Inseparable - Salvation, Pentecostalism

rocknanchor · Mar 5, 2023

Things have surely slowed for not only this P/AOG forum, but many forums. Seems, if the Lord's 'times of refreshing' doesn't land squarely in a discussion, gathering, or Church culture's lap, interest to repel is ultimately the norm. My opinion, spiritual folly of the hirelings. Seems to be no lack of it.

But what of that lack of savor's fervor? Is the question of the condition of the enduring Church of the Lord Jesus Christ not to be questioned, more holy as somehow taboo? When did we ever stop speaking from the heart?

Yes, the title of this post is in defense of Romans 8:9,

Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Those who have not yet settled it in their minds against the same dirty old carnal secret of viewing the Pentecostal life as "foolishness" are in my view living on borrowed time. A perilous existence isn't the half of it. And hopefully you aren't among those who spew the same talking points of the 'necessity of speaking in tongues' is why you choose to avoid us as outcast.

What an ignorant and incredibly dangerous choice to live by. God gifts us all individually, all in some way ministering by that same Pentecostal life to the needs He chooses. But to castigate your brother as a vain false teaching pulls upon oneself his own condemning limitation.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8)

Thoughts?

Maria Billingsley · Mar 5, 2023

rocknanchor said:
Things have surely slowed for not only this P/AOG forum, but many forums. Seems, if the Lord's 'times of refreshing' doesn't land squarely in a discussion, gathering, or Church culture's lap, interest to repel is ultimately the norm. My opinion, spiritual folly of the hirelings. Seems to be no lack of it.

But what of that lack of savor's fervor? Is the question of the condition of the enduring Church of the Lord Jesus Christ not to be questioned, more holy as somehow taboo? When did we ever stop speaking from the heart?

Yes, the title of this post is in defense of Romans 8:9,

Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Those who have not yet settled it in their minds against the same dirty old carnal secret of viewing the Pentecostal life as "foolishness" are in my view living on borrowed time. A perilous existence isn't the have of it. And hopefully you aren't among those who spew the same talking points of the 'necessity of speaking in tongues' is why you choose to avoid us as outcast.

What an ignorant and incredibly dangerous choice to live by. God gifts us all individually, all in some way ministering by that same Pentecostal life to the needs He chooses. But to castigate your brother as a vain false teaching pulls upon oneself his own condemning limitation.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8)

Thoughts?

I was saved in an AOG congregation but I am no longer a Pentecostal but more of a Charismatic , free from a Denomination. That being said, I too notice a drop in involvement mainly because of the ads, I suppose, lots of complaints about those dominating the forum. Not everyone wants to donate.
Blessings

Pioneer3mm · Mar 5, 2023

I read..comments/posts on P/AOG forum.
---
It seems..the 'Spirit-filled/Charismatic' forum is more active.
- Some Pentecostals participate..on that forum.
---
I like stories..Pentecostal Movement.
- During the early/pioneering days..in the 20th century
---
I was involved in AOG..years ago.

Blade · Mar 5, 2023

Surely, LORD, you bless the righteous; you surround them with your favor as with a shield.

His favor is forever its not based on what we do or don't do.

Not sure many understand how just holy righteous He is and how He can never be apart of confusion or division. Like in any place Church bible study if we make the rules God will not go against our will. I been here 20+ years and it is not like it was so Spirit-filled/Charismatic/Pentecostal/AOG/FOURSQUARE blah blah blah yes praise GOD amen. Now looking back compared to now I would say those spirit filed places are dead compared to the past. See anything God is part of always grows. Why am I here then? Those that ask for prayer. If that was not here I would not be here. The front page reading about faith are we? We are saved by faith through grace we walk by faith we live by faith without it we can never please Him. All I just said is written. So many have no clue how to walk by live by work their faith. Sorry haha getting stuck.

Like that man or not mattes not but Hagin once said you should pray in the spirit one hour each day and read the word one hour each day. AMEN!

rocknanchor · Mar 6, 2023

In respect of the classical understanding of Pentecostalism, "approval" is not swallowed up by Christian liberty. Hagin is one who dealt in-depth but rubbed a certain indecent when weighed according to the text. Then, on the flip side, I have yet to sit in on a discussion over a prophetic message just delivered to be "judged" as in Corinthians.

Techo · Mar 10, 2023

Well... some years back it was decided, in the Pentecostal group I was in, to pause a service whenever there was a message in tongues to see who had an interpretation for that tongue. There was not a lot of that gift within the service from then on and sometimes the person speaking in the tongue also had to be the one to interpret. In that era it was expected that the biblical teaching we had should have matured the congregation enough to identify when a prophesy was off and, with the random type of people who came in those days, we often had to overlook/ignore the words of some 'prophets'.

These days anyone who has a song or a word of prophesy checks it with a the ones leading the meeting and they will put that in order to fit together in the service or, on some occasions, suggest that it be brought at another time. Well... that's how it works where I attend anyway. Church is pretty flexible in the way the meetings are run so anything could happen from week to week but it is always 'decently and in order' 1Co 14:40.

rocknanchor · Mar 11, 2023

Techo said:
Well... some years back it was decided, in the Pentecostal group I was in, to pause a service whenever there was a message in tongues to see who had an interpretation for that tongue. There was not a lot of that gift within the service from then on and sometimes the person speaking in the tongue also had to be the one to interpret. In that era it was expected that the biblical teaching we had should have matured the congregation enough to identify when a prophesy was off and, with the random type of people who came in those days, we often had to overlook/ignore the words of some 'prophets'.

These days anyone who has a song or a word of prophesy checks it with a the ones leading the meeting and they will put that in order to fit together in the service or, on some occasions, suggest that it be brought at another time. Well... that's how it works where I attend anyway. Church is pretty flexible in the way the meetings are run so anything could happen from week to week but it is always 'decently and in order' 1Co 14:40.

Hello 'Techo'! Very similar perspective. Among what I still view as the premiere Pentecostal experience from some years back, multiple AOG meetinghouses thankfully, can't really be placed upon one congregation to be the holdout. Generally, He moved within about the same; 99% of congregants were fed with about 80% of resulting interpretations for each message in tongues given, again, generally.

If I may, refocus for a bit,

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. (1 Corinthians 14:29)

, , point being, current handling just doesn't seem to line up with sufficient clarity for me. For what seems the accepted protocol or, culture of Church Tongues & Interps isn't actively supported by the 99% to any degree, only to agree with it as taught. I suppose oversight could make a habit to invite open dialog, but, my view is that same oversight is altogether too willing to accept that role for itself.

Yes, there has always been the suggestion by some as we have already entered that "falling away" (of His Spirit) to infer 'God no longer inspires the flock this way.' Preposterous! I seem to recall Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit will be with us "to the end of the age.” Else, how will She also not be able to make herself "white" if not?

If I didn't know any better, I suspect the dearness of the unity of the Spirit has run into a stalemate conditioning, so as not to make un-comfortable any possible brainstorming of V-29.

tturt · Mar 11, 2023

"I like stories..Pentecostal Movement.
- During the early/pioneering days..in the 20th century" Pioneer3mm

me, too

Techo · Mar 11, 2023

Seems like the 'falling away' probably refers to a time of the end... or maybe our current period.

2Th 2:2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;
2Th 2:3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.

The words of Jesus probably relate:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Some would use Rom 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" as justification to claim that the Gifts of the Spirit are still to be exercised but, in context, that passage may relate to salvation.

Basically the 'falling away' is due to the attitudes of the world being infiltrated into the Church. People want to mix the ideas and pleasures the world offers with their religious observances. They'll accept into their midst all sorts of practices and label it as inclusiveness. If they are not closely tuned into what God is saying to them, and to the Church, how then are they going to know when He wants to do something... unusual?

One of the ministry at my fellowship was talking with me one day and said that, during discussion at the local Ministers Fraternal on the Gifts of the Spirit, a senior minister commented that "God is not healing in these days!" We are anticipating a revival in the Gifts of the Spirit but I have no idea how that is going to take place or what it is that we are currently lacking for that to occur. Perhaps it is that our love has grown cold.

rocknanchor · Mar 14, 2023

Techo said:
We are anticipating a revival in the Gifts of the Spirit but I have no idea how that is going to take place or what it is that we are currently lacking for that to occur. Perhaps it is that our love has grown cold.

Truly, a fine place to be found in. I have a hunch, God the Father indeed has pulled back due to the missing first works where all wisdom begins; "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom , ," In my view, this current famine for the gifts is due to a lack of that fear. Oh-yes, we'll hear the day-long 'Oh I fear, respect and love God', but how many time I recall hearing comments striving for a glorious closure, 'That is the works of the Devil!' A Pastor told me this once face-to-face. Will God let this treatment be the keepers of the gifts.

If there is rumblings of filled with the Spirit, I'm afraid other fillings are also at hand, as disastrous envy, or, general unwillingness to support those who do well. In other words, to the greater extent, we are not faithful with the little we do have to proceed.

hislegacy · Apr 5, 2023

rocknanchor said:
Things have surely slowed for not only this P/AOG forum, but many forums. Seems, if the Lord's 'times of refreshing' doesn't land squarely in a discussion, gathering, or Church culture's lap, interest to repel is ultimately the norm. My opinion, spiritual folly of the hirelings. Seems to be no lack of it.

But what of that lack of savor's fervor? Is the question of the condition of the enduring Church of the Lord Jesus Christ not to be questioned, more holy as somehow taboo? When did we ever stop speaking from the heart?

Yes, the title of this post is in defense of Romans 8:9,

Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Those who have not yet settled it in their minds against the same dirty old carnal secret of viewing the Pentecostal life as "foolishness" are in my view living on borrowed time. A perilous existence isn't the half of it. And hopefully you aren't among those who spew the same talking points of the 'necessity of speaking in tongues' is why you choose to avoid us as outcast.

What an ignorant and incredibly dangerous choice to live by. God gifts us all individually, all in some way ministering by that same Pentecostal life to the needs He chooses. But to castigate your brother as a vain false teaching pulls upon oneself his own condemning limitation.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8)

Thoughts?

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Clarification please. Are you stating that you believe those not Baptized in the Holy Spirit (Pentecostal) are not saved?

rocknanchor · Apr 5, 2023

hislegacy said:
Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Clarification please. Are you stating that you believe those not Baptized in the Holy Spirit (Pentecostal) are not saved?

Hi! Oh no, not as far as the merits of establishing ourselves in maturity goes. Else, how would those 'carnal babes in Christ' Paul had to re-instruct be numbered with the saints? But more to your point, this is directed at those who wish to marginalize this feature of life in Christ, namely, ALL the gifts of the Spirit.

hislegacy · Apr 5, 2023

rocknanchor said:
Hi! Oh no, not as far as the merits of establishing ourselves in maturity goes. Else, how would those 'carnal babes in Christ' Paul had to re-instruct be numbered with the saints? But more to your point, this is directed at those who wish to marginalize this feature of life in Christ, namely, ALL the gifts of the Spirit.

No offense - but - - what?

I am not fluent in that dialect of Christianese - can you help me out and just state plainly - can a person be saved and not Baptized in the Holy Spirit? Or another question would be - Can a person not operating in the Gifts be an effective minister of the Gospel?

Oseas · Apr 5, 2023

Techo said:
These days anyone who has a song or a word of prophesy checks it with a the ones leading the meeting and they will put that in order to fit together in the service or, on some occasions, suggest that it be brought at another time. Well... that's how it works where I attend anyway. Church is pretty flexible in the way the meetings are run so anything could happen from week to week but it is always 'decently and in order' 1Co 14:40.

Greetings in Christ JESUS

My name is Oseas(Hosea), I'm from Brazil

You said "who has a song or a word of prophesy checks it with a the ones leading the meeting and they will put that in order to fit together in the service ...", so speaking in songs allow me to give a link of a wonderful hymn sung by the Choir of the Assembly of God in São Paulo-Belem neighborhood-Brazil. Sung in Portuguese.

- Ao Pé da Cruz - At the Foot of the Cross

rocknanchor · Apr 6, 2023

hislegacy said:
can a person be saved and not Baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Thanks! Good question and not related to your passage you began with, correct?

hislegacy said:
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His

Common treatment of Pentecostalism is to separate His will of being baptized into Christ and a subsequent Baptism of the Holy Spirit. But I honor ALL PRAYER. For that would require me to prove God doesn't baptize w/the Holy Spirit, informally. I hold He does, formal and informally.

hislegacy · Apr 6, 2023

rocknanchor said:
Thanks! Good question and not related to your passage you began with, correct?

How about a good answer?

And it is directly connected to the passage I began with, which is your verse in context.

There is more than adequate scripture showing that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to Salvation. That is also the position of the Assemblies of God along with most mainline Pentecostal Denominations.

Oseas · Apr 6, 2023

hislegacy said:
I am not fluent in that dialect of Christianese - can you help me out and just state plainly - can a person be saved and not Baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Let me to join the matter bringing here to remembrance a wonderful moment between JESUS and His disciples, after His resurrection, it is written in John 20:19-22ASV, where we can see JESUS breathing on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit*.
Therefore, they received the Holy Spirit before the Pentecost, when by the same Spirit the disciples speak in new tongues as was promised as a signal, among others signs, to accompany them that believe in the preaching of the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom - Mark 16:15-17.

John 20:19-22ASV
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit.

Now unto Him that is able to guard you from stumbling, and to set you before the presence of His glory without blemish in exceeding joy, to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be Glory, Majesty, Dominion and Power, before all time, and now, and for evermore. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

*Spirit - In KJV is written "Ghost" mistenkely or by inadvertence, as whether was another Spirit.

rocknanchor · Apr 6, 2023

hislegacy said:
There is more than adequate scripture showing that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to Salvation.

Got it, such as Acts 19, 'Have you received the Spirit since you believed.' Only proves it can be subsequent, which I don't argue with. But I have yet to see proof God CAN'T consecutively bless. To do so would require placing oneself between repentance unto salvation and baptism with the Holy Ghost and fire, as though God is unable to grant this consecutively.

Is that your position?

hislegacy · Apr 6, 2023

rocknanchor said:
Got it, such as Acts 19, 'Have you received the Spirit since you believed.' Only proves it can be subsequent, which I don't argue with. But I have yet to see proof God CAN'T consecutively bless. To do so would require placing oneself between repentance unto salvation and baptism with the Holy Ghost and fire, as though God is unable to grant this consecutively.

Is that your position?

My current position is one of anticipation for you to answer the question I have repeatedly asked and you seem to be purposely ignoring.

So I find myself patiently waiting, hoping at some point you will respond and then we can continue a conversation. Thank you in advance.

To recap - here are my very simplistic questions:

hislegacy said:
Clarification please. Are you stating that you believe those not Baptized in the Holy Spirit (Pentecostal) are not saved?

hislegacy said:
can you help me out and just state plainly - can a person be saved and not Baptized in the Holy Spirit? Or another question would be - Can a person not operating in the Gifts be an effective minister of the Gospel?

A simple yes or no will suffice -

Oseas · Apr 6, 2023

1 Samuel 10:1 and 5-12

1 Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the Lord hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance?

5 After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy:

6 And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

8 And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.

9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

11 And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?

12 And one of the same place answered and said, But who is their father? Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets?

1 Corinthians 2:6-7
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which GOD ordained before the world unto our glory:

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