Changing your mind about prophecy

Douggg · Feb 7, 2023

DavidPT said:
Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Apparently then, this means you envision all of eternity being like what is depicted here. This verse alone shows how nonsensical it is to apply the day of Lord to all of eternity. This verse does not say the day of the Lord shall be light, it says it won't be because it will be darkness instead. This verse says, even very dark, and no brightness in it. What shall be? The day of the Lord.

But if at any time it is no longer involving darkness, it then can no longer be the day of the Lord at that point. And since there has to be a new heaven and new earth at some point, it couldn't possibly still be involving darkness, even very dark, and no brightness in it, once we reach that era of time.

In Amos 5, the Jews were looking forward to the Day of the Lord (verse 18) because it would last forever as a time of bliss. What they did not realize that, for them, they would have to go through the great tribulation part of it first.

TribulationSigns · Feb 7, 2023

Douggg said:
What about these verses, actual events to occur or not ?

(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

I believe it is happening right now. And no it is not what you think that they should be physical signs (which is typically what premillennialists believe). This calls for spiritual discernment.

In context, the verses are about the judgment of the unfaithful city (the church), and the language of every island and mountain fled away denotes nothing could stand against God's righteous judgments. Again the islands and mountains here refer "SPECIFICALLY" to the churches. Mountains and islands are used in Scripture to refer to kingdoms, and often are the representation of the Lord's Kingdom. Islands because they as a refuge, retreat, shelter, or oasis seated in the midst of the sea (symbolizing the world), and thus used as a representation of God's Kingdom. And Mountain because in the past they were also illustrating places of protection. Those who are weary of sin flee as a bird to their mountain because that is where the protection of God is. It is the lofty place of safety from attack, and thus it is often used to represent the protection of God's kingdom. For example, we are those in the mountains that go forth to bring the good news of the gospel (Isaiah 52:7).

Isaiah 51:5

"My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust."

Isles are the same as Islands. Islands here represent the Lord's kingdom. As also seen in Isaiah 60.

Isaiah 60:9

"Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee."

Mountains often have the same representation of His kingdom:

Psalms 87:1-3

"His foundation is in the holy mountains.
The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah."

also...

Psalms 11:12

"...In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?
For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart."

Psalms 121:1-2

"I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth."

The word translated hill is the exact same word translated mountain. Mount Zion represents the kingdom of God. Not a physical piece of land in Israel. Thus when we read Revelation 16:20, in its proper context, and in harmonious relationship to the whole Bible, we see this is God's judgment specifically on the unfaithful church, whom He had warned of their removal before. They are being removed as a consequence of their disobedience.

Revelation 16:20

"And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Compare this with what God warned the "fallen church" that He would do as a judgment if they didn't repent and do the first works:

Revelation 2:5

"Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

This is the fate of the fallen church, to be moved out of its place. i.e., as symbolized also in Revelation chapter 6:

Revelation 6:14

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

See? Their place was as a New Testament representation of the kingdom of God (as Old Testament Israel's was before it fell), but because of their abominations, God's spirit is removed from them and they are no longer houses of God. In that verse, the heaven departing like a scroll "signifies" the representation of the Kingdom of Heaven is gone from them (as with Israel before them -Matthew 21:43), and it is done "like a scroll closed" to "signify" the Word of God being shut up to them. This is what the famine of hearing the word of God about! (Amos 8). This is the fulfillment of what God promised the church in Revelation chapter 2 would happen if they didn't repent of their evil works. God's judgment upon the churches was realized.

Like I said many times, it is spiritual discernment to understand what God actually talks about.

Those who have ears, let him hear!

BobRyan · Feb 7, 2023

Douggg said:
What about these verses, actual events to occur or not ?

(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

real events although the "stars falling" are in the sense that we mean when we talk about seeing falling stars.

keras · Feb 7, 2023

BobRyan said:
real events although the "stars falling" are in the sense that we mean when we talk about seeing falling stars.

Yes: all the vividly Prophesied effects described to happen on the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, can and will literally happen.
The natural event which the Lord will use, is well known, but because of the blindness which the Lord imposes onto those who choose to believe false theories, it will come as a sudden and nasty surprise to most people; Christians included.

TribulationSigns · Feb 8, 2023

BobRyan said:
real events although the "stars falling" are in the sense that we mean when we talk about seeing falling stars.

The heaven signifies the kingdom of Heaven (on earth, where the church is a representation). The stars means that these are fallen messengers, people of the Lord's New Testament Israel (church) who were overcome of the enemy where they are no longer of the kingdom representative. That is the symbolism of stars falling away from heaven. It is the messengers losing the kingdom, because they were never saved/sealed. They were stars destined to fall and lose their position in the Kingdom.

For example, look at the old testament congregation...
Matthew 21:42-43

"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

How could these people, the Jews, (signifies stones) lose their Kingdom? Only in that, the Great Dragon Satan had deceived them (as he had Judas) where they fell away from the Covenant of God. They lost the Kingdom because of unbelief. Meaning, the Spiritual Kingdom wasn't really within them, they simply sampled or tasted of the heavenly gift merely by being Covenanted children to whom the Promises pertained. But without receiving a Spiritual gift or Promise.

John 18:36

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

His Kingdom is not of this world, and yet we (His People) live and reign with Christ in heavenly places "in this world." How? Because we, Spiritually speaking, have a spiritual home that is in heaven. And we are this Kingdom of heaven represented here in earth, striving to do His will in earth, as it is in heaven. Selah! So the stars falling during the 6th seal in the New Testament speaks about the fallen messengers of the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION just like Israel was at the Cross.

Now, why stars? We are symbolized by stars because we are of Christ, who is the bright and morning Star. And we reflect His light to the world as stars. Just as we are Israel because Christ is the true Israel of God, or we are sons of God because Christ is the true Son of God, or we are the seed because Christ is the Seed, We are the stars and Christ is the star, etc., etc. Think about it. The stars were designated in the beginning of creation as the lessor lights of the heavens, and that is why God uses them to symbolize His messengers! For example, we are Messengers of light. And Satan's minions are those who come transformed to "appear" as messengers of light.

So when John says he saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth, that is symbolic language to signify the falling away of the unsaved messengers of the Church!! Not unlike what we saw in Revelation 12 of the falling away of stars representing Messengers of the Old congregation of God losing the Kingdom. So shall it be near the end of the world, when apostasy shall be in the New Testament Churches and Satan is loosed and the stars will fall? NOT literal balls of fire out there in space, but people of the kingdom of heaven. In other words, those of the Church or congregation. Another example:

Daniel 8:9-12

"And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered."

Doesn't it follow that if the stars are not literal stars, then the place they are said to be residing in (heaven) is symbolic as well? Daniel is speaking of the little horn, the spirit Satan as he is given power to assault the Church for a short season. This is what the little horn signifies! They being spoken of again as the stars, the host of heaven. The Prince or Ruler of the Host is Christ, He is the Prince of the congregation or Church, right? So, this is the same cryptic language as found in Revelation of stars falling! Here it pictures Satan's reign as this little horn (small power) waxed great, even to the host of heaven, and it cast down SOME (not all) of the host and of the stars to the ground and stamped upon them. Clearly this speaks of the unsealed or unsaved people of God's congregation that are falling, being removed from the host (kingdom).
And so comparing scripture with scripture, we should not be too surprised about the heaven and stars in Revelation being symbolic also. Even in the context of Revelation 9:1. A star here and there is the Messenger of God's congregation.

God obviously did NOT talk about literal stars out there in space here. But symbolizing His people in His kingdom on Earth. Only the Dispensationalists with carnal minds will believe this literal nonsense - Just like the Jews thought Christ was talking about a physical temple when speaking about His Body, the congregation.

BobRyan · Feb 8, 2023

TribulationSigns said:
The heaven signifies the kingdom of Heaven (on earth

That is never the case in scripture, but the term "kingdom of Heaven" does refer to Heaven and on Earth those that are God's people - but as Matt 5 says "there's is the kingdom of heaven" is a promise. For on this earth , even in the NT - Satan is "the god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4.

Jesus said at His trial "my kingdom is not of this world - else would my servants fight to deliver me".

The suffering persecuted church model is the one we are under at present - so then millions upon millions of Christians slain by the rulers of this world.

TribulationSigns · Feb 8, 2023

BobRyan said:
That is never the case in scripture, but the term "kingdom of Heaven" does refer to Heaven and on Earth those that are God's people - but as Matt 5 says "there's is the kingdom of heaven" is a promise. For on this earth , even in the NT - Satan is "the god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4.

Jesus said at His trial "my kingdom is not of this world - else would my servants fight to deliver me".

The suffering persecuted church model is the one we are under at present - so then millions upon millions of Christians slain by the rulers of this world.

What you fail to realize is that the "kingdom of Heaven" is the CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL within the world, starting with the Old Testament Israel and then after the cross, the New Testament, the Church, as an Earthly representative of that kingdom! On Earth, they both represent the one and the same spiritual kingdom. For example, there is only one Woman. One Israel. And the people of that kingdom are God's believers - making up of both the True Elect and Professed (unsaved) believers.

BobRyan · Feb 8, 2023

TribulationSigns said:
What you fail to realize is that the "kingdom of Heaven" is the CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL within the world, starting with the Old Testament Israel and then after the cross

I already stated that the Kingdom of heaven includes those in heaven - and also those on Earth who are God's people.

But the Lord's prayer "thy Kingdom COME, Thy will be done on EARTH as it IS in HEAVEN" is not talking about history - it is making a request for God's kingdom to come to Earth.

Satan is the god of this world - 2 Cor 4:4. But this world is not the kingdom of heaven.

"My kingdom is NOT of this world else would my servants fight that I should not be taken captive" shoots the entire "Kingdom on Earth" idea because no Jews, and no disciples were at war with Rome fighting to rescue Christ. When Peter tries that idea out - Jesus said He could call 12 legions of Angels if needed - but this is the hour of darkness and He was to be taken.

falling stars - fall from the sky - not from Israel, -- The text is literal.

(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

a. The sun- the literal sun as it appears in the sky
b. appeared black - the real literal color black
c. The moon - the real literal moon
d. became as blood - the real color of blood - literally as it appeared in the sky

(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

a. the stars of heaven (real literal shooting stars)
b. fell to earth (real literal falling to real literal earth)

(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places
a. Heavens departed as a scroll - the real literal atmosphere/sky
b. rolled up (parted) as would a scroll
c. every mountain - real literal mountains
d. Island - real literal islands
e. Were moved - real literal moving

TribulationSigns · Feb 8, 2023

BobRyan said:
I already stated that the Kingdom of heaven includes those in heaven - and also those on Earth who are God's people.

But the Lord's prayer "thy Kingdom COME, Thy will be done on EARTH as it IS in HEAVEN" is not talking about history - it is making a request for God's kingdom to come to Earth.

Satan is the god of this world - 2 Cor 4:4. But this world is not the kingdom of heaven.

This false premise is that all cannot be fulfilled at Christ's second coming unless He physically comes to reign on Earth by bringing His kingdom to us. Once again, that is not only untrue, it shows a lack of understanding of prophecy. Christ clearly ALREADY has a kingdom, comforted and brought peace to Jerusalem, freed its prisoners, and the saints already reign with him and execute his will on earth, as it is in heaven.

Matthew 16:19

"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Literally in the text, "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven." The truth is that we already reign with Christ on Earth, and we already have the key or authority of the Kingdom of heaven wherein we execute His will on earth. It is through the Holy Spirit within us to the preaching of the gospel. Moreover, Christ said that this generation or family of evil will not pass until all is fulfilled. There is no second or third resurrection or earthly reign by Christ necessary. Because the prophets didn't prophesy of a literal earthly reign anymore than they prophesied of a Branch, Literal Shepherd, literal Wolves or literal Elijah coming before Christ.

Matthew 13:35

"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

The problem is, not all will understand the parables because it remains as much a secret to them as the abomination of Desolation does.

Isaiah 66:12-13

"For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem."

BobRyan said:
falling stars - fall from the sky - not from Israel, -- The text is literal.

(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

a. The sun- the literal sun as it appears in the sky
b. appeared black - the real literal color black
c. The moon - the real literal moon
d. became as blood - the real color of blood - literally as it appeared in the sky

Stop it. First let's go to Revelation 12...

Rev 12:1-6
(1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And ask yourself the questions:
Did God talk about a literal woman floating in space with our Sol Star as her clothing? Her 12 stars are literal stars over her head? Did she actually stand on the moon away from Earth? Did Satan play with balls of fire, millions of light years away, with his literal tail? How did the woman give birth to a child ON EARTH while was in space? See no one will make any sense of these as long as they have carnal minds.

Come on, seriously! What made you think God was actually talking about the sun, moon, and stars in the book of revelation which is replete with imagery, symbols, and monikers? This can only be understood by those with the spirit of Christ - spiritually discerned! It is not what you think these are, especially those who are indoctrinated by Hollywood disaster movies!

(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

a. the stars of heaven (real literal shooting stars)
b. fell to earth (real literal falling to real literal earth)

Sigh. Do you understand astronomy at all? Tell me... what will make the literal stars "fall" unto the earth? Do you realize how far the stars are from our planet and how far apart are between the stars? And how long will it take many stars to travel to Earth even at the speed of light? Look, if you believe the physical stars, with many even larger and, have more mass than our wimpy sun, will literally travel to our solar system even with the speed of light to hit our defenseless planet called Earth? Do you realize that she will no longer be a planet for your literal vision of New Jerusalem to sit, right? Do you even know what the shooting stars are? They are not actual stars, but meteors, the figment of a comet's tail that traveled long ago. This is not what John sees, period!

I am sorry but no, the physical things you believe will occur will not come to pass. You need to learn to compare the sun, moon, star, woman, Satan's tail, horns, heads, river, tree, and green things with the rest of Scripture to find God's definition for these! Remember it's God's interpretation that we need to search in Scripture as long as the Holy Spirit allows us to discern what God actually talked about. Okay? Don't get yourself end up like the Jews of Old when they thought Christ was talking about a physical temple when he told them to destroy it and he will rebuild it in three days!

Spiritual discerned, dude!

FredVB · Mar 20, 2023

Any can change their mind, most do not, even among believers about biblical prophecy, while they disagree with one another. It really shows the uncertainty of the means of prophecies though. It will be like when Christ came the first time in the incarnation, and those watching for fulfillment of prophecy still were missing fulfillment for that, with their expectations. We will know the meaning of the symbolic prophecies when they are being fulfilled.

My mind changed from what things I was taught when I saw how things happening with our civilization were also fulfilling biblical prophecies, in ways I never saw taught, but meaning then Mystery Babylon is near to its collapse and fall. Believers are not at all necessarily going to be caught up from this world to be with the Lord before that, though when the rapture would be is most uncertain in biblical prophecies.

Marilyn C · Mar 20, 2023

John Helpher said:
Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.

The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.

The person in the video uses what Jesus says to Israel in the gospels. Whereas Jesus, the Head of His Body tells us differently. When the Body is mature, we will go to be with the Lord in glory. Many will be martyred before that, however it is the `dying to self,` that matures us not going through the judgments of God in the trib.

Marilyn C · Mar 20, 2023

FredVB said:
Any can change their mind, most do not, even among believers about biblical prophecy, while they disagree with one another. It really shows the uncertainty of the means of prophecies though. It will be like when Christ came the first time in the incarnation, and those watching for fulfillment of prophecy still were missing fulfillment for that, with their expectations. We will know the meaning of the symbolic prophecies when they are being fulfilled.

My mind changed from what things I was taught when I saw how things happening with our civilization were also fulfilling biblical prophecies, in ways I never saw taught, but meaning then Mystery Babylon is near to its collapse and fall. Believers are not at all necessarily going to be caught up from this world to be with the Lord before that, though when the rapture would be is most uncertain in biblical prophecies.

`But you, brethren, are NOT in darkness so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. `(1 Thess. 5: 4)

`...exhorting one another, and so much the MORE as you SEE the Day approaching. ` (Heb. 10: 25)

BobRyan · Mar 21, 2023

TribulationSigns said:
What you fail to realize is that the "kingdom of Heaven" is the CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL within the world, starting with the Old Testament Israel and then after the cross

I already stated that the Kingdom of heaven includes those in heaven - and also those on Earth who are God's people.

But the Lord's prayer "thy Kingdom COME, Thy will be done on EARTH as it IS in HEAVEN" is not talking about history - it is making a request for God's kingdom to come to Earth.

Satan is the god of this world - 2 Cor 4:4. But this world is not the kingdom of heaven.

"My kingdom is NOT of this world else would my servants fight that I should not be taken captive" shoots the entire "Kingdom on Earth" idea because no Jews, and no disciples were at war with Rome fighting to rescue Christ. When Peter tries that idea out - Jesus said He could call 12 legions of Angels if needed - but this is the hour of darkness and He was to be taken.

falling stars - fall from the sky - not from Israel, -- The text is literal.

(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

a. The sun- the literal sun as it appears in the sky
b. appeared black - the real literal color black
c. The moon - the real literal moon
d. became as blood - the real color of blood - literally as it appeared in the sky

(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

a. the stars of heaven (real literal shooting stars)
b. fell to earth (real literal falling to real literal earth)

(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places
a. Heavens departed as a scroll - the real literal atmosphere/sky
b. rolled up (parted) as would a scroll
c. every mountain - real literal mountains
d. Island - real literal islands
e. Were moved - real literal moving

TribulationSigns said:
This false premise is that all cannot be fulfilled at Christ's second coming unless He physically comes to reign on Earth by bringing His kingdom to us.

Not my premise.

My premise is that we notice the obvious - the Lord's prayer makes a request "Thy kingdom come" (so then a future event) , "Thy will be done" a future event since obviously 2 Cor 4:4 satan is "the god of this world".

This much is irrefutable.

TribulationSigns said:
Once again, that is not only untrue, it shows a lack of understanding of prophecy.

TribulationSigns said:
Christ clearly ALREADY has a kingdom, comforted and brought peace to Jerusalem

Not true. Jerusalem is a mess.
God's kingdom is yet to come.

This world is a mess.

This is irrefutable.

TribulationSigns said:
, freed its prisoners, and the saints already reign with him and execute his will on earth, as it is in heaven.

Jesus' prayer refutes that speculation.

His prayer is not of the form "Our Father in Heaven thank you that the saints already reign with Christ on Earth as it is in heaven"

This is irrefutable - all readers can see this point in Matt 6.

Christ tells His followers that just as He was persecuted and killed - so also will they be persecuted and killed.
John 16:1-4 and those who do it - will think they are serving God in killing the followers of Christ. Hint: the dark ages.

TribulationSigns said:
Matthew 16:19

"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Literally in the text, "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven." The truth is that we already reign with Christ

Matt 16 does not say "you already reign with Christ". And it also does not say Satan is stopped being the "god of this world". Rather 2 Cor 4:4 affirms that point.

TribulationSigns said:
Isaiah 66:12-13

"For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.

As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem."

Is 66 is a great example of a prophecy of a future event

Is 66:23 in the NEW Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship".
Not happening today.
Will not happen on Earth until the creation of the New Earth in Rev 21 following the literal millennium

BobRyan · Mar 21, 2023

BobRyan said:
falling stars - fall from the sky - not from Israel, -- The text is literal. Rev 6

(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

a. The sun- the literal sun as it appears in the sky
b. appeared black - the real literal color black
c. The moon - the real literal moon
d. became as blood - the real color of blood - literally as it appeared in the sky

BobRyan said:
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

a. the stars of heaven (real literal shooting stars)
b. fell to earth (real literal falling to real literal earth)

(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places
a. Heavens departed as a scroll - the real literal atmosphere/sky
b. rolled up (parted) as would a scroll
c. every mountain - real literal mountains
d. Island - real literal islands
e. Were moved - real literal moving

TribulationSigns said:
Stop it. First let's go to Revelation 12...

No need to go to Rev 12 before going to Rev 6

TribulationSigns said:
Rev 12:1-6
(1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Rev 12 points to Satan using the roman empire to try and kill Christ at His birth and then it gets to the part where Christ was ascended to heaven after the cross

TribulationSigns said:
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Indeed. And as Dan 9 points out for all apocalyptic prophecy - they use "day for literal year" - so then the 490 days of Dan 9 are a 490 year timeline pointing the reader of Dan 9 to the first coming of Christ where His ministry starts at the 70th week start point AD 27, He is crucified in the midst of that week of year - AD 31 and the entire timeline ends in 34 A.D.

So then in Rev 12 (as in Dan 7) that 1260 days is in fact 1260 years (called the dark ages in modern terms) - from 538 to 1798 A.D.

TribulationSigns said:
And ask yourself the questions:
Did God talk about a literal woman floating in space with our Sol Star as her clothing?

No. The Book of Revelation is apocalyptic writing and has many symbols in it - but God is till God in Rev 12, Satan is said to be the dragon in Rev 12 so the text explains its own symbol in that case..

TribulationSigns said:
Come on, seriously! What made you think God was actually talking about the sun, moon, and stars in the book of revelation

Because He gave the same future literal prediction in Matt 24 where no symbols at all are used.

Matt 24

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Matt 24 had already informed the Rev 12 reader that this part was literal.

TribulationSigns said:
Sigh. Do you understand astronomy at all? Tell me... what will make the literal stars "fall" unto the earth?

Literal "star fall" -- a falling star.

Here is what NASA says

Question: What causes a "falling star"?

What causes a "falling star"?

starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov

Answer: A "falling star" or a "shooting star" has nothing at all to do with a star! These amazing streaks of light you can sometimes see in the night sky are caused by tiny bits of dust and rock called meteoroids falling into the Earth's atmosphere and burning up.

Marilyn C · Mar 21, 2023

BobRyan said:
I already stated that the Kingdom of heaven includes those in heaven - and also those on Earth who are God's people.

But the Lord's prayer "thy Kingdom COME, Thy will be done on EARTH as it IS in HEAVEN" is not talking about history - it is making a request for God's kingdom to come to Earth.

Satan is the god of this world - 2 Cor 4:4. But this world is not the kingdom of heaven.

"My kingdom is NOT of this world else would my servants fight that I should not be taken captive" shoots the entire "Kingdom on Earth" idea because no Jews, and no disciples were at war with Rome fighting to rescue Christ. When Peter tries that idea out - Jesus said He could call 12 legions of Angels if needed - but this is the hour of darkness and He was to be taken.

falling stars - fall from the sky - not from Israel, -- The text is literal.

(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

a. The sun- the literal sun as it appears in the sky
b. appeared black - the real literal color black
c. The moon - the real literal moon
d. became as blood - the real color of blood - literally as it appeared in the sky

(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

a. the stars of heaven (real literal shooting stars)
b. fell to earth (real literal falling to real literal earth)

(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places
a. Heavens departed as a scroll - the real literal atmosphere/sky
b. rolled up (parted) as would a scroll
c. every mountain - real literal mountains
d. Island - real literal islands
e. Were moved - real literal moving

Not my premise.

My premise is that we notice the obvious - the Lord's prayer makes a request "Thy kingdom come" (so then a future event) , "Thy will be done" a future event since obviously 2 Cor 4:4 satan is "the god of this world".

This much is irrefutable.

Not true. Jerusalem is a mess.
God's kingdom is yet to come.

This world is a mess.

This is irrefutable.

Jesus' prayer refutes that speculation.

His prayer is not of the form "Our Father in Heaven thank you that the saints already reign with Christ on Earth as it is in heaven"

This is irrefutable - all readers can see this point in Matt 6.

Christ tells His followers that just as He was persecuted and killed - so also will they be persecuted and killed.
John 16:1-4 and those who do it - will think they are serving God in killing the followers of Christ. Hint: the dark ages.

Matt 16 does not say "you already reign with Christ". And it also does not say Satan is stopped being the "god of this world". Rather 2 Cor 4:4 affirms that point.

Is 66 is a great example of a prophecy of a future event

Is 66:23 in the NEW Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship".
Not happening today.
Will not happen on Earth until the creation of the New Earth in Rev 21 following the literal millennium

Hi Bob,

May I point out that the word `kingdom` is better translated as `rule.` You see God made the world and all that is in it and NEVER gave it away. (Ps. 24: 1) It is the rulership that He is addressing.

When it says, `Thy kingdom come...` It is referring to the Lord`s rulership over the nations.

And when the Lord said `His kingdom was not of this world,` that refers to His rulership. No one on earth gave Him His authority and power, but the Father.

`...He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power...` (1 Cor. 15: 24)

FredVB · Mar 26, 2023

Marilyn C said:
`But you, brethren, are NOT in darkness so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. `(1 Thess. 5: 4)

`...exhorting one another, and so much the MORE as you SEE the Day approaching. ` (Heb. 10: 25)

I understand these verses and do not disagree with them. I say those who just post verses in response are not clear as they seem to assume others have the same understanding from those verses. Were you showing agreement with what I posted, or do you disagree?

Marilyn C said:
May I point out that the word `kingdom` is better translated as `rule.` You see God made the world and all that is in it and NEVER gave it away. (Ps. 24: 1) It is the rulership that He is addressing.

When it says, `Thy kingdom come...` It is referring to the Lord`s rulership over the nations.

And when the Lord said `His kingdom was not of this world,` that refers to His rulership. No one on earth gave Him His authority and power, but the Father.

`...He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power...` (1 Cor. 15: 24)

"Your kingdom come" that we who are believers are to pray has more meaning than some, or many, believers think of. The phrase with it is "your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven," which is what the kingdom is about. It really is about the full will of God. How many believers are really seeking the full will of God? I know, they might say they do. But really, many still want to choose things serving themselves which are not from God's perfect will for us. That many come to suffer with cancers, heart attacks, and strokes is an example of results from how they choose for themselves apart from God's perfect will.

FredVB · Mar 27, 2023

BobRyan said:
I already stated that the Kingdom of heaven includes those in heaven - and also those on Earth who are God's people.

But the Lord's prayer "thy Kingdom COME, Thy will be done on EARTH as it IS in HEAVEN" is not talking about history - it is making a request for God's kingdom to come to Earth.

Satan is the god of this world - 2 Cor 4:4. But this world is not the kingdom of heaven.

"My kingdom is NOT of this world else would my servants fight that I should not be taken captive" shoots the entire "Kingdom on Earth" idea because no Jews, and no disciples were at war with Rome fighting to rescue Christ. When Peter tries that idea out - Jesus said He could call 12 legions of Angels if needed - but this is the hour of darkness and He was to be taken.

falling stars - fall from the sky - not from Israel, -- The text is literal.

(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

a. The sun- the literal sun as it appears in the sky
b. appeared black - the real literal color black
c. The moon - the real literal moon
d. became as blood - the real color of blood - literally as it appeared in the sky

(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

a. the stars of heaven (real literal shooting stars)
b. fell to earth (real literal falling to real literal earth)

(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places
a. Heavens departed as a scroll - the real literal atmosphere/sky
b. rolled up (parted) as would a scroll
c. every mountain - real literal mountains
d. Island - real literal islands
e. Were moved - real literal moving

Not my premise.

My premise is that we notice the obvious - the Lord's prayer makes a request "Thy kingdom come" (so then a future event) , "Thy will be done" a future event since obviously 2 Cor 4:4 satan is "the god of this world".

This much is irrefutable.

Not true. Jerusalem is a mess.
God's kingdom is yet to come.

This world is a mess.

This is irrefutable.

Jesus' prayer refutes that speculation.

His prayer is not of the form "Our Father in Heaven thank you that the saints already reign with Christ on Earth as it is in heaven"

This is irrefutable - all readers can see this point in Matt 6.

Christ tells His followers that just as He was persecuted and killed - so also will they be persecuted and killed.
John 16:1-4 and those who do it - will think they are serving God in killing the followers of Christ. Hint: the dark ages.

Matt 16 does not say "you already reign with Christ". And it also does not say Satan is stopped being the "god of this world". Rather 2 Cor 4:4 affirms that point.

Is 66 is a great example of a prophecy of a future event

Is 66:23 in the NEW Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship".
Not happening today.
Will not happen on Earth until the creation of the New Earth in Rev 21 following the literal millennium

As was said, we would pray for God's kingdom to come with God's will on earth as it is in Heaven, so God's kingdom is where those who do so conform to God's will, and that will prevail in the coming time when Christ comes again and rules on earth. That is what should be meant in prayer with even desiring it.

This world is not that kingdom, though that kingdom will come to this world with Christ returning.

There are literal things in the book of Revelation while that book is full of symbolic terms. So things in the sky and things of physical reality on the earth such as trees and the seas as well are literal, while expressions that do not have literal meanings in physical reality have symbolic meaning of reality still, such as Mystery Babylon not being just literal Babylon, but having a real meaning of something much greater. And I am claiming I now know what it is. The sky can't literally roll up like a scroll, but the sun can appear darker and will, the moon can appear more red than ever before and will, many falling stars will come down to this earth, and it seems that there will be mountains that would really move, meaning tremendous geological activity would happen all at once.

All this world is a mess, God is offended with it and the destructiveness to God's creation, and God's kingdom coming which is after judgment in this world on the unrepentant in it is with Christ's return with him ruling here on earth then, with those here then involved with the restoration to this world under Christ's authority here.

Sabbath according to Yahweh's will then will continue on.

anetazo · Apr 1, 2023

I don't believe in the rapture theory. Ezekiel chapter 13, The Lord is against the rapture theory. I respect other people's beliefs. Back in the 1960s. My dad, and brothers stopped going to a particular church. The reason was. The pastor was compromised. He had to teach from monthly quarterly packet each month. Or he would lose his salary, position, and pension. My self, I study sound doctrine. I won't compromise my values and beliefs.

FredVB · Jul 9, 2023

Believing in the rapture does not give justified basis to disregard responsibilities we have in this world. Whenever Mystery Babylon will collapse and fall, it will be from the unsustainable ways of all in it with living in this world, with the exploitation, materialism, and wickedness in ungodliness that God's people should not stay with, while they should have responsibilities being met with sustainable ways in good stewardship to this earth living with what God gave for people after the fall, while they get out from Mystery Babylon to be in groups of believers together for that, and don't wait longer to do so while just remaining with Mystery Babylon. That is where you are, now.

notworthconsideration · Jul 9, 2023

John Helpher said:
Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.

The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.

I’ll address

John Helpher said:
Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.

The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.

About 20+ yrs ago, I was preparing an apologetic analysis of the the rapture doctrine- long story, short- I couldn’t even prove it when I believed it and taught it for years. I was shocked! What I found disturbed me. It took years for me to admit to what I found, (but only because I didn’t know what to do with the info-)

Changing your mind about prophecy

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Matt 24​

Question: What causes a "falling star"?​

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