I walked out of church today

FireDragon76 · Mar 10, 2023

Ever since being an older kid, I've felt horribly out of place. It didn't help that I grew up as a military brat, always moving around. Years ago I lamented to an old Episcopalian priest that I seemed to be wandering and had no roots. He just said "Remember Abraham wandered, too."

That was comforting, but I think we all have a sense of needing rootedness under the surface in America, but nobody can actualize it, because our culture mitigates against it so much. To be rooted means to give up alot of your sense of self and autonomy, something Americans take as an absolute, we are all about the "pursuit of happiness". It's drummed in us from a young age that this is the best way to live (and it shows, I think its half the reason Americans went crazy about COVID, suddenly they were asked to think about life on the scale beyond the individual, and for some fragile people, that was simply asking for too much).

I am listening to a podcast about that subject, about how libertarian individualism is a recipe for an unfulfilled life, that Americans are prone to, by Patrick Deenan, a professor and public intellectual at the University of Notre Dame. Normally I am wary of anything resembling Communitarian political thought, how its tended to manifest itself in the past through Radical Traditionalist (RadTrad) Catholicism (yuck), but his book has been endorsed by people on all sides of the political spectrum.

public hermit · Mar 10, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Ever since being an older kid, I've felt horribly out of place. It didn't help that I grew up as a military brat, always moving around. Years ago I lamented to an old Episcopalian priest that I seemed to be wandering and had no roots. He just said "Remember Abraham wandered, too."

That was comforting, but I think we all have a sense of needing rootedness under the surface in America, but nobody can actualize it, because our culture mitigates against it so much. To be rooted means to give up alot of your sense of self and autonomy, something Americans take as an absolute, we are all about the "pursuit of happiness". It's drummed in us from a young age that this is the best way to live (and it shows, I think its half the reason Americans went crazy about COVID, suddenly they were asked to think about life on the scale beyond the individual, and for some fragile people, that was simply asking for too much).

I am listening to a podcast about that subject, about how libertarian individualism is a recipe for an unfulfilled life, that Americans are prone to, by Patrick Deenan, a professor and public intellectual at the University of Notre Dame. Normally I am wary of anything resembling Communitarian political thought, how its tended to manifest itself in the past through Radical Traditionalist (RadTrad) Catholicism (yuck), but his book has been endorsed by people on all sides of the political spectrum.

I can relate about not feeling rooted. My dad was a pastor/military chaplain, and we moved every four years due to the denomination he served in at the time. In adulthood, I have continued to move around. Initially, it was work and then school. I have longed all my life to put down roots.

This is just my experience so grain of salt, but since I've become immersed in contemplative practice I no longer have that desire, or at least it's not as strong. I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps, my change of focus from myself, which seems to be our default position, to the divine presence and my immediate surroundings has a lot to do with it. I'm in a position now to stay where I am, but I'm not as obsessed with the idea as I once was.

I don't know, but the last several years I have been learning from the Christian mystics, and that has change a lot of my outlook. Maybe it sounds counterintuitive, but I think their perspective on Christian faith may be a way out of the fear, radical individualism, and insular tendencies we see in the larger Christian culture. The tendency to cultivate a heart "empty of creatures," which seems to permeate the literature, and full of God gives one a different perspective of others and what really matters. Detachment seems to encourage a more generous heart.

FireDragon76 · Mar 10, 2023

public hermit said:
I can relate about not feeling rooted. My dad was a pastor/military chaplain, and we moved every four years due to the denomination he served in at the time. In adulthood, I have continued to move around. Initially, it was work and then school. I have longed all my life to put down roots.

This is just my experience so grain of salt, but since I've become immersed in contemplative practice I no longer have that desire, or at least it's not as strong. I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps, my change of focus from myself, which seems to be our default position, to the divine presence and my immediate surroundings has a lot to do with it. I'm in a position now to stay where I am, but I'm not as obsessed with the idea as I once was.

We will have to trade notes some time.

I have a background in Zen meditation and knowledge of Buddhism in my past, and I experienced a spiritual breakthrough from that around age 30 (I can't remember exactly). I still practice that type of meditation I learned from the Plum Village movement (mostly, awareness of breath. Sometimes I do biofeedback-assisted meditation, too). I'm trying to wrap my head around Christian contemplative prayer. I am a little familiar with the Quakers, having participated a few times in those types of services (just observing and sitting in silence), but I am more drawn to sacramental churches, too (in that way, I seem to be similar to Cynthia Bourgeault, an Episcopalian priest who was raised in Quaker schools).

I admit I struggle with the idea of God at times, and all the baggage of Christianity, because what I absorbed from American Evangelicalism in my teens was toxic (I was raised in somewhat liberal Methodist churches, mostly formerly German Brethren, as my ancestors were for the most part), went to a mainline Protestant chaple on base, but when I returned to America, suddenly found myself in Northern Virginia which was full of early 1990's Evangelical Christian culture, highly polemical and political, and I was naive and dumb enough to assume that was "real"). Like many young Evangelicals are going through today, I deconstructed into being a "none" long before it was fashionable. Reading the Early Church Fathers actually helped in that regard (I knew nothing about late ancient or medieval Church history or Eastern Orthodoxy at the time, so I just assumed Christianity no longer existed as such- the religion described in the EFC's didn't look like Evangelicalism or the liberal Protestantism I was raised with).

I was drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy in my early 30's and really resonated with that mystical theology, but I couldn't call it my home because I was in a culturally conservative parish full of ex-evangelicals who brought their attitudes and fragility with them into the Church. So it was just Evangelicalism in drag in terms of the actual culture, lots of "young restless and Reformed" types, chrismated into the church. I lived a serious spiritual life as a catechumen, as best as I could, but I was misunderstood, and punished for it by a priest who was himself full of unacknowledged baggage (also ex-Evangelical, of the Fundamentalist sort. He didn't even see any real movies until he became an adult). I felt a bit like Luther, in fact, nothing I did was ever good enough to please the authority figures I believed in, and I suppose that's why I was drawn to Lutheranism.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 10, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
I walked out of our Lutheran (ELCA) church this evening, at the evening service (we have been visiting the local UCC church in the mornings). The service began with the pastor introducing the security team leader advising us to not give money to homeless people, because it might attract more or them, and they might use the money to buy alcohol. My blood ran cold, and I just couldn't participate in the service after that, and I left.

As some might know here, I've had issues with how this church handles "security" before. But I think this crosses a line, for many reasons. For one thing, I took an ethics class in college, and one of the lesson plans involved listening to C. Everett Koop discussing ethics with a group of people, and Dr. Koop said he wouldn't have a problem ethically with giving money to somebody who might be an alcoholic, because he understood that alcohol withdrawl can be dangerous . I also think it's incredibly judgemental to assume that a homeless person is an alcoholic and/or wouldn't know how to use the money wisley, like its a subtle denial of the dignity of homeless people in general. It's just wrong on many levels. Jesus said to give to the person who asks, after all.

So, disappointed, I left at the beginning of the service with my S.O. I am not sure what to do now, and I am looking for advice.

I give money to homeless people all the time, everybody in my family does. A year ago I gave money to somebody nonchalantly who was begging at a fast food restaurant. I didn't even consider myself a Christian really anymore, but I just did it out of compassion, without any thought. I wonder how people can be so afraid to help other people and cut them a break? Why are homeless people so scary to some people? I just believe in giving because I want to be the change in the world I want to see. I don't want to be a fearful person who says "no" to somebody else that "makes me uncomfortable". However much discomfort I feel, I'm betting the other person is feeling alot more in asking for money.

Personally, I would never give much money to a homeless person ...

FireDragon76 · Mar 14, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
Personally, I would never give much money to a homeless person ...

I don't give huge amounts of money, but I have given enough money to buy food when asked.

I talked to the local UCC/Congregationalist pastor today and she also agreed she didn't think prohibiting giving money to beggars was something a church should do.

So I think I will have to disaffiliate from my Lutheran congregation. They are binding my conscience contrary to God's will, and it is a serious and grave matter. As John Chrysostom said, "If you do not find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find him in the chalice".

There aren't alot of choices for acceptable churches in my area, in terms of liberal mainline churches. So I may be transferring my membership to the UCC, short of any better local options. I'm not used to all aspects of the spirituality (it's a low church congregation, half the hymns are very unfamiliar, communion is once a month), but there are good people there.

timewerx · Mar 14, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
the security team leader advising us to not give money to homeless people, because it might attract more or them, and they might use the money to buy alcohol.

Many Christians use this as excuse to not give to the poor and especially to strangers.

Yet, the Bible tells us to be more generous and merciful especially to strangers. The antiChristian spirit is growing stronger among Christian churches and among Christians.

They fail to see the logic of Christ's teachings. they listen more to their wallets than Jesus as if their wallet or bank account is their god.

You just keep on giving because one of them might turn out to be a child of God. If you helped a child of God, it negates the negative outcomes of hundreds of others who used the money for booze or drugs. That's just it. Christians don't get it.

Rescued One · Mar 15, 2023

Why not give hamburgers or socks?

ViaCrucis · Mar 15, 2023

I've always had a hard time with the "don't give to homeless people" language I've heard many times over my life. If I want to give I'll give, and the Scriptures praise cheerful giving as a virtue.

One of the issues I think is modern western culture has been shaped by certain ideas which have tended toward the viewing of the homeless and most vulnerable poor as parasitic and a nuissance. We could talk about a lot of the reasons for that, but I think it is unmistakeable that this is view which has seeped into the ways we view the poor as a society. I mean, heck, there are more un-used houses in the United States than there are homeless families, and virtually all experts agree that housing-first is the best solution to address the homelessness epidemic in the US. And it's not that most Americans are, in theory, against helping the poor and the homeless; but negative stigmas and culturally-shaped ideas have created unhealthy biases which can result in NIMBYism ("Not in my back yard").

But here is my thinking: I don't know if someone is going to use the money I give them for food, or to help them get a new pair of socks, a bottle of booze, or drugs. But if I lived my life assuming the worst in my neighbor then I'm going to become a very mean and cynical person, and I don't see how I can live out my vocational calling as a disciple of Jesus Christ by regarding my neighbor with harsh suspicion and judgment rather than compassion and generosity.

"I was hungry, and you did not feed Me" is something Jesus says is so serious that when we stand before Him on the Day of Judgment that this is what is going to matter. "I was a homeless man and you didn't give Me a dollar" is going to be hot coals heaped upon our heads on the Last Day.

The answer, the only answer that I can see, is radical attitude shifts that are rooted in biblical ethics and the "renewing of [our] minds" as Paul says. This is something the modern western Church is going to need to take seriously, especially as wealth disparity grows, as we see the loss of a middle class, the income gap widen, and more people suffering from low income, no income, and poverty. To be a Church that is faithful to Jesus, even when it is inconvenient--especially when it is inconvenient to us.

The Lord have mercy on us.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Mar 15, 2023

MMXX said:
I disagree with the priest in that most of them are buying cheap deadly drugs like crack and tranq* rather than alcohol or at least ahead of alcohol. The number of addicts to cheap street drugs is growing exponentially.

*Tranq (Warning the effects of this new cheap highly addictive street drug may be destressing to read about).

Usually the cash you're handing them becomes poison going into their veins. They get their food through EBT.

I live in the heart of downtown and I see this going on around me daily. I've seen the number of drug addicts on the street triple in the last five years. It's become a serious epidemic.

This sounds like good reasons to support housing-first solutions and free rehabilitation resources.

But I think it's entirely unfair to assume my neighbor is going to use drugs first. When the choice becomes "you could help by doing something" and "doing nothing could harm" then the risk/reward of the situation is such that the potential to help outweighs the possible harm of doing nothing--yes, doing something could also be harmful possibly--but assuming the worst creates a toxic mindset about the vulnerable.

-CryptoLutheran

FireDragon76 · Mar 15, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
I've always had a hard time with the "don't give to homeless people" language I've heard many times over my life. If I want to give I'll give, and the Scriptures praise cheerful giving as a virtue.

One of the issues I think is modern western culture has been shaped by certain ideas which have tended toward the viewing of the homeless and most vulnerable poor as parasitic and a nuissance. We could talk about a lot of the reasons for that, but I think it is unmistakeable that this is view which has seeped into the ways we view the poor as a society. I mean, heck, there are more un-used houses in the United States than there are homeless families, and virtually all experts agree that housing-first is the best solution to address the homelessness epidemic in the US. And it's not that most Americans are, in theory, against helping the poor and the homeless; but negative stigmas and culturally-shaped ideas have created unhealthy biases which can result in NIMBYism ("Not in my back yard").

But here is my thinking: I don't know if someone is going to use the money I give them for food, or to help them get a new pair of socks, a bottle of booze, or drugs. But if I lived my life assuming the worst in my neighbor then I'm going to become a very mean and cynical person, and I don't see how I can live out my vocational calling as a disciple of Jesus Christ by regarding my neighbor with harsh suspicion and judgment rather than compassion and generosity.

"I was hungry, and you did not feed Me" is something Jesus says is so serious that when we stand before Him on the Day of Judgment that this is what is going to matter. "I was a homeless man and you didn't give Me a dollar" is going to be hot coals heaped upon our heads on the Last Day.

The answer, the only answer that I can see, is radical attitude shifts that are rooted in biblical ethics and the "renewing of [our] minds" as Paul says. This is something the modern western Church is going to need to take seriously, especially as wealth disparity grows, as we see the loss of a middle class, the income gap widen, and more people suffering from low income, no income, and poverty. To be a Church that is faithful to Jesus, even when it is inconvenient--especially when it is inconvenient to us.

The Lord have mercy on us.

-CryptoLutheran

I talked to the interim pastor at the Lutheran church today, I thought it was only fair I give a formal "heads up". He heard my complaints, but he encouraged me to get involved in lay leadership. However, the spirituality in this church is pretty far away from where I am at, TBH. I come from Lutheranism via Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was radical in his reinterpretation of Lutheranism. Whereas the spirituality of this church is steeped in the Lutheran confessions. It's very much 1950's style American Lutheranism in alot of ways.

I've been watching Pr. Lars Hammar of Lord of Grace ELCA in Phoenix, and the spirituality he talks about and preaches about seems more consistent with what I think of as a good response to Bonhoeffer. In fact right now he's doing an entire series on Youtube about his "religionless Christianity". He's alot more open to things in his church like Christianity as a vehicle for personal growth, finding God a the center of ones life, rather than at the margins, where human knowledge gives out (the "God of the Gaps" that Bonhoeffer relentlessly attacks in his last writings).

ViaCrucis said:
This sounds like good reasons to support housing-first solutions and free rehabilitation resources.

But I think it's entirely unfair to assume my neighbor is going to use drugs first. When the choice becomes "you could help by doing something" and "doing nothing could harm" then the risk/reward of the situation is such that the potential to help outweighs the possible harm of doing nothing--yes, doing something could also be harmful possibly--but assuming the worst creates a toxic mindset about the vulnerable.

-CryptoLutheran

Homelessness is widespread in Orlando. It's a warm climate, you stand a better chance surviving year round. Also, housing costs are very high relative to wages.

I agree with everything you said. It's really problematic. Unfortunately, the pastor doesn't seem like he's willing to budge much on the issue. I know there's alot of drug use among the homeless down here, but look, there's alot of drug use in general among people on the margins of society, homeless or not. The other day the local UCC pastor was telling me about having to see a young man overdose on fentanyl, and take his body off life support. And he was wasn't homeless. This idea that drug use is only a problem for "those people" is problematic.

ViaCrucis · Mar 15, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
The other day the local UCC pastor was telling me about having to see a young man overdose on fentanyl, and take his body off life support. And he was wasn't homeless. This idea that drug use is only a problem for "those people" is problematic.

Bingo.

At this point I can only think of what St. James writes in his epistle regarding showing favoritism.

-CryptoLutheran

FireDragon76 · Mar 15, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
Bingo.

At this point I can only think of what St. James writes in his epistle regarding showing favoritism.

-CryptoLutheran

My dad works at the Salvation Army and he has more or less the same attitudes as the pastor.

The SA has a very paternalistic attitude towards the homeless and I wonder if that isn't just confirming certain tendencies he already has. Seeing the homeless as people with complex histories seems to be harder than seeing them as charity cases that need paternalism. A legacy of Protestantism, perhaps, but it's something I am not cool with.

Just read the story of "The Little Match Girl" to learn how well Lutheran and Reformed paternalism towards the poor and beggars worked out. The little girl in the story freezes to death because begging is illegal and she is essentially forbidden by law to communicate her need to anyone, instead she's forced to sell a nearly valueless product that gives the illusion that everything is fine. Her menial job, mandated by human-made religious scruples against almsgiving, masks her desperation and her humanity.

IMO, begging is a human right. If wealthy corporations can lobby Congress, poor people should be able to ask you for money.

ViaCrucis · Mar 15, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
My dad works at the Salvation Army and he has more or less the same attitudes as the pastor.

The SA has a very paternalistic attitude towards the homeless and I wonder if that isn't just confirming certain tendencies he already has. Seeing the homeless as people with complex histories seems to be harder than seeing them as charity cases that need paternalism. A legacy of Protestantism, perhaps, but it's something I am not cool with.

Just read the story of "The Little Match Girl" to learn how well Lutheran and Reformed paternalism towards the poor and beggars worked out. The little girl in the story freezes to death because begging is illegal and she is essentially forbidden by law to communicate her need to anyone, instead she's forced to sell a nearly valueless product that gives the illusion that everything is fine. Her menial job, mandated by human-made religious scruples against almsgiving, masks her desperation and her humanity.

IMO, begging is a human right. If wealthy corporations can lobby Congress, poor people should be able to ask you for money.

Without trying to ignite a giant powder keg, my suspicion is that it has more to do with Capitalism than Protestantism. Perhaps just saying that is enough to ignite the powder keg though. It's a culture of perceiving well-to-do-ness and being a product of pure merit and hard work and virtue, and perceiving the less well-to-do as lacking the right virtues to make something of themselves. Turning social position into a matter of personal character rather than a problem endemic and systemic to societal forces which often benefit the few who have and disadvantage the many who have less or not at all.

-CryptoLutheran

Ceallaigh · Mar 15, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
This sounds like good reasons to support housing-first solutions and free rehabilitation resources.

But I think it's entirely unfair to assume my neighbor is going to use drugs first. When the choice becomes "you could help by doing something" and "doing nothing could harm" then the risk/reward of the situation is such that the potential to help outweighs the possible harm of doing nothing--yes, doing something could also be harmful possibly--but assuming the worst creates a toxic mindset about the vulnerable.

-CryptoLutheran

Even the housing a situation has become a problem because those places get trashed to the point where they become health hazards.

I think the best way to give is to local organizations like the Gospel Mission and Volunteers of America. One can easily go the extra mile and volunteer at one of them. In my town between organizations like that, local churches and EBT (electronic food stamps) no one is starving. Lots of times I see abandoned half eaten food laying around.

FireDragon76 · Mar 15, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
Without trying to ignite a giant powder keg, my suspicion is that it has more to do with Capitalism than Protestantism.

They are more or less the same thing, as Max Weber pointed out. Protestantism as a religious ethos is merely the "spirit" of capitalism, at least in the European context.

I think Hans Christian Andersen or Charles Dickens are good examples of how some in the 19th century started to push back against the cold logic of Protestantism, and asked people to see the world through basic, forgotten Christian virtues like compassion for the needy, which had been forgotten during the rationalistic phase of Protestantism.

ViaCrucis said:
Perhaps just saying that is enough to ignite the powder keg though. It's a culture of perceiving well-to-do-ness and being a product of pure merit and hard work and virtue, and perceiving the less well-to-do as lacking the right virtues to make something of themselves.

That's Weber's "Protestant Worth Ethic" focused on meritocracy and the supposed moral hazard of giving to the "indolent poor".

ViaCrucis said:
Turning social position into a matter of personal character rather than a problem endemic and systemic to societal forces which often benefit the few who have and disadvantage the many who have less or not at all.

-CryptoLutheran

It's even more problematic than that- giving is good, whether people deserve it or not. People need to see and participate in concrete acts of kindness, and not just hear about kindness in the abstract, doled out only to the "worthy".

ViaCrucis · Mar 15, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
They are more or less the same thing, as Max Weber pointed out. Protestantism as a religious ethos is merely the "spirit" of capitalism, at least in the European context.

I think Hans Christian Andersen or Charles Dickens are good examples of how some in the 19th century started to push back against the cold logic of Protestantism, and asked people to see the world through basic, forgotten Christian virtues like compassion for the needy, which had been forgotten during the rationalistic phase of Protestantism.

That's Weber's "Protestant Worth Ethic" focused on meritocracy and the supposed moral hazard of giving to the "indolent poor".

It's even more problematic than that- giving is good, whether people deserve it or not. People need to see and participate in concrete acts of kindness, and not just hear about kindness in the abstract, doled out only to the "worthy".

One of my nitpicks (not with what you've said here, but more in the term itself) is that the "Protestant Work Ethic" is probably better described as a "Reformed Work Ethic". It's something I came to appreciate when I heard a Lutheran critique of an apocryphal statement attributed to Luther. So it goes Luther said a Christian shoemaker isn't a Christian shoemaker because he fixes little crosses to the shoes, but because he makes good shoes. The critique of this was that this is a more "Reformed" sentiment, rather than a Lutheran one. The Lutheran sentiment, and truer to Luther's own theology of vocation, is that a Christian shoemaker provides shoes for the shoe-less.

It's not about working hard as a virtue unto itself; but that we live out our Christian lives through vocation, and vocation means inhabiting our neighbor through love. For Luther, the Christian life is constituted in two ways: In Christ by faith, and in neighbor by love. It's one of those things that cuts right through the middle of the Law-Gospel Dialectic, and the Two Kinds of Righteousness.

After all, what is the virtue of labor itself? If I spend all day moving a pile of rocks from one spot to another, and then spend the next day moving a pile of rocks back to the first spot, repeating that every day, is there any virtue in that? Merely being busy isn't righteous. Thus labor must exist to serve an end. And the accumulation of wealth is not a virtue unto itself, on the contrary, the mere accumulation of wealth is a vice. Thus labor and its monetary reward exist to serve a purpose. Labor for labor's sake cannot be called a virtue; but what is virtuous is love, the queen of all virtues.

-CryptoLutheran

FireDragon76 · Mar 15, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
One of my nitpicks (not with what you've said here, but more in the term itself) is that the "Protestant Work Ethic" is probably better described as a "Reformed Work Ethic". It's something I came to appreciate when I heard a Lutheran critique of an apocryphal statement attributed to Luther. So it goes Luther said a Christian shoemaker isn't a Christian shoemaker because he fixes little crosses to the shoes, but because he makes good shoes. The critique of this was that this is a more "Reformed" sentiment, rather than a Lutheran one. The Lutheran sentiment, and truer to Luther's own theology of vocation, is that a Christian shoemaker provides shoes for the shoe-less.

It's not about working hard as a virtue unto itself; but that we live out our Christian lives through vocation, and vocation means inhabiting our neighbor through love. For Luther, the Christian life is constituted in two ways: In Christ by faith, and in neighbor by love. It's one of those things that cuts right through the middle of the Law-Gospel Dialectic, and the Two Kinds of Righteousness.

After all, what is the virtue of labor itself? If I spend all day moving a pile of rocks from one spot to another, and then spend the next day moving a pile of rocks back to the first spot, repeating that every day, is there any virtue in that? Merely being busy isn't righteous. Thus labor must exist to serve an end. And the accumulation of wealth is not a virtue unto itself, on the contrary, the mere accumulation of wealth is a vice. Thus labor and its monetary reward exist to serve a purpose. Labor for labor's sake cannot be called a virtue; but what is virtuous is love, the queen of all virtues.

-CryptoLutheran

So it's less about making meaningless garbage as busywork and more about what St. Therese of Lisieux called her "vocation of love".

I like what you have to say, and I wish more Lutherans could speak with clarity to actual concerns. I talked to the pastor today at the Lutheran church and all he could say about the concept of virtue is that Lutherans are generally allergic to the concept, because Luther was afraid of the idea that you had to earn your way to heaven through virtue.

People like John Vervaeke are arguing, persuasively, I would argue, that virtue plays an important part in peoples meaning-making as human beings. Without virtue, we tend to become self-deceptive. It has less to do with "getting to heaven when you die", and more to do with making sure little Johnny or Jane doesn't grow up to be another tragic drug overdose, fade away into the mental healthcare system, or become a domestic terrorist.

I still think this idea of the Christian life is other-directed has too little to say about the fact that some people just aren't people-pleasing oriented, or thrive in such an environment, and that's usually how "love your neighbor" is articulated. There is a large segment of the population that are introverted, who find a sense of satisfaction through their inner experience. OTOH, there are forms of Catholic, Orthodox, or non-Christian spirituality that can give those sorts of people tools for making sense of their lives, through contemplative spirituality.

ViaCrucis · Mar 15, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
So it's less about making meaningless garbage as busywork and more about what St. Therese of Lisieux called her "vocation of love".

I like what you have to say, and I wish more Lutherans could speak with clarity to actual concerns. I talked to the pastor today at the Lutheran church and all he could say about the concept of virtue is that Lutherans are generally allergic to the concept, because Luther was afraid of the idea that you had to earn your way to heaven through virtue.

People like John Vervaeke are arguing, persuasively, I would argue, that virtue plays an important part in peoples meaning-making as human beings. Without virtue, we tend to become self-deceptive. It has less to do with "getting to heaven when you die", and more to do with making sure little Johnny or Jane doesn't grow up to be another tragic drug overdose, fade away into the mental healthcare system, or become a domestic terrorist.

I still think this idea of the Christian life is other-directed has too little to say about the fact that some people just aren't people-pleasing oriented, or thrive in such an environment, and that's usually how "love your neighbor" is articulated. There is a large segment of the population that are introverted, who find a sense of satisfaction through their inner experience. OTOH, there are forms of Catholic, Orthodox, or non-Christian spirituality that can give those sorts of people tools for making sense of their lives, through contemplative spirituality.

Seems strange that a Lutheran pastor would speak of Lutherans being allergic to the concept of virtue. Luther certainly doesn't seem adverse to talking about it in his own ways. My reading of Luther (which, I suppose to be honest is still pretty limited) tends to showcase a man with two central concerns: The Christian having assurance and confidence on the basis of faith in Christ, and the Christian actually living out their Christian duty.

-CryptoLutheran

FireDragon76 · Mar 15, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
Seems strange that a Lutheran pastor would speak of Lutherans being allergic to the concept of virtue. Luther certainly doesn't seem adverse to talking about it in his own ways. My reading of Luther (which, I suppose to be honest is still pretty limited) tends to showcase a man with two central concerns: The Christian having assurance and confidence on the basis of faith in Christ, and the Christian actually living out their Christian duty.

-CryptoLutheran

I've actually been very interested in the human potential movement. Do you think that is something Lutherans could dialogue with? What are our duties where humanity is at each others throats on board the Titanic: we are all arguing whether there is an iceberg ahead at all, and we've divided up into tribes that see the world in very different ways? Isn't there a virtue or duty in finding a way to transcend the morass?

Also, if Luther wasn't allergic to virtue, why are Lutheran ethics typically expressed in terms of abstract, universal moral duties? This is not how virtue ethics works, generally speaking. I am particularly interested in the concept of "ethics of care", as I believe it closely matches many of the great teachers of human history, such as Confucius, Buddha, and Jesus.... as well as many contemporary feminist ethicists.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 15, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
I don't give huge amounts of money, but I have given enough money to buy food when asked.

Food is good. Clothes can be too. But money might not go to what is most needed by the individual.

FireDragon76 said:
I talked to the local UCC/Congregationalist pastor today and she also agreed she didn't think prohibiting giving money to beggars was something a church should do.

So I think I will have to disaffiliate from my Lutheran congregation. They are binding my conscience contrary to God's will, and it is a serious and grave matter. As John Chrysostom said, "If you do not find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find him in the chalice".

There aren't alot of choices for acceptable churches in my area, in terms of liberal mainline churches. So I may be transferring my membership to the UCC, short of any better local options. I'm not used to all aspects of the spirituality (it's a low church congregation, half the hymns are very unfamiliar, communion is once a month), but there are good people there.

In all of that, you're a step ahead of me.

I walked out of church today

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social troglodyte

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Get my point, Web-Maker ???

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the village i--o--t--

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Confessional Lutheran

Confessional Lutheran

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Confessional Lutheran

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Confessional Lutheran

May God be with you and bless you.

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Confessional Lutheran

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Confessional Lutheran

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Get my point, Web-Maker ???

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