational and spiritual principle that permeated all reality. They called the logos providence, nature, god, and the soul of the universe, which is composed of many seminal logoi that are contained in the universal logos. Philo Judaeus (Philo of Alexandria), a 1st-century-CE Jewish philosopher, taught that the logos was the intermediary between God and the cosmos, being both the agent of creation and the agent through which the human mind can apprehend and comprehend God. According to Philo and the Middle Platonists (philosophers who interpreted in religious terms the teachings of Plato), the logos was both immanent in the world and at the same time the transcendent divine mind.

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The author of The Gospel According to John used this philosophical expression, which easily would be recognizable to readers in the Hellenistic (Greek cultural) world, to emphasize the redemptive character of the person of Christ, whom the author describes as “the way, and the truth, and the life.”

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Markie Boy said:

I guess the question would be, How did the Apostles do things? Did they allow Romans to keep some pagan stuff and just blend things, or did they tell them to repent (change they way they think)?

But I can't imagine evangelizing somewhere like that, it's got to be a really hard job. I just read 1 Kings about Elijah yesterday, and he really mocked them about their pagan gods - talk about bold!

Music style, dance, most of those things have wiggle room if they are not against scripture. Keeping pagan gods next to the true God to help things along, that would pretty much nullify the point of evangelizing.

Click to expand...

Well, when St. Paul went to Athens and witnessed all of the idols there he didn't start smashing them or throwing them into the river. He found the altar they had made to an "unknown god" and used that as opportunity to open the door to the Gospel and told them what they had been worshipping as "unknown" was the one true God they should come to know.

When the church determined the Gentile converts didn't have to keep the Mosaic law they didn't follow up with the idea that everything they had known in their pagan culture had to be thrown out. Their requirement was pretty simple -- you can't be offering sacrifice to idols.

Those are the only two relevant passages of Scripture that I would be aware of that would somewhat apply here.

Bob Crowley said:

The word "Logos" came from Greek philosophy. It was a Greek philosophical concept long before the author of John's Gospel used it. It was not a Jewish or Christian term.

He used it because his primary audience was familiar with Greek thought and language.

The culture of the audience is important in apologetics.

Logos | Definition, History, & Facts

Logos, in Greek philosophy and early Christian theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. The concept became significant in Christian writings and doctrines as a vehicle for conceiving the role of Jesus Christ as the active principle of God in...

www.britannica.com

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This applies as well -- St. John took a known term from pagan culture and Christianized it.

One of my heartburns with the article is it falls right in line with those who want to claim the Catholic Church is "pagan." You see it in the resurrection of pagan type religions claiming Catholicism "copied" all of their stuff. You see it in other Christian religions claiming that Catholicism incorporated a lot of pagan practices. I sponsored a woman into the church who came from a Seventh Day Adventist background and it took a whole lot of work for her to be able to come to understand signs and symbols as things of God because of the indoctrination she'd had that all of these things were pagan.

The pagans had water cleansing rituals. They had rituals using oil to annoint. Pagan cultures circumcised before God made it a sign of his covenant with Abraham. There was a rainbow goddess before God used a rainbow as a sign of his covenant with Noah. There are those who claim the Catholic Church made up the Trinity based upon pagan mythology. There are Christians who say the cross is a pagan symbol and has no place in Christian worship. The list can go on, and on, and on.

God can take and cleanse and redeem many things from these cultures for His glory. Things that rightfully belong to Him. Thankfully the Church's practice allows Him to do that.

This is one of the issues I have with the right wing of our Church, whether they call themselves conservatives or traditionals, it doesn't matter. They see heresy everywhere now. There was a big beef among them over the weekend, because Pope Francis referred to hell as a state instead of a place, even though specifically it states in our catechism that hell is defined as a state of eternal separation from God. But that wasn't good enough, no.... Pope Francis was a heretic because he stated what was in the Catechism.

There is enough heretical actions being done by our clergy, without looking for it where it isn't.

There's a line from The Princess Bride that applies amply here: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

"Pagan" has become infamously popular in Catholic reactionary circles, especially after the massive "Pachamama" misunderstanding (which still fills me with both sadness & wry amusement). I know Paganism; I study it, both the living forms and the long extinct variants. Indeed, knowing about it forms an important part of my historical research into the ancient world or in non-Western cultures. To characterize this as "pagan" is rather absurd; and especially when we consider how the Church has generally dealt with actual Pagan societies.

Of course, if you start from a premise of seeing heresy everywhere, rejecting authentic Magisterial documents or newer liturgical books, and insisting on an unbending Neo-Thomistic theological paradigm on just about everything....well, this isn't a surprising reaction.

Indeed, I wonder what the Youtuber thinks would be appropriate for these people from his perspective. Enforcing & insisting on using the 1962 (or 1955?) Missal and Office on these still heavily indigenous people? Going around and destroying artwork, cultural items, or banning local traditions for being "pagan" (whatever that may mean...)? The absurdity of it is reminiscent of previous ages in the Church when overzealous churchmen literally destroyed precious documents, artifacts, and other valuable things because of "Paganism!" We still have difficulty translating Mayan hieroglyphs because of one very ignorant, imprudent Franciscan...

Let's cut through the sheer rubbish here, shall we?

The primary problem with Paganism from a Christian perspective is two-fold. The first and most obvious is idolatry. What is idolatry? The Catechism defines it well:

"2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. [...] 2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc."

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The second problem with Paganism is often the worldview that is created by idolatry and demonic influence. Many Pagan societies, past and present, have had serious problems with immorality, violence, and vice due to to these influences. As St. Augustine quipped of Roman paganism: if Jupiter can marry his sister (Juno), why can't a mortal man?

Thus, the Church's general response when encountering Pagan societies is to first deal with these problems. Ending polytheistic belief & idolatry, and also working to develop a moral life rooted in the Truth. Different pagan societies require different pastoral approaches in this effort. In the case of Amazonia, most the tribes are primitive (by modern civilized standards). Their ancestral religions aren't anything on par, generally, with the developed theologies of polytheism among, say ancient Romans or modern Hindus. Moreover, pagans are the easiest to convert comparative to other unbelievers. So it doesn't take much to begin the process of evangelizing Amazonian tribes, although there can be difficulties with less settled ones that are semi-nomadic.

One thing that the Church has learned the hard way in approaching extremely non-Western peoples with the Gospel is to absolutely NOT insist that they adopt Western culture and/or the Roman Rite simpliciter. This was the great mistake of the Chinese Rites Controversy, the Indian Schism, the failure of widespread adoption the Union of Brest, the Schism of American Ruthenians which created the OCA, and on and on. In fact, we seem to repeat it so much it's almost insane.

And part of what drives this insanity is the inability to distinguish between idolatry & immorality (true Paganism) and cultural differences. Take China for example: It was long thought that veneration of Confucius or the keeping of tablets of the ancestors or Confucian "temples" were pagan and could not be tolerated by Chinese Catholics. Yet, this was a grave error which, when the Qīng Kāngxī Emperor became aware of the Pope condemning basically all of it as "pagan," the Emperor rightly wrote:

"Reading this proclamation [of the Pope], I have concluded that the Westerners are petty indeed. It is impossible to reason with them because they do not understand larger issues as we understand them in China. There is not a single Westerner versed in Chinese works, and their remarks are often incredible and ridiculous. To judge from this proclamation, their religion is no different from other small, bigoted sects of Buddhism or Taoism. I have never seen a document which contains so much nonsense."

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Tragically, the Emperor concluded:

"From now on, Westerners should not be allowed to preach in China, to avoid further trouble."

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Naturally, this also eventually led to persecution under the Yōngzhèng Emperor, and only steadily increased over time. And why? Because of a foolhardy decision. Confucianism is more a philosophy than a religion. To honor Confucius is even less than the dulia we Catholics give to the saints! It is similar with ancestral "worship." Indeed, Confucian "temples" aren't even places of worship as much as they are schools where the Chinese classics are taught. It's really no wonder the Westerners condemning these practices were seen as ignorant...because they were.

It would take Ven. Pius XII, a masterful theologian, many centuries later to clarify this issue. But by then how many Chinese souls had been lost because of the phobia of "paganism!"? How many opportunities to spread the Gospel were thrown away needlessly?

An idol is a specific thing/concept. Idolatry is a specific concept. Paganism is a behavior rooted in these specific concepts. If you cannot demonstrate that any one of these specific things are happening in attempts at genuine Catholic inculturation, then you are engaging in false witness, rash judgement, and calumny. That hardly makes a Catholic "traditional" unless we understand Catholic Tradition as affirming sin...which is blasphemous.

As the (pre-Vatican II) St. Ignatius of Loyola taught: "Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. and if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved."

Seeing indigenous artwork or statues and assuming & claiming loudly that they are being used sinfully or in bad faith is itself sinful (oh the irony...). This even more so when the Ecumenical Pontiff of Rome is included in the presumption of evil!

This ridiculous nonsense and fearmongering must stop. It has no place in the Catholic Church. It's fundamentalist-type behavior that leads to nothing but division in the Church and the loss of souls. It's almost physically sickening how popular this utter rot has become...

Reader Antonius said:

There's a line from The Princess Bride that applies amply here: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

"Pagan" has become infamously popular in Catholic reactionary circles, especially after the massive "Pachamama" misunderstanding (which still fills me with both sadness & wry amusement). I know Paganism; I study it, both the living forms and the long extinct variants. Indeed, knowing about it forms an important part of my historical research into the ancient world or in non-Western cultures. To characterize this as "pagan" is rather absurd; and especially when we consider how the Church has generally dealt with actual Pagan societies.

Of course, if you start from a premise of seeing heresy everywhere, rejecting authentic Magisterial documents or newer liturgical books, and insisting on an unbending Neo-Thomistic theological paradigm on just about everything....well, this isn't a surprising reaction.

Indeed, I wonder what the Youtuber thinks would be appropriate for these people from his perspective. Enforcing & insisting on using the 1962 (or 1955?) Missal and Office on these still heavily indigenous people? Going around and destroying artwork, cultural items, or banning local traditions for being "pagan" (whatever that may mean...)? The absurdity of it is reminiscent of previous ages in the Church when overzealous churchmen literally destroyed precious documents, artifacts, and other valuable things because of "Paganism!" We still have difficulty translating Mayan hieroglyphs because of one very ignorant, imprudent Franciscan...

Let's cut through the sheer rubbish here, shall we?

The primary problem with Paganism from a Christian perspective is two-fold. The first and most obvious is idolatry. What is idolatry? The Catechism defines it well:



The second problem with Paganism is often the worldview that is created by idolatry and demonic influence. Many Pagan societies, past and present, have had serious problems with immorality, violence, and vice due to to these influences. As St. Augustine quipped of Roman paganism: if Jupiter can marry his sister (Juno), why can't a mortal man?

Thus, the Church's general response when encountering Pagan societies is to first deal with these problems. Ending polytheistic belief & idolatry, and also working to develop a moral life rooted in the Truth. Different pagan societies require different pastoral approaches in this effort. In the case of Amazonia, most the tribes are primitive (by modern civilized standards). Their ancestral religions aren't anything on par, generally, with the developed theologies of polytheism among, say ancient Romans or modern Hindus. Moreover, pagans are the easiest to convert comparative to other unbelievers. So it doesn't take much to begin the process of evangelizing Amazonian tribes, although there can be difficulties with less settled ones that are semi-nomadic.

One thing that the Church has learned the hard way in approaching extremely non-Western peoples with the Gospel is to absolutely NOT insist that they adopt Western culture and/or the Roman Rite simpliciter. This was the great mistake of the Chinese Rites Controversy, the Indian Schism, the failure of widespread adoption the Union of Brest, the Schism of American Ruthenians which created the OCA, and on and on. In fact, we seem to repeat it so much it's almost insane.

And part of what drives this insanity is the inability to distinguish between idolatry & immorality (true Paganism) and cultural differences. Take China for example: It was long thought that veneration of Confucius or the keeping of tablets of the ancestors or Confucian "temples" were pagan and could not be tolerated by Chinese Catholics. Yet, this was a grave error which, when the Qīng Kāngxī Emperor became aware of the Pope condemning basically all of it as "pagan," the Emperor rightly wrote:



Tragically, the Emperor concluded:



Naturally, this also eventually led to persecution under the Yōngzhèng Emperor, and only steadily increased over time. And why? Because of a foolhardy decision. Confucianism is more a philosophy than a religion. To honor Confucius is even less than the dulia we Catholics give to the saints! It is similar with ancestral "worship." Indeed, Confucian "temples" aren't even places of worship as much as they are schools where the Chinese classics are taught. It's really no wonder the Westerners condemning these practices were seen as ignorant...because they were.

It would take Ven. Pius XII, a masterful theologian, many centuries later to clarify this issue. But by then how many Chinese souls had been lost because of the phobia of "paganism!"? How many opportunities to spread the Gospel were thrown away needlessly?

An idol is a specific thing/concept. Idolatry is a specific concept. Paganism is a behavior rooted in these specific concepts. If you cannot demonstrate that any one of these specific things are happening in attempts at genuine Catholic inculturation, then you are engaging in false witness, rash judgement, and calumny. That hardly makes a Catholic "traditional" unless we understand Catholic Tradition as affirming sin...which is blasphemous.

As the (pre-Vatican II) St. Ignatius of Loyola taught: "Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. and if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved."

Seeing indigenous artwork or statues and assuming & claiming loudly that they are being used sinfully or in bad faith is itself sinful (oh the irony...). This even more so when the Ecumenical Pontiff of Rome is included in the presumption of evil!

This ridiculous nonsense and fearmongering must stop. It has no place in the Catholic Church. It's fundamentalist-type behavior that leads to nothing but division in the Church and the loss of souls. It's almost physically sickening how popular this utter rot has become...

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Well said. This should be published in one of the many Catholic magazines.

The Diocese of San Cristobal de Las Casas had been disciplined under the pontificate of Benedict XVI for having introduced a new indigenous married permanent diaconate in which the wives of the married deacons were included in the ministry, thus giving hopes for a married priesthood. Rome even ordered in 2005 then-Bishop Arizmendi to stop such ordinations. Very quickly after Pope Francis’ election to the papal throne, however, this situation was completely reversed, and the Pope is actively encouraging the liturgical “inculturation” that is being pursued in Southern Mexico.

As we shall see, the official document about this new Mayan rite of Mass is following this path of strengthening the role of the male and female laity at Mass and including many Mayan rituals that have idolatrous meaning in the Mayan religion.

Go here BREAKING: Official draft of new Mayan rite of Mass confirms elements of ancient pagan worship, lay 'principals' - LifeSite to read the rest. So, no traditional Mass, while pagan rites are incorporated in new “masses”. Whatever this is, it isn’t Catholicism.

Continued below.

I used to like the Lifesite News, but they have gone so far right recently that they are at times posting things that just flat out not true, to make Pope Francis look worse than he is.

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of Pope Francis, he is not the type of pope that inspires me; and he just so dang confusing to follow at times, which may have to be due to the translations we are getting, I don't know. But the editor at Lifesite has joined the likes of Taylor Marshall in going too far outside the boundaries of the orthodox faith just to bash the Pope for every word he speaks, to make them believable anymore.

It would be nice to see the rite myself, instead of going off of hearsay. But Lifesite does not provide the evidence for their accusations, which is a shock,... well not really coming from them.

Erose said:

I used to like the Lifesite News, but they have gone so far right recently that they are at times posting things that just flat out not true, to make Pope Francis look worse than he is.

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of Pope Francis, he is not the type of pope that inspires me; and he just so dang confusing to follow at times, which may have to be due to the translations we are getting, I don't know. But the editor at Lifesite has joined the likes of Taylor Marshall in going too far outside the boundaries of the orthodox faith just to bash the Pope for every word he speaks, to make them believable anymore.

It would be nice to see the rite myself, instead of going off of hearsay. But Lifesite does not provide the evidence for their accusations, which is a shock,... well not really coming from them.

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I went to look for the link to the proposed rite myself and was not surprised they didn't link to it. They rarely ever provide an easy way to review their evidence for their claims.

Many of us are not fans of Pope Francis for the reasons you mention. But we also recognize that many of the attacks against him have not been warranted and they seem to spend an extraodinary amount of time looking to find something wrong. And I've found instances where their claim has been manipulated or even false when you can find the primary evidence to review for yourself.

I tend to lean to the National Catholic Register when I want to know if something is really a newsworthy story or not. Not perfect, but the one I'm most comfortable with. Nothing came up on the Mayans and this story, which is telling to me. What is happening is not extremely newsworthy in their view it seems. They did have a nice article by Fr. Dwight Longenecker related to the Mayan culture that covers some of the principle points to understand in this situation. I liked this quote:

"What went before in all the pagan myths, the pagan rites and the pagan sacrifices was simply a foreshadowing of what was to come. The Mass is only related to the Mayans as an oak tree is related to an acorn. The acorn holds within itself the oak tree, but the oak tree is the living fulfillment of the acorn. So the Mayan sacrifices, and all the pagan religions were seeds of what was to come."


It's those seeds within their faith that foreshadow Christ that the Church is trying to help bring forth to bear fruit in an authentically Catholic way in my opinion.

Michie said:

with a proposal for a Novus Ordo "Mayan Rite". It will be presented to the Mexican bishops in April and to the Vatican in May.

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Prayers it not be allowed with the pagan symbolism currently referred to.

Although as I posted above the Pope's reaction, I don't think it will get Papal approval.

The holy city will be “trampled underfoot by pagans” and punished by the Lord, the Pope said, because she opened the doors of her heart to pagans.

“The paganization of life can occur, in our case the Christian life. Do we live as Christians? It seems like we do. But really our life is pagan, when these things happen: when we are seduced by Babylon and Jerusalem lives like Babylon. The two seek a synthesis which cannot be effected. And both are condemned. Are you a Christian? Are you Christian? Live like a Christian. Water and oil do not mix. They are always distinct. A contradictory society that professes Christianity but lives like a pagan shall end.”

Click to expand...

narnia59 said:

"What went before in all the pagan myths, the pagan rites and the pagan sacrifices was simply a foreshadowing of what was to come. The Mass is only related to the Mayans as an oak tree is related to an acorn. The acorn holds within itself the oak tree, but the oak tree is the living fulfillment of the acorn. So the Mayan sacrifices, and all the pagan religions were seeds of what was to come."

The Mayans, the Mass and Me

Belize is one of my favorite vacation locations. I like the snorkeling and snoozing, but I also like the ancient religious ruins. (My kids like to joke that I...

www.ncregister.com

It's those seeds within their faith that foreshadow Christ that the Church is trying to help bring forth to bear fruit in an authentically Catholic way in my opinion.

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I used to argue with my brother... that pagans without any knowledge of the Lord [native americans for instance] were given the laws of the Lord in their hearts as St Paul stated.
The Lord did not forsake them. They intuitively understood the laws, though obviously imperfectly.

And sacrificial offerings from pagans came from a deep inner knowledge that sacrifice was indeed necessary for our sins.
They did not know of His truths of His Trinity, but they knew that a Great Being had to be the Creator.