What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]

RandyPNW · Mar 15, 2023

Andrewn said:
This is common sense that I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with.

Are you contradicting yourself????

No, I will reiterate. God does not save on the basis of your nationality or race. But He has predetermined to save a number from each nation and race. Thus, nationality and race does play a role in the matter of God's intention and in the matter of His integrity in fulfilling promises He has made.

If God has promised to save the nation Israel as a viable nation of faith, then it is on His honor to fulfill that pledge. That nation must be considered if indeed that particular nation is promised something. If Israel is promised something, then that nation must be considered by God to be the object of His promises.

The same holds true for all nations since God has promised *some* within each race and nation, and has promised Abraham many nations and states. The nations He selects from must be the particular nations in existence--otherwise, God's promise means nothing.

For example, God promises a father and a mother that they will have children of faith to perpetuate their home and estate, as well as their ministry. But He doesn't save the children in order to fulfill the promise--they must opt for faith for themselves. They must choose to be the fulfillment of what God has promised their parents.

If the children fail to choose to bear the faith of their parents, then the Lord, in order to fulfill His promise, will raise up more children until He obtains children that choose this destiny.

That's what God does. He guarantees a particular family, a particular race, a particular nation descendants of faith to maintain the heritage of the parents. But who fulfills those roles is a matter of choice by the children, whether they are to accept their destiny or not.

God does not choose them simply because they are flesh and blood children of parents to whom the promise is made. God does not save Israelis simply because they are descended from Israel. They must choose the destiny that God has promised Abraham.

Do you see what I'm saying? Nationality and Race do not determine the success of the descendants of Israel in fulfilling their role. But God's promise does guarantee success with Israel, and as such, a distinct nation, Israel, must be in consideration.

God has determined that eventually it will be Israel's descendants that choose to fulfil their promised role. How God arrives at children who accept their destiny is in God's hands.

RevealedTruths · Mar 15, 2023

linux.poet said:
I really don't think that immortal bodies can have sexual interactions with mortal ones.

The verses about children during the Millennium refer to the mortal, and likely Jewish, Tribulation survivors under the Pre-Trib model, and not to the Raptured Church. I think @keras ideas are interesting, but I'm not sure I can subscribe to them.

What about people who deeply desired marriage and children, but for whatever reason didn't manage to get it? Will they just be turned into sexless drones, while the godless, 'unglorified' mortals will enjoy God's blessings of happy marriages and families? That wouldn't be just at all, and God is a just God. As it is written, "You will not withold good things from those who love You..."

ViaCrucis · Mar 15, 2023

Handmaid for Jesus said:
The question was what would YOU DO? Answer the question pretty please.

If I was a dad and I saw my family in a burning house I'd try to save them. If it was within my power I'd want to snuff out the whole fire too and rebuild the house.

God is far better than me, so not is He saving us, He also has put to death the fire and will rebuild the house.

-CryptoLutheran

Handmaid for Jesus · Mar 15, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
If I was a dad and I saw my family in a burning house I'd try to save them. If it was within my power I'd want to snuff out the whole fire too and rebuild the house.

God is far better than me, so not is He saving us, He also has put to death the fire and will rebuild the house.

-CryptoLutheran

Very good, thank you for that answer. However to rebuild the house, you would have to remove your family.

ViaCrucis · Mar 15, 2023

Handmaid for Jesus said:
Very good, thank you for that answer. However to rebuild the house, you would have to remove your family.

Why didn't God let Stephen get stoned to death instead of rapturing him away? The house was on fire, but God didn't remove Stephen, Stephen was stoned to death.

Paul was beheaded.
Peter was crucified upside-down.
Matthew was flayed alive.

Christians were fed to lions, nailed to crosses, beaten, scourged, covered in oil and lit on fire. Why didn't God rapture them?

They weren't "removed", they suffered--they suffered worse than you or I could even possibly imagine.

How does your reasoning deal with the martyrs?

-CryptoLutheran

Handmaid for Jesus · Mar 15, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
How does your reasoning deal with the martyrs?

There is wrath of man and wrath of God. The martyrs suffered for the name of Jesus Christ by the hands of evil men. Our Father hears our prayers to deliver from evil. The wrath of God comes on the Earth and upon the dwellers on the Earth in the end time.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

But many think by their own good works they will be saved. God will not pour out His wrath upon Jesus a second time.

linux.poet · Mar 15, 2023

RevealedTruths said:
What about people who deeply desired marriage and children, but for whatever reason didn't manage to get it? Will they just be turned into sexless drones, while the godless, 'unglorified' mortals will enjoy God's blessings of happy marriages and families?

Yes.

Matthew 22:30 said:
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Sometimes God is just brutal and you just have to accept it.

Andrewn · Mar 16, 2023

RandyPNW said:
He has predetermined to save a number from each nation and race.

RandyPNW said:
If the children fail to choose to bear the faith of their parents, then the Lord, in order to fulfill His promise, will raise up more children until He obtains children that choose this destiny. That's what God does.

This is a fascinating theory.

RevealedTruths said:
What about people who deeply desired marriage and children, but for whatever reason didn't manage to get it? Will they just be turned into sexless drones, while the godless, 'unglorified' mortals will enjoy God's blessings of happy marriages and families?

Good question.

keras · Mar 16, 2023

linux.poet said:
Sometimes God is just brutal and you just have to accept it.

God is a Creator and if what anyone creates turns out to be flawed, then the usual option is to destroy it and try again.
But we see from the Prophesies of the clay pots; Jeremiah 18:1-6, that God intended to remould the 'clay' that was the House of Israel.
The 'clay pots' representing the House of Judah, will be smashed beyond repair.

We Christians are the House of Israel and we have turned to righteousness thru belief in Jesus.

RandyPNW · Mar 17, 2023

Andrewn said:
This is a fascinating theory.

It is a theory, yes. But there are Scriptures that suggest my "theory."

Matt 3.9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Paul appears to suggest that it is wrong to discount the fact God promised Abraham the existence of Israel as a nation of faith. The fact the majority are not yet in compliance does not mean that at the coming of Christ Israel will not be restored.

Rom 11.1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!.. 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace... 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!...
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."

keras · Mar 17, 2023

RandyPNW said:
Paul appears to suggest that it is wrong to discount the fact God promised Abraham the existence of Israel as a nation of faith. The fact the majority are not yet in compliance does not mean that at the coming of Christ Israel will not be restored.

I ask you again; Which Israel will God restore?

Will they be those mixed race peoples currently living in a small part of the holy Land and who call their nation Israel?
Or will they be the Israelites of God; the Overcomers for Him, the peoples who have accepted Jesus now and who will prove their faith and trust in His protection during the forthcoming test of our faith. 1 Peter 4:12?

Andrewn · Mar 18, 2023

RandyPNW said:
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."

It seems that Paul is saying that all the Gentiles alive in his time will be saved, and then all the Jews who live in his time will be saved.

Handmaid for Jesus · Mar 18, 2023

Andrewn said:
It seems that Paul is saying that all the Gentiles alive in his time will be saved, and then all the Jews who live in his time will be saved.

How can you see that?

This is what I see in that verse.
1. It is possible that people can become conceited thinking God has abandoned Israel when He has not.
2. Israel's hardening is only partial( temporary),meaning some will be hardened and some will not be hardened.
3. There are a set number of Gentiles to come into the Kingdom. When that number is complete (FULL), then ALL of Israel (All twelve tribes, including the Jews, tribe of Judah) will be saved.

Andrewn · Mar 18, 2023

Handmaid for Jesus said:
How can you see that? This is what I see in that verse.
1. It is possible that people can become conceited thinking God has abandoned Israel when He has not.
2. Israel's hardening is only partial( temporary),meaning some will be hardened and some will not be hardened.
3. There are a set number of Gentiles to come into the Kingdom. When that number is complete (FULL), then ALL of Israel (All twelve tribes, including the Jews, tribe of Judah) will be saved.

Yes, Rom 11 is usually interpreted to mean that the elect of the Gentiles will be saved and the elect of the Jews will be saved. However, we read:

Rom 11:32 For God has condemned them so He might be merciful to all.

Handmaid for Jesus · Mar 18, 2023

Andrewn said:
Yes, Rom 11 is usually interpreted to mean that the elect of the Gentiles will be saved and the elect of the Jews will be saved. However, we read:

Rom 11:32 For God has condemned them so He might be merciful to all.

Which translation are you using?

Romans 11:32 — English Standard Version (ESV)

32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Romans 11:32 — King James Version (KJV 1900)

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Romans 11:32 — New Living Translation (NLT)

32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

Romans 11:32 — New Century Version (NCV)

32 God has given all people over to their stubborn ways so that he can show mercy to all.

Romans 11:32 — American Standard Version (ASV)

32 For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.

Andrewn · Mar 19, 2023

Handmaid for Jesus said:
Which translation are you using?

All translations indicate that God will have mercy on all. To avoid a universalist interpretation, this is usually understood as "all the elect" or "all the Church."

RandyPNW · Mar 19, 2023

Andrewn said:
It seems that Paul is saying that all the Gentiles alive in his time will be saved, and then all the Jews who live in his time will be saved.

I don't believe it's possible to view it that way? Paul clearly indicated the present situation prevented Israel's national salvation, there being at present only a remnant, and not a whole nation, devoted to Christ. By contrast, he was saying that in the future Christ would come to rectify this situation, rendering, apparently through judgment, a restoration of the nation to God and to Christ.

TribulationSigns · Mar 19, 2023

RandyPNW said:
I don't believe it's possible to view it that way? Paul clearly indicated the present situation prevented Israel's national salvation, there being at present only a remnant, and not a whole nation, devoted to Christ. By contrast, he was saying that in the future Christ would come to rectify this situation, rendering, apparently through judgment, a restoration of the nation to God and to Christ.

You mean Israel, right? Yes, and it has been repeatedly stated here by myself, the church today is acting as Old Testament Israel did in almost every way. You even have the dispensationalists telling you that national Israel is God's Elect people forever because they are caught up in that SAME BLIND ALLEGIANCE to a building and those who need its security in the land. I have repeatedly warned with Scripture about the similarity of the troubles of the Old Testament Israel and the New Testament Israel, the church. Both started out well and both fell into decline through rebellion and disobedience. I do not think that is accidental that both Israels fall due to the very same ills from within. Do you think God is trying to tell His people something?

Not many people here will hear.

RandyPNW · Mar 20, 2023

TribulationSigns said:
You mean Israel, right? Yes, and it has been repeatedly stated here by myself, the church today is acting as Old Testament Israel did in almost every way. You even have the dispensationalists telling you that national Israel is God's Elect people forever because they are caught up in that SAME BLIND ALLEGIANCE to a building and those who need its security in the land. I have repeatedly warned with Scripture about the similarity of the troubles of the Old Testament Israel and the New Testament Israel, the church. Both started out well and both fell into decline through rebellion and disobedience. I do not think that is accidental that both Israels fall due to the very same ills from within. Do you think God is trying to tell His people something?

Not many people here will hear.

Not everything you say *should* be heard, if it isn't correct. And I would take issue of a couple of things you're saying, though not in a hostile way. I don't believe the NT Church is "Israel." That is Replacement Theology vernacular. I'm not a proponent of that. I don't support that.

Nor would I characterize Dispensationalists as irresponsible for believing that God's eternal covenant with national Israel didn't fail. I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I do believe God's promises to Israel are true. Though not all Jews belong to true Israel, God said He would restore the nation and at some point restore them to *never more* be scattered abroad.

I would agree with you that Dispensationalists can sometimes become too supportive of Israel, even while Israel remains uncommitted to Christ. I think we should love the Jews and continue to testify to them about Christ. But I don't think we should overlook the fact they are sinners and not necessarily to be trusted. I think Israel will be saved as a nation *after* judgment!

I would agree that some Christians place more stock in church buildings than in a living fellowship between believers, who are the real Church. To put too much emphasis on religious tradition is indeed like what the Jews did when they sacrificed Christ for their Jewish traditions. In effect they wished to live independent of God while giving lip service to God.

But I wouldn't at all characterize all Christians as spiritually dead. Over time large groups of believers are whittled down to a few through the many tribulations and pressures of this life. I wouldn't say all are going to be damned. But those who prevail and overcome in their faith are relatively few over time. Nations called and chosen of God ultimately fall and become un-chosen, though I still believe that God's promises of restoring nations will in the end succeed.

What God promised Abraham, the nation of Israel and many nations of faith, have been partly fulfilled and remain to be completely fulfilled in the future. Changing the meaning of "Israel" will not help that, in my view.

keras · Mar 20, 2023

RandyPNW said:
Changing the meaning of "Israel" will not help that, in my view.

The name of Israel was given to Jacob - the Overcomer for God.
Just because a people group have taken that name, does not give them that status.

The real Israelites for God, are those individual peoples who have freely chosen to believe in God and Jesus and who keep their Commandments.
At present they are all scattered among the nations, soon to gather and live in all of the holy Land. Matthew 8:11-12

What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]