Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

Ceallaigh · Mar 18, 2023

Der Alte said:
One verse in the Bible cannot contradict, or be contradicted by, any other verse in the Bible. Once again Plz show me one vs. in addition to Matt 25:45, two or more would be better, where the unrighteous who have lived a life of sin, are saved by ministering to one needy person? Please see Matthew 7:21-23.

What does Jesus mean then when he says doing whatever for one person makes you a righteous sheep that will go onto eternal life?

Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. (Matthew 25:40) Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Matthew 25:46).

Der Alte · Mar 18, 2023

MMXX said:
What does Jesus mean then when he says doing whatever for one person makes you a righteous sheep that will go onto eternal life?
Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. (Matthew 25:40) Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Matthew 25:46).

That vs. cannot contradict any other vs/vss. What happens to those on the left? Show me at least one other vs., 2 or more would be better, where an unrighteous person, living in sin, will be saved by ministering to one or more needy persons? tick tock. See Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28.

Butch5 · Mar 18, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
My posts were to the point that the logic and assumptions were fallacious. I was not posting my opinion concerning the position proffered.

You were asserting that I was giving my opinion. However, just a little bit of research would show it's not opinion. By calling it my opinion you seek to discredit what I said. Again, a little research would show otherwise. Regarding the Logic, I can guarantee you it is not fallacious. Unlike many, I scour my thoughts for fallacies. You won't find them in my posts.

Butch5 · Mar 18, 2023

Der Alte said:
Show me yours first then I will show you mine. You are the one that made the claim that grammar requires aion and aionios must have the same meaning. tick tock.

As usual you continue to deflect.

Butch5 · Mar 18, 2023

Der Alte said:
Where did the word "over" come from? You can bug out if you want to but I will continue to point out errors in your posts.

This is getting mind numbing. You said an adjective can't end. Over is an adjective that means to end.

Ceallaigh · Mar 18, 2023

Der Alte said:
That vs. cannot contradict any other vs/vss. What happens to those on the left? Show me at least one other vs., 2 or more would be better, where an unrighteous person, living in sin, will be saved by ministering to one or more needy persons? tick tock. See Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28.

Then what does Jesus mean when he says doing whatever for one person makes you a righteous sheep that will go onto eternal life?

Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. (Matthew 25:40) Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Matthew 25:46)?

If you're stumped and can not give a direct answer, that's okay.

Butch5 · Mar 18, 2023

Der Alte said:
The Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich [BDAG] Greek lexicon represents 120-160 years of combined scholarship. The full definition of aionios. Note the 80+ historical sources the scholars consulted in deteremining the meaning of aionios.

αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 a.d.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).

① pert. to a long period of time, long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10).

② pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον; IBM 894, 2 αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; SibOr Fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).

③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατοςB 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.[1]

[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 33.

How many time does it have to be repeated? It doesn't matter. I can give you hundreds of years of Scientific scholarship explaining how the Big Bang theory works, that doesn't mean it's correct?

It's mind numbing to see someone who doesn't even believe their own eyes.

Matthew 13:40–41 (LEB): 40 Thus just as the darnel is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age.

There you have it right before you eyes. It comes from the Son of God. Actually, it comes from God. Jesus said the words He spoke were the Father's. But you still don't believe it. You'd rather believe the words of some guys you know absolutely nothing about. When your eyes show you clearly, you still won't believe what you are seeing.

Der Alte · Mar 19, 2023

Butch5 said:
This is getting mind numbing. You said an adjective can't end. Over is an adjective that means to end.

Incorrecto amigo, When used to mean "end" it becomes a "noun." Folks with a middle school knowledge of English grammar know that. "Over" when used to mean "above" is a "preposition." When used to indicate "to end" "over" is a noun. Look in any English grammar. Not only is knowledge of Greek grammar missing so is English grammar.

Der Alte · Mar 19, 2023

Butch5 said:
How many time does it have to be repeated? It doesn't matter. I can give you hundreds of years of Scientific scholarship explaining how the Big Bang theory works, that doesn't mean it's correct?
It's mind numbing to see someone who doesn't even believe their own eyes.
Matthew 13:40–41 (LEB): 40 Thus just as the darnel is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
There you have it right before you eyes. It comes from the Son of God. Actually, it comes from God. Jesus said the words He spoke were the Father's. But you still don't believe it. You'd rather believe the words of some guys you know absolutely nothing about. When your eyes show you clearly, you still won't believe what you are seeing.

The meaning of a word is NOT determined by a few usages. Jesus, Himself, said more than once that "aionios zoe," correctly translated "eternal life" means "shall not perish." Also, Paul, Peter and John defined "aionios" as "eternal."
The end of the "Aion." "Aion" is NOT not "aionios" and "aionios" is NOT "aion."

MMXX said:
Then what does Jesus mean when he says doing whatever for one person makes you a righteous sheep that will go onto eternal life?
Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. (Matthew 25:40) Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Matthew 25:46)?
If you're stumped and can not give a direct answer, that's okay.

You are the one arguing about it. You tell me. Show me 2 or more verses which say that the unrighteous who live in sin only have to help one person one time and they will be saved.

Der Alte · Mar 19, 2023

Butch5 said:
How many time does it have to be repeated? It doesn't matter. I can give you hundreds of years of Scientific scholarship explaining how the Big Bang theory works, that doesn't mean it's correct?
It's mind numbing to see someone who doesn't even believe their own eyes.
Matthew 13:40–41 (LEB): 40 Thus just as the darnel is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
There you have it right before you eyes. It comes from the Son of God. Actually, it comes from God. Jesus said the words He spoke were the Father's. But you still don't believe it. You'd rather believe the words of some guys you know absolutely nothing about. When your eyes show you clearly, you still won't believe what you are seeing.

What does not matter is your unsupported opinion. Quote me some Greek grammar or go take a break. The meaning of a word is NOT determined by a few usages. Jesus, Himself, said more than once that "aionios zoe," correctly translated "eternal life" means "shall not perish." Also, Paul, Peter and John defined "aionios" as "eternal."
The end of the "Aion." "Aion" is NOT not "aionios" and "aionios" is NOT "aion."

Butch5 · Mar 19, 2023

Der Alte said:
Incorrecto amigo, When used to mean "end" it becomes a "noun." Folks with a middle school knowledge of English grammar know that. "Over" when used to mean "above" is a "preposition." When used to indicate "to end" "over" is a noun. Look in any English grammar. Not only is knowledge of Greek grammar missing so is English grammar.

You really should quit while you're behind. Those same middle achoolers could easily do a simple Google search before embarrassing themselves in public.

Over

Over - English Grammar Today - a reference to written and spoken English grammar and usage - Cambridge Dictionary

dictionary.cambridge.org

Notice there is no noun listing. But, enough of this wasting time.

Butch5 · Mar 19, 2023

Der Alte said:
What does not matter is your unsupported opinion. Quote me some Greek grammar or go take a break. The meaning of a word is NOT determined by a few usages. Jesus, Himself, said more than once that "aionios zoe," correctly translated "eternal life" means "shall not perish." Also, Paul, Peter and John defined "aionios" as "eternal."
The end of the "Aion." "Aion" is NOT not "aionios" and "aionios" is NOT "aion."

I've asked you before to show me where they say the definition of aionios is eternal.
You haven't done it. As far as I know, they didnt speak English. This shows the flaw in your reasoning. All this is, is trying to give a false authority to your claim. Jesus didn't define aionios in the Scriptures. You're drawing inferences from passages of Scripture and then trying to claim this is what Jesus said, It's not. They're just inferences you've drawn. If you want to say Jesus said something, then quote those words from Scriputre.

Since they use aion of things that end, we can see that you don't understand what the word means. This is clear by your continued dismissal of the uses that show it ends. Rather than trying to reconcile those passages you've simply dismissed them. This is not only the fallacy of Cherry Picking, but it's also disingenuous. It's simply a design to push propaganda rather than openly and honestly seeking to reconcile Scripture

Ceallaigh · Mar 19, 2023

Der Alte said:
You are the one arguing about it. You tell me. Show me 2 or more verses which say that the unrighteous who live in sin only have to help one person one time and they will be saved.

You repeatedly use a verse from a parable you can't explain. The goats going away to eternal punishment because they didn't help anyone, you love that part and stand by it. But the sheep going away to eternal life, because they helped someone, you keep insisting that isn't true, that it doesn't happen that way.

Ceallaigh · Mar 19, 2023

Butch5 said:
I've asked you before to show me where they say the definition of aionios is eternal.
You haven't done it. As far as I know, they didnt speak English. This shows the flaw in your reasoning. All this is, is trying to give a false authority to your claim. Jesus didn't define aionios in the Scriptures. You're drawing inferences from passages of Scripture and then trying to claim this is what Jesus said, It's not. They're just inferences you've drawn. If you want to say Jesus said something, then quote those words from Scriputre.

Since they use aion of things that end, we can see that you don't understand what the word means. This is clear by your continued dismissal of the uses that show it ends. Rather than trying to reconcile those passages you've simply dismissed them. This is not only the fallacy of Cherry Picking, but it's also disingenuous. It's simply a design to push propaganda rather than openly and honestly seeking to reconcile Scripture

His main proof text for aionios truly meaning eternal, is from a parable he only accepts half of as true.

Then they will go away to eternal punishment [because they didn't help someone]: True

but the righteous to eternal life [because they helped someone]: False

That's the apex of cherry picking.

Butch5 · Mar 19, 2023

MMXX said:
His main proof text for aionios truly meaning eternal, is from a parable he only accepts half of as true.

Then they will go away to eternal punishment [because they didn't help someone]: True

but the righteous to eternal life [because they helped someone]: False

That's the apex of cherry picking.

Yeah, we've been round and round on this before. It's pretty pointless.

Der Alte · Mar 19, 2023

MMXX said:
You repeatedly use a verse from a parable you can't explain. The goats going away to eternal punishment because they didn't help anyone, you love that part and stand by it. But the sheep going away to eternal life, because they helped someone, you keep insisting that isn't true, that it doesn't happen that way.

Ahhh! I see the problem. In Matt 25 there ain't no actual goats of sheep. A parable requires a comparison of the unknown/not understood with that which is known/understood. Eg. "This is like unto that." Matt 25:31-46 is more an analogy than a parable.

Der Alte · Mar 19, 2023

Butch5 said:
I've asked you before to show me where they say the definition of aionios is eternal.
You haven't done it. As far as I know, they didnt speak English. This shows the flaw in your reasoning. All this is, is trying to give a false authority to your claim. Jesus didn't define aionios in the Scriptures. You're drawing inferences from passages of Scripture and then trying to claim this is what Jesus said, It's not. They're just inferences you've drawn. If you want to say Jesus said something, then quote those words from Scriputre.

Since they use aion of things that end, we can see that you don't understand what the word means. This is clear by your continued dismissal of the uses that show it ends. Rather than trying to reconcile those passages you've simply dismissed them. This is not only the fallacy of Cherry Picking, but it's also disingenuous. It's simply a design to push propaganda rather than openly and honestly seeking to reconcile Scripture

There is the problem I never said that anyone in the N.T. "said aionio means eternal." I said in 20+ verses the writer/speaker defines or describes "aionios" as "eternal/everlasting/for ever." Aion [noun] is NOT aionios [adjective] and aionios is NOT aion. Here is my example of the same grammatical conclusion. The Greek word "micron" is the opposite of large/big. That is describing/defining the word "micron" without actually saying the words "define" or "describe." Anyone reading that would know the correct meaning of "micron."
Here is the grammatical explanation.

John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life [zoe].
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionos] life [zoe].
John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [aionios] life; [zoe] and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The word under discussion is the adjective "aionios" NOT the noun "aion." Three times Jesus said that "aionios zoe" means a life that does NOT perish. In John 10:28 Jesus doubled down by also saying that "aionios zoe" means that "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." That "aionios zoe" ain't going to end.

Ceallaigh · Mar 19, 2023

Der Alte said:
Ahhh! I see the problem. In Matt 25 there ain't no actual goats of sheep. A parable requires a comparison of the unknown/not understood with that which is known/understood. Eg. "This is like unto that." Matt 25:31-46 is more an analogy than a parable.

In other words you're saying it's not to be taken literally at face value.

Der Alte · Mar 19, 2023

MMXX said:
In other words you're saying it's not to be taken literally at face value.

Look up the word analogy.

Ceallaigh · Mar 19, 2023

Der Alte said:
Look up the word analogy.

The analogy is Jesus comparing himself to those in need, that whatever you did for someone, you did for him. But that doesn't change the conclusion that those who do whatever for one person go to everlasting life. Matt 25:46 has a conclusion that you half accept and half reject.

Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

May God be with you and bless you.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

May God be with you and bless you.

Newbie

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Newbie

Newbie

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

Newbie

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

May God be with you and bless you.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

May God be with you and bless you.

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