Question about praying to Mary

Ceallaigh · Feb 17, 2023

Bob Crowley said:
When Mary and the saints got to heaven, and received God's imprimatur, God would have given them powers way over and beyond those that they had on earth. We have no idea what goes on up there.

Secondly Mary and the Saints don't directly answer prayer - they pass them on to God. He's the one who answers them.

The final line of the Rosary for example, "... pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death". We're asking Mary to pray for us. I presume you ask your friends to pray for you from time to time?

Since they've proven themselves to be God's friends, God is more prepared to listen to them just as you would be more prepared to listen to someone whom you know and trust compared to someone you don't know well, and who has not proven themselves to you.

Christ's first miracle took place at the request of Mary, His Mother - the wine at the wedding of Cana. He was the Son of God, and He listened to HIs earthly mother.

If you make a point about how He seemed to rebuke her, in actual fact He was making it clear she was setting him on the road to Calvary by her request. From that time on, the die was cast.

At her request.

And just as He heeded her request then, so God heeds her requests now.

As my old Protestant pastor said to me once "They're (Mary and the saints) doing something up there".

Would you say that people are more comfortable asking Mary to intercede for them, than they are going directly to God Himself in prayer?

Valletta · Feb 17, 2023

MMXX said:
Looks like an idol and appears to be treated as such, but isn't despite appearances to the contrary.

A statue is not the same as an idol no matter what you were taught.

Valletta · Feb 17, 2023

MMXX said:
I get the idea people who do this are more comfortable praying to Mary or whoever than they are praying directly to God.

Are you more comfortable praying to God or asking a friend to pray for you? Should you be judged on your answer?

Valletta · Feb 18, 2023

MMXX said:
Would you say that people are more comfortable asking Mary to intercede for them, than they are going directly to God Himself in prayer?

Which commandment are you most comfortable with? You see, it's not about comfort. The Word of God says we are to pray for one another. The Word of God also shows us that the mother of the king in the Davidic kingdom makes requests of the king, thus it should be no surprise that the mother of God gets a lot of prayer requests. ALL of the Word of God is important, not just what you are taught to focus on. Unfortunately a number of practices of the early Christians have been abandoned coinciding with more and more religious denominations. Many people put crosses on their churches and wear crosses, Catholics do not judge them and say they make a false idol of the cross and worship two sticks of wood. Nor do we condemn the Jews for making two cherubim as God commanded. I think it is much better to spend time in prayer than concerning oneself about how others pray.

boughtwithaprice · Feb 20, 2023

From a Sermon by Sophronius, patriarch of Jerusalem from 634-638. He staunchly opposed monoenergism, which claimed that Christ has only one nature. Although unsuccessful in condemning monenergism during his reign as patriarch of Jerusalem, both monoenergism (Christ with one nature) and Monothelitism (Christ with one will) were condemned as heresy at the Council of Constantinople in 680-681. The orthodox view is that Christ has two natures and two wills, both fully human and fully divine, and the teaching is Dyophysitism or two substances. This is known as the hypostatic union, where human and divine nature were joined in the womb of the Virgin Mary. Sophronius was very interested in the role that Mary played in our salvation. Let us read what he had to say:

Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you. What joy could surpass this, O Virgin Mother? What grace can excel that which God has granted to you alone? What could be imagined more dazzling or more delightful? Before the miracle we witness in you, all else pales; all else is inferior when compared with the grace you have been given. All else, even what is most desirable, must take second place and enjoy a lessor importance.

The Lord is with you. Who would dare challenge you? You are God's mother; who would not immediately defer to you and be glad to accord you a greater primacy and honour? For this reason, when I look upon the privilege you have above all creatures, I extol you with the highest praise: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you. On your account joy has not only graced men, but it is also granted to the powers of heaven.

Truly, you are blessed among women. For you have changed Eve's curse into a blessing; and Adam, who hitherto lay under a curse, has been blessed because of you.

Truly, you are blessed among women. Through you the Father's blessing has shone forth on mankind, setting them free of their ancient curse.

Truly, you are blessed among women, because through you your forebears have found salvation. For you were to give birth to the Saviour who was to win them salvation.

Truly, you are blessed among women, for without seed you have borne, as your fruit, him who bestows blessings on the whole world and redeems it from that curse that made it sprout thorns.

Truly, you are blessed among women, because though a woman by nature, you will become, in reality, God's mother. If he whom you are to bear is truly God made flesh, then rightly do we call you God's mother. For you have truly given birth to God.

Enclosed within your womb is God Himself. He makes his abode in you and comes forth from you like a bridegroom, winning joy for all and bestowing God's light on all.

You, O Virgin, are like a clear and shining sky, in which God has set his tent. From you he comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber. Like a giant running his course, he will run the course of his life which will bring salvation for all who will ever live, and extending from the highest heavens to the end of them, it will fill all things with divine warmth and with life-giving brightness.

This is an amazing sermon, because we know of the hypostatic union. Christ is both fully human and fully divine. We do not honor His divinity by disparaging or ignoring His humanity, and His humanity came through Mary alone, by the sovereign election of God Himself. Who could witness this and not give her the greatest honor among Christians, yea even among ALL the creatures of God? Unlike Eve, who chose creation over the Creator, and Satan who chose pride over divine humility, Mary humbled herself, chose God and is exalted over all of creation. "Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to your word" Luke 1:38

Should we not ask her to pray for us? She is the mother of Christ, which makes her the mother of all Christians. You can do what you want, I am going to ask my Mother for help, and I will humble myself before God as a little child, per His command. Matthew 18:3-4

Zachm531 · Mar 19, 2023

MMXX said:
Question to Catholics: wouldn't Mary have to be omniscient to hear and process hundreds of prayers being prayed to her in a steady stream every minute 24/7?

Note: input from former or non-Catholics is welcome.

No, read my article

The Biblical Basis For The Doctrine Of “intercession Of The Saints”

This document is an examination of the doctrine of communion of saints/intercession of saints through the lens of the Scriptures primarily with some sources from ancient Judaism and Church history. There seems to be a few main questions that need...

www.christianforums.com

Ceallaigh · Mar 19, 2023

Zachm531 said:
No, read my article

The Biblical Basis For The Doctrine Of “intercession Of The Saints”

This document is an examination of the doctrine of communion of saints/intercession of saints through the lens of the Scriptures primarily with some sources from ancient Judaism and Church history. There seems to be a few main questions that need...

www.christianforums.com

That looks like a ton of dogma without any direct canonical scripture to back it up. There's nowhere in all of scripture where it says to pray to anyone other than YHWH the Father.

concretecamper · Mar 19, 2023

MMXX said:
"I don't know" is a perfectly fine answer. Answering a question with a series of questions, not so much. Making them personally challenging questions, even less so.

Could you perhaps explain it in plain English?

Also how does a book that's in the Old Testament of the Catholic and Orthodox Bible, explain anything regarding Mary and Christian saints?

I didn't see such in reading the text:

14 Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God.

15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:

16 Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel.

17 Thus being exhorted with the words of Judas, which were very good, and proper to stir up the courage, and strengthen the hearts of the young men, they resolved to fight, and to set upon them manfully: that valour might decide the matter, because the holy city and the temple were in danger. 2 Maccabees 15:14-17 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition).

Your posts remind me of this quote from Stuart Chase.

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."

Ceallaigh · Mar 19, 2023

concretecamper said:
Your posts remind me of this quote from Stuart Chase.

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."

"Common sense is what tells us the earth is flat." - Stuart Chase.

prodromos · Mar 19, 2023

MMXX said:
"Common sense is what tells us the earth is flat." - Stuart Chase.

How come it tells me that the earth is round then?

Ceallaigh · Mar 19, 2023

prodromos said:
How come it tells me that the earth is round then?

It's a matter of believing in something that has no real evidence to support it.

The Liturgist · Mar 19, 2023

Maria Billingsley said:
Note: What they get wrong is anyone and everyone who is in the Body of Christ is considered a saint. So Revelation is metaphorically depicting prayers without intercession .

Actually no, this is a common misunderstanding. Yes, everyone in the Body of Christ is considered a saint, so that is correct, however, those who have been glorified (or canonized, in Roman Catholic parlance) as holy after death and are venerated are those who we have substantial reason to believe obtained salvation and are in Heaven, and will enter the World to Come. It is also acknowledged that the identity of the majority of saints is unknown to the Church, which is why both the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and also the Anglicans, celebrate All Saints Day (the Western Churches on Nov. 1st, the Eastern churches on the first Sunday after Pentecost, because Pentecost Sunday in the Eastern churches serves the function of both Pentecost Sunday in the Western churches and Trinity Sunday, and All Saints Day continues the theme of New Life which is stressed on Pentecost Sunday, thus most Eastern Orthodox churches keep up their green vestments on All Saints Day (the only days where these are definitely used by most Eastern Orthodox churches are Palm Sunday and Pentecost Sunday, but the rubrics allow for them to be used on other occasions; gold, not green, however, is the default liturgical color.

The Liturgist · Mar 19, 2023

MMXX said:
"I don't know" is a perfectly fine answer. Answering a question with a series of questions, not so much. Making them personally challenging questions, even less so.

Could you perhaps explain it in plain English?

I did not see the questions as personally challenging in the slightest. I could provide the correct answers to the questions he posed, if desired.

Also how does a book that's in the Old Testament of the Catholic and Orthodox Bible, explain anything regarding Mary and Christian saints?

Because it depicts the saints intervening to save Israel (the Church, in Orthodox doctrine, did not begin at Pentecost, but has always existed, and thus the holy prophets of Israel are saints in the Orthodox church, indeed St. Elias (Elijah) is one of the most venerated saints in Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy.

I didn't see such in reading the text:

14 Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God.

15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:

16 Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel.

17 Thus being exhorted with the words of Judas, which were very good, and proper to stir up the courage, and strengthen the hearts of the young men, they resolved to fight, and to set upon them manfully: that valour might decide the matter, because the holy city and the temple were in danger. 2 Maccabees 15:14-17 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition).

What I think you are missing: both St. Onias the Priest, and the Holy Prophet Jeremiah had reposed in the Lord, in the case of St. Jeremiah, more than 400 years before the events described in 2 Maccabees.

By the way, you can find that material in the KJV, the NRSV, and several other Bible editions. Indeed one of my frustrations with the NIV is that despite its elegant prose (I am of course speaking of the first and second edition; the third edition has serious problems, although not as bad as those of NRSVue), it is one of the few major translations which does not include the deuterocanonical books.

Ceallaigh · Mar 19, 2023

The Liturgist said:
I did not see the questions as personally challenging in the slightest. I could provide the correct answers to the questions he posed, if desired.

Because it depicts the saints intervening to save Israel (the Church, in Orthodox doctrine, did not begin at Pentecost, but has always existed, and thus the holy prophets of Israel are saints in the Orthodox church, indeed St. Elias (Elijah) is one of the most venerated saints in Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy.

What I think you are missing: both St. Onias the Priest, and the Holy Prophet Jeremiah had reposed in the Lord, in the case of St. Jeremiah, more than 400 years before the events described in 2 Maccabees.

By the way, you can find that material in the KJV, the NRSV, and several other Bible editions. Indeed one of my frustrations with the NIV is that despite its elegant prose (I am of course speaking of the first and second edition; the third edition has serious problems, although not as bad as those of NRSVue), it is one of the few major translations which does not include the deuterocanonical books.

Show me one verse in all of canonical scripture where it says to pray to anyone besides YHWH the Father.

Show me something clear and concise, that's not mostly based on conjecture and apocrypha.

Ceallaigh · Mar 19, 2023

God Himself said:

“This, then, is how you should pray:

Our Father..."

Nowhere are we ever instructed to pray to the spirits of people who died.

I think that probably people came up with the idea because they became uncomfortable with, or afraid to go directly to Abba Father in prayer.

The Liturgist · Mar 20, 2023

MMXX said:
Show me one verse in all of canonical scripture where it says to pray to anyone besides YHWH the Father.

Now hang on just a minute - who says there is anything wrong with addressing prayers to God the Son or God the Holy Spirit?

We believe in one God in three persons, each of whom is fully divine and coequal. If you are suggesting that prayers addressed to Jesus are wrong, for example, the prayer “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner,” this would be dramatically more objectionable than disagreeing with the intercession of the saints. It would seem to me to be a crypto-Arian, crypto-Pnuematomacchian position.

Indeed the problems include, but are not limited to:

1. YHWH is a name proper to God, not only to the person of the Father. Indeed Jesus Christ identifies Himself with this name when he says “Before Abraham was, I AM.” YHWH translated means “I AM THAT I AM”, and is how God identified Himself to Moses at the Burning Bush, but in that instance, we do not know which specific person Moses was speaking with (although based on what happened on Pentecost in the Cenacle, it seems probable the Holy Spirit was responsible for the burning bush, especially since it was not damaged, and is still alive to this day in the courtyard of the St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai.

2. No canonical Scripture could be interpreted as prohibiting prayer to any person of the Trinity.

3. On the contrary, appeals to our Lord in His incarnation, made during His ministry, are absolutely valid prayers, since Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man, and is coeternal, consubstantial and coequal with the Father (and also consubstantial with us, this hypostatic union, which is the essential theology of the Council of Ephesus in 435 AD and the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD, and even more essential to our salvation, for we are saved by the fact that in Jesus Christ, as St. Athanasius wrote in On The Incarnation, God became Man so that Man could become god” which is to say becoming by grace what Christ is by nature: resurrected, immortal and receiving eternal life.

4. Prayer is not worship, but Jesus Christ is to be worshipped, so to say we worship Him while only praying to His Father makes no sense at all.

5. Since the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God, the First Commandment applies to all three persons. Furthermore, in some of the instances where Moses met God in person, it is self evident he was interacting with Christ, since God the Father is not incarnate, and according to Jesus Christ himself, no one has seen him at any time, except through the revelation of Him in the person of the Son, who is the incarnate Word of God.

6. Since the Son and Holy Spirit are God, praying to God without specifying the divine Person is a prayer to all three Persons, and so whether you realize it or not, you are excluding as illegitimate every prayer in the Bible except for the Lord’s Prayer, which alone is addressed specifically to God the Father.

Show me something clear and concise, that's not mostly based on conjecture and apocrypha.

Well firstly, 2 Maccabees is not apocrypha. I would not dream of quoting scripture not recognized as canon by all of the ancient apostolic churches.

Secondly, I don’t think this issue is of importance given that you have objections with people praying to God in the person of Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit, or indeed to the Trinity as a whole.

I don’t think any Christians I know, even my friends such as @MarkRohfrietsch who do not believe in intercessory prayers to the saints, for example, asking the Theotokos to intercede for us, would say that praying to God in any or all of His persons is wrong, since all three are God.

The Liturgist · Mar 20, 2023

MMXX said:
I think that probably people came up with the idea because they became uncomfortable with, or afraid to go directly to Abba Father in prayer.

That’s not the case at all, since every Church that has intercessory prayers to the saints also makes extensive use of the Lord’s Prayer. Indeed the Rosary in its simplest form is a series of ten Hail Marys followed by an Our Father.

Ceallaigh · Mar 20, 2023

The Liturgist said:
Now hang on just a minute - who says there is anything wrong with addressing prayers to God the Son or God the Holy Spirit?

We believe in one God in three persons, each of whom is fully divine and coequal. If you are suggesting that prayers addressed to Jesus are wrong, for example, the prayer “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner,” this would be dramatically more objectionable than disagreeing with the intercession of the saints. It would seem to me to be a crypto-Arian, crypto-Pnuematomacchian position.

Indeed the problems include, but are not limited to:

1. YHWH is a name proper to God, not only to the person of the Father. Indeed Jesus Christ identifies Himself with this name when he says “Before Abraham was, I AM.” YHWH translated means “I AM THAT I AM”, and is how God identified Himself to Moses at the Burning Bush, but in that instance, we do not know which specific person Moses was speaking with (although based on what happened on Pentecost in the Cenacle, it seems probable the Holy Spirit was responsible for the burning bush, especially since it was not damaged, and is still alive to this day in the courtyard of the St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai.

2. No canonical Scripture could be interpreted as prohibiting prayer to any person of the Trinity.

3. On the contrary, appeals to our Lord in His incarnation, made during His ministry, are absolutely valid prayers, since Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man, and is coeternal, consubstantial and coequal with the Father (and also consubstantial with us, this hypostatic union, which is the essential theology of the Council of Ephesus in 435 AD and the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD, and even more essential to our salvation, for we are saved by the fact that in Jesus Christ, as St. Athanasius wrote in On The Incarnation, God became Man so that Man could become god” which is to say becoming by grace what Christ is by nature: resurrected, immortal and receiving eternal life.

4. Prayer is not worship, but Jesus Christ is to be worshipped, so to say we worship Him while only praying to His Father makes no sense at all.

5. Since the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God, the First Commandment applies to all three persons. Furthermore, in some of the instances where Moses met God in person, it is self evident he was interacting with Christ, since God the Father is not incarnate, and according to Jesus Christ himself, no one has seen him at any time, except through the revelation of Him in the person of the Son, who is the incarnate Word of God.

6. Since the Son and Holy Spirit are God, praying to God without specifying the divine Person is a prayer to all three Persons, and so whether you realize it or not, you are excluding as illegitimate every prayer in the Bible except for the Lord’s Prayer, which alone is addressed specifically to God the Father.

In other words there's no example or instruction of prayer to anyone else other than to our Father. We're told that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us through wordless groans. And Jesus says whatever you ask in His name the Father will give you.

That's the scriptural role of the Trinity in prayer.

There's no need to complicate it or add to it.

The Liturgist said:
Well firstly, 2 Maccabees is not apocrypha. I would not dream of quoting scripture not recognized as canon by all of the ancient apostolic churches.

Sorry, deuterocanonical.

The Liturgist said:
Secondly, I don’t think this issue is of importance given that you have objections with people praying to God in the person of Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit, or indeed to the Trinity as a whole.

The main focus is the issue of praying to the spirits of the dead.

The Liturgist said:
I don’t think any Christians I know, even my friends such as @MarkRohfrietsch who do not believe in intercessory prayers to the saints, for example, asking the Theotokos to intercede for us, would say that praying to God in any or all of His persons is wrong, since all three are God.

That's anecdotal.
Where in Canonical Scripture are we ever in any way whatsoever instructed to pray to the spirits of the dead? I'm just asking for one solid verse please.

Ceallaigh · Mar 20, 2023

The Liturgist said:
That’s not the case at all, since every Church that has intercessory prayers to the saints also makes extensive use of the Lord’s Prayer. Indeed the Rosary in its simplest form is a series of ten Hail Marys followed by an Our Father.

How about just simply going to our Abba Father in prayer, like Jesus did?

The Liturgist · Mar 20, 2023

MMXX said:
In other words there's no example or instruction of prayer to anyone else other than to our Father. We're told that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us through wordless groans. And Jesus says whatever you ask in His name the Father will give you.

On the contrary, literally every prayer in the Holy Bible other than the Lord’s Prayer is not specifically addressed to the Father. The knowledge of God the Father was introduced by Jesus Christ. Indeed to this day Jews do not pray to God as Father, but rather address God as King of the Universe (which is also fine).

That's the scriptural role of the Trinity in prayer.

There's no need to complicate it or add to it.

Christians have been praying to Jesus Christ since literally the first century; we have prayers addressed to Him from the second, third and fourth centuries, indeed, even an entire Eucharistic Liturgy (the fourth century Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian).

There is nothing wrong with praying to the Father, obviously, but likewise there is nothing wrong with praying to the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Speaking of which, I know many Protestants and other Christians, including myself, who will extemporaneously pray to Jesus Christ, in His name.

My problem is that your desire to avoid “complicating” prayer implies that it is wrong to pray to other persons of the Trinity, which is completely wrong, and also it compromises the doctrine of the coequality of the Divine Persons. If we say only the Father hears prayers, we diminish the power and importance of the Son and the Holy Ghost.

This is contrary to the Nicene Christian faith, which is that we believe in One God, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Sorry, deuterocanonical.

In my church 2 Maccabees is Protocanonical. I would also note that the Orthodox lack the concept of a deuterocanon.

The main focus is the issue of praying to the spirits of the dead.

That's anecdotal.
Where in Canonical Scripture are we ever in any way whatsoever instructed to pray to the spirits of the dead? I'm just asking for one solid verse please.

We don’t pray to the spirits of the dead. The saints whose intercession we seek are those Christians whose membership in the Church Triumphant has been confirmed. They are alive in Heaven and will be, or in some cases already are, resurrected in the Body (for example, St. Elijah, St. Moses and the Blessed Virgin Mary, who were taken up bodily, in the case of St. Elijah without experiencing death).

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