Some contend against Blessed Mary

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,968
2,886
Minnesota
✟208,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
Romans 3:10-12

Mary is in Heaven solely because Christ took away her sin on the cross.
That passage does not even mention Jesus. And let me break the news to you, there are a number of righteous people mentioned in the Bible. Eve sinned, and Mary did not:

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might also be the course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the most high would overshadow her, for which reason the holy one being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” [Lk 1:38].

Justin Martyr – Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (155 A.D.)

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That passage does not even mention Jesus.

10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands, no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong;
no one does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in
Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. Romans 3:10-25

And let me break the news to you, there are a number of righteous people mentioned in the Bible.
Eve sinned, and Mary did not:

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might also be the course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death.

But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the most high would overshadow her, for which reason the holy one being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” [Lk 1:38].

Justin Martyr – Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (155 A.D.)

That doesn't say Mary was without sin.

Why are you having such a hard time accepting the fact that Mary being without sin, an immaculate conception, a perpetual virgin, and the "Queen of Heaven" is a completely unscriptural tradition that developed after the time of the Apostles and the Apostolic Fathers?
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,968
2,886
Minnesota
✟208,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
That passage does not even mention Jesus. And let me break the news to you, there are a number of righteous people mentioned in the Bible.


10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands, no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong;
no one does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in
Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. Romans 3:10-25


That doesn't say Mary was without sin.

Why are you having such a hard time accepting the fact that Mary being without sin, an immaculate conception, a perpetual virgin, and the "Queen of Heaven" is a completely unscriptural tradition that developed after the time of the Apostles and the Apostolic Fathers?
Why do you make unscriptural claims when you are supposedly Bible only?
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Why do you make unscriptural claims when you are supposedly Bible only?
Unless you can show where I made unscriptural claims in my replies to you, then I'd say you're bearing False Witness against me.

Obviously I'm not Bible only since I'm willing to take into consideration what the Apostolic Fathers wrote. And as far as I can see Justin Martyr did not write that Mary was without original sin in the passage you quoted.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JulieB67

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2020
1,572
726
56
Ohio US
✟147,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That passage does not even mention Jesus. And let me break the news to you, there are a number of righteous people mentioned in the Bible. Eve sinned, and Mary did not:
Even Christ states there is none good but One -God. Are you really going to say that's not true? We know our Father's spirit was residing in Christ, but what of Mary? He didn't say there is none good but Two -my Father and Mother.

Christ is talking about us in the flesh. We will never truly be good until we have endured until the end. Because in the flesh there will always be a battle of putting the spirit above the flesh.

I John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

This would have been a perfect time to mention Mary if she herself was without sin. Again, none of the disciples and apostles ever raised her up as having not sinned, etc.

This is what I mean when I've stated we can't contradict scripture with tradition. Scripture has to trump all, especially when these words come from our Savior.

We know there are good and righteous people but we are all in the same boat while we are in these flesh bodies and we have to always strive to the end to put the spirit above the flesh and Mary was no different seeing how she was in the flesh. And there's not one scripture that suggests otherwise.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,968
2,886
Minnesota
✟208,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Even Christ states there is none good but One -God. Are you really going to say that's not true? We know our Father's spirit was residing in Christ, but what of Mary? He didn't say there is none good but Two -my Father and Mother.

Christ is talking about us in the flesh. We will never truly be good until we have endured until the end. Because in the flesh there will always be a battle of putting the spirit above the flesh.

I John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

This would have been a perfect time to mention Mary if she herself was without sin. Again, none of the disciples and apostles ever raised her up as having not sinned, etc.

This is what I mean when I've stated we can't contradict scripture with tradition. Scripture has to trump all, especially when these words come from our Savior.

We know there are good and righteous people but we are all in the same boat while we are in these flesh bodies and we have to always strive to the end to put the spirit above the flesh and Mary was no different seeing how she was in the flesh. And there's not one scripture that suggests otherwise.
God's Word does not trump God's word. You are misinterpreting the Bible, such phrases either apply to each individual or not. It was a perfect time to mention Jesus, but John did not.

Genesis 7:1​

The Great Flood​

Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,968
2,886
Minnesota
✟208,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Unless you can show where I made unscriptural claims in my replies to you, then I'd say you're bearing False Witness against me.
Tone it down. I just did. As I said, the passage you provided does not even mention Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

JulieB67

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2020
1,572
726
56
Ohio US
✟147,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It was a perfect time to mention Jesus, but John did not.
We have mentions of Jesus not sinning, but we don't have a single one that points out Mary was sinless.

What is your interpretation then, what does Christ mean when he specifically states there is none good but One?
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
God's Word does not trump God's word. You are misinterpreting the Bible, such phrases either apply to each individual or not. It was a perfect time to mention Jesus, but John did not.
Your line of reasoning is that if a verse from a chapter that's all about Jesus, doesn't have the name of Jesus in it, then it's not about Jesus. Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Genesis 7:1​

The Great Flood​

Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
But Noah wasn't without sin. Genesis 9 says that Noah put himself into a drunken stupor. Abraham lied. Jacob committed fraud. Moses committed murder. As did David. Jesus is the only person who didn't inherit original sin because He was the Son of God, not Adam, and He's the only person who never committed a sin. That's the only way He could have been the unblemished Lamb of God to be a final full atonement for both original sin and committed sins. Which you will discover if you sit down, read, and study the entire Epistle of Romans.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,968
2,886
Minnesota
✟208,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Your line of reasoning is that if a verse from a chapter that's all about Jesus, doesn't have the name of Jesus in it, then it's not about Jesus. Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

But Noah wasn't without sin. Genesis 9 says that Noah put himself into a drunken stupor. Abraham lied. Jacob committed fraud. Moses committed murder. As did David. Jesus is the only person who didn't inherit original sin because He was the Son of God, not Adam, and He's the only person who never committed a sin. That's the only way He could have been the unblemished Lamb of God to be a final full atonement for both original sin and committed sins. Which you will discover if you sit down, read, and study the entire Epistle of Romans.
Go back and carefully examine your claim.

The passage we are discussing now is about who was righteous, not who was without sin. But it's a good example of the misinterpretation of passages and the folly of using one phrase to supposedly prove a point.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,968
2,886
Minnesota
✟208,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Romans 3 is all about Jesus. And in that chapter the name of Jesus is mentioned 3 times. In the entire epistle of Romans the name of Jesus is mentioned 37 times in the ESV Catholic Edition. I get the very strong impression that you haven't studied the Bible much, and therefore are mistaken about what's being misinterpreted and what's unscriptural.
You cited Romans 3:10-12 which in fact does not mention Jesus. I asked you to tone it down. It was your citation and your claim.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You cited Romans 3:10-12 which in fact does not mention Jesus. I asked you to tone it down. It was your citation and your claim.
Either Romans 3:10-12 applies to everyone except Jesus, or Jesus is included. I provided an extension of the passage by posting Romans 3:10-25 to give you a more comprehensive understanding. But I guess you didn't see it or you chose to ignore it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Go back and carefully examine your claim.

The passage we are discussing now is about who was righteous, not who was without sin. But it's a good example of the misinterpretation of passages and the folly of using one phrase to supposedly prove a point.
Try reading the whole chapter. Or better yet, the whole Epistle. Or if you want, listen to someone read it to you in several audio versions available for free on YouTube. It only takes narrators an hour to read the whole thing.
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
None is righteous, no, not one - Romans 3:10...

since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23...

they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus - Romans 3:24
 
Upvote 0

JulieB67

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2020
1,572
726
56
Ohio US
✟147,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are misinterpreting the Bible,
You keep stating this but I ask again, what is your interpretation then when Christ states "there is none good but One"

What does he mean by "there is none good"?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,968
2,886
Minnesota
✟208,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
We're talking about Romans 3:10-12 at the moment which MMXX posted which starts out . . . "None is righteous, no, no not one . . ."

There are other examples, the first person that came to my mind as per spoken of as "righteous" was Job, God spoke highly of Job, but how about Zechariah and Elizabeth?

Luke 1:5-6

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

The Birth of John the Baptist Foretold​

5 [a]In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari′ah,[b] of the division of Abi′jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Catholics believe the Word of God is inerrant, but for us that means God is making exactly the point God wishes to make. Sometimes "all" is used as a manner of speaking and sometimes it is not. Is the word translated into the English "all" or an equivalent used to mean every single individual or not? Or is "none" really meant to exclude every single individual? To determine that we use the context, are the words aimed at a specific audience, is a person to which the text is being applied specifically being spoken of? We take into account the entire Word of God, which includes how the new is seen in the old and the old fulfilled in the new.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JulieB67

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2020
1,572
726
56
Ohio US
✟147,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We're talking about Romans 3:10-12 at the moment which MMXX posted which starts out . . . "None is righteous, no, no not one . . ."
I'm was specifically asking about Christ's own words. And he makes the clear distinction of not just saying "no, not one but he states there is none good "but" One. Making the meaning clear imo.

The words I stated come from this verse-


Matthew 19:17 "And He said unto him, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but One, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."


You then stated I am misterpreting this verse, so I was asking you what you think Christ means when he states there is none good but One?

To me it's obvious Christ is talking about us in the flesh and that we are totally separate in that aspect from God. And I stated that we know God's spirit is in Christ's but what of Mary? We know she is righteous as many others are but she is clearly not in the same category as Christ and our Father and Christ makes that clear in this verse-"there is none good but One."

Since I am misterpreting this as you stated, what is your interpretation?
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,879.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Mat 19:16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?
19:17 Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jerome: For Our Saviour does not reject this witness to His goodness, but corrected the error of calling Him Good Master apart from God.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,968
2,886
Minnesota
✟208,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I'm was specifically asking about Christ's own words. And he makes the clear distinction of not just saying "no, not one but he states there is none good "but" One. Making the meaning clear imo.

The words I stated come from this verse-


Matthew 19:17 "And He said unto him, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but One, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."


You then stated I am misterpreting this verse, so I was asking you what you think Christ means when he states there is none good but One?

To me it's obvious Christ is talking about us in the flesh and that we are totally separate in that aspect from God. And I stated that we know God's spirit is in Christ's but what of Mary? We know she is righteous as many others are but she is clearly not in the same category as Christ and our Father and Christ makes that clear in this verse-"there is none good but One."

Since I am misterpreting this as you stated, what is your interpretation?
I use the same approach. Matthew also says:
12:35 The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.
RSVCE
I don't believe that Mat 19:17 is there to say that no man ever was sinless, I believe Matthew 12:35 to be true as is the entire Word of God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
2,549
270
87
Arcadia
✟193,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Quoted or not, I imagine that you've read some of her writings. :)
Some say that MARY is in heaven a FALLACIOUS , because John 3:13 says , that no man hath ascended up to heaven , but He that that came down from HEAVEN , even the Son of Man which is in heaven .
All Jews who died went to Abraham.s Bosom in Luke 16:22 and 23 or there would have a special resurrection ,

Mary is not in HEAVEN , PERIOD .

dan p
 
Upvote 0