Those who believe the perfect in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the 2nd coming...

Receivedgrace said:

Doctrine is eternal gifts are temporary. 1 Cor 13:8 is speaking to the completion of the NT. It addresses only three gifts which are sign gifts. There is no admonition in scripture that any of the other Holy Spirit gifts end.

I am disturbed that you want to rely on your experience and a PhD to support your ministry. I would be concerned that scripture does not well favor what you have claimed as a ministry. I can safely state that all the RC priests claim support for their doctrinal errors from a long list of PhDs in their church.

Unless we have a scriptural basis there can be no unity.

The Son of God is identified as the Word of God.

Click to expand...

There is not one shred of scriptural evidence that any gifts will pass at the completion of the NT. If anyone can show some we can discuss but so far all I have seen is private interpretation of scripture that in no way refers to the completion of the NT.

Guojing said:

Do you understand what Romans 14:5 is literally saying?

If you do, you won't be saying things like my doctrine "is without scriptural merit and is false based on the clear wording of scripture."

Do you not noticed that I refrained from saying that about your doctrine?

Do you really think its because yours "is full of scriptural merit and is based on the clear wording of scripture"?

Click to expand...

Well lets look at it IN CONTEXT!​

​

Romans 14​

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

This is talking about not judging according to dietary beliefs. It also refers to those weak in the faith.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I would suggest you are pulling this verse out of its proper context to bolster your position on what we are discussing , just because you are fully persuaded that fact has has no relation to this verse.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Still talking about not judging according to dietary beliefs but added mention of significance placed on different days most likely Holy Days , sabbath days or the like.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

I would suggest to you this chapter in no way discourages judging doctrines as to their scriptural support or lack thereof.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

I do not feel either you or I are judging each other as individuals but we are judging doctrine we present against scripture. That I believe is what is commanded by scripture.

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

The context of this chapter is overwhelmingly about not judging according to dietary differences. it is not a support of just any doctrine one may be fully persuaded of.

19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Still talking about dietary differences.

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I promise not to judge you on wether or not you eat meat but I will challenge doctrine which I believe is error as I am sure you will.

So the bottom line here is I believe I do understand Romans 14:5 in its proper context, do you?

Postvieww said:

There is not one shred of scriptural evidence that any gifts will pass at the completion of the NT. If anyone can show some we can discuss but so far all I have seen is private interpretation of scripture that in no way refers to the completion of the NT.

Click to expand...

As I said:

Butch5 said:

How many people are told they didn't get healed because they didn't have enough faith for the man who supposedly has the gift of healing to be effective?

Click to expand...

Mark 6:5

1. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

Faith can be a factor BUT it is not always THE ONLY factor.

Postvieww said:

Mark 6:5

1. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

Faith can be a factor BUT it is not always THE ONLY factor.

Click to expand...

What does this have to do with what I said?

Postvieww said:

There is not one shred of scriptural evidence that any gifts will pass at the completion of the NT. If anyone can show some we can discuss but so far all I have seen is private interpretation of scripture that in no way refers to the completion of the NT.

Click to expand...

As seen in the context there is little doubt that the NT canon is exactly what is being described. 1 Co 13:8-13. Have you not noticed that the further we get from Pentecost the less we see these sign gifts displayed? Paul was much closer to Pentecost and he could not heal Timothy or himself from their infirmities. Scripture is always true and fulfills itself according to the will of God.

Receivedgrace said:

As seen in the context there is little doubt that the NT canon is exactly what is being described. 1 Co 13:8-13.

Click to expand...

That is not in the context at all! You are trying to reverse engineer this passage. The doctrinal corner you have backed yourself into needs your interpretation to stand, but there is no scriptural support. Not one shred of evidence by comparing scripture with scripture that the canon is what is referred to . Where is the complete canon of scripture referred to in the canon of scripture. You have assumed this to be true and state it as a fact but you cannot make a case from the canon you insert into this passage. Look at these translations below.

VOICE
but when the perfection and fullness of God’s kingdom arrive, all the parts will end.

NLV
When everything is perfect, then we will not need these gifts that are not perfect.

Christ is perfect, we are being made perfect, Gods kingdom on earth when complete will be perfect all of these can be shown from scripture to be true. You cannot do that with your THEORY no matter how loud you scream and beat your chest you cannot show it to be true. You just desperately need it to be true.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

God set these in the church, this does not say the the first century church or until the canon is complete or when Paul last mentions something. God set them in the church, the church us still here, the gifts are still available to the church.

Where does Paul mention baptism after Acts 28? Shall we do away with that.

You said it is seen in the context, it is now on you to show that with scriptures and rational arguments and not just a claim without evidence.

Guojing said:

So why not also say I promise not to judge you whether or not you believe signs and wonders are only for the nation of Israel?

Click to expand...

I don't judge YOU at all on anything, God is the judge . I judge the words you write on this forum and the fact that you are here says you know that is a possibility. Scripture also allows us to judge against scripture the doctrines we promote.

Butch5 said:

What does this have to do with what I said?

Click to expand...

You seem to imply that faith has nothing at all to do with healing when it does play a part at times.

"Butch5 said:
How many people are told they didn't get healed because they didn't have enough faith for the man who supposedly has the gift of healing to be effective?"

You also cannot let go of the fact that that men do not posess and use gifts as they will. It is God who operates through men as He wills.

The point I was a making from Mark 6:5 is that even Jesus was hindered by unbelief.

Mark 6:5
And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Receivedgrace said:

Paul was much closer to Pentecost and he could not heal Timothy or himself from their infirmities.

Click to expand...

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Where does it say Paul even prayed for this ? Where does it say Paul couldn't heal Timothy? Oh yeah it doesn't you inserted that into the text to support false doctrine.

Did you consider Timothy was told to no longer drink water because it possibly could have been tainted bad water making him sick? No you probably didn't consider that because it doesn't fit a false narrative.

Now let's look at Paul, of course Paul couldn't heal himself because Christ is the healer, just a small fact left out.

2 Timothy 3:11
Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

Did you consider the above verse? No probably not , it does not fit the narrative either.

Surely you are not referring to Paul's thorn in the flesh. News flash Paul's thorn was not a sickness he could not find relief from, it was not a sickness at all.


2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Do you insert the word sickness for infirmities? I hope not , the context does not support that. In fact Paul tells us what his infirmities were!

2 Corinthians 11:
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

What is missing from the above list of infirmities? Paul did not mention covid 19, a head ache, a stomach ache, or any other sickness , his thorn is not sickness. Pauls thorn in the flesh was just what he said it was ,infirmities, reproaches, necessities, persecutions, distresses for Christ's sake.

Infirmities in the Greek can mean sickness, it also can mean weakness either physical or spiritual. In the case of Paul he in great detail described his infirmities never once mentioning sickness.

Don't forget when he wrote 2 Timothy he said he had been delivered!

2 Timothy 3:11
Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

The statement Paul could not heal himself is not supported by scripture not to mention he didn't even complain with sickness.

This whole gifts have ceased theory is FALSE!

Guojing said:

So why not also say I promise not to judge you whether or not you believe signs and wonders are only for the nation of Israel?

Is that difference not similar to whether a Christian should eat meat or not? Why not?

Click to expand...

No. Because you are trying to use it out of context. Nothing similar here.

Guojing said:

One believes eating meat is alright between God and him, another does not.

One believes signs are only for Israel, another does not.

What is the difference?

Click to expand...

Diversion from the issue at hand. Believe what you want. I know I will not convince you of anything, I only counter your false doctrine to show the other side.

Romans 14​

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. This was about those weak in the faith surely you do not want to compare to that.

Guojing said:

If you want to think those who are "weak in faith" are the ones who think signs are only for the nation of Israel, I am perfectly fine.

Click to expand...

That’s not what I said . It is you trying to use Romans 14 out of context.

Guojing said:

You did say this correct? "This was about those weak in the faith surely you do not want to compare to that."

Click to expand...

Don’t twist my words you know what I said. What part of “ surely you do not want to compare to that “ do you not understand?