Did All Really Sin?

Michael Collum said:

Babies and toddlers are born into a world infected with sin, the materials that make them up come from sinful people. It's not so much about dissing the babies, just expressing a need for them to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

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Babies are born into a sinful world, yes. But they are not born in sin.
If they were, then firstly, Jesus would have been too because he was a human baby; God, yes, but still human. Secondly, any babies who died would go to hell. Even if they only lived for 10 minutes, they would have died before they were able to hear the Gospel and be born again. And thirdly it would mean that God was allowing them to die before they could learn they were sinners, hear about his amazing gift, Romans 6:23, and receive Christ. Then he would be punishing them for not having lived long enough.

God may be perfect but religion isn't.

Michael Collum said:

So it seems that in light of who Jesus says the Father is in the Gospel, the overall concept of what happens is in question.

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How do you mean?

Strong in Him said:

Babies are born into a sinful world, yes. But they are not born in sin.
If they were, then firstly, Jesus would have been too because he was a human baby; God, yes, but still human. Secondly, any babies who died would go to hell. Even if they only lived for 10 minutes, they would have died before they were able to hear the Gospel and be born again. And thirdly it would mean that God was allowing them to die before they could learn they were sinners, hear about his amazing gift, Romans 6:23, and receive Christ. Then he would be punishing them for not having lived long enough.

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Sounds like you are struggling with a issue many people have trouble with. Not just infants but everyone who has never heard the gospel. You are offering a solution. I believe the scripture says we were sinful from birth. The question is are they culpable for their sin ;seeing they cannot do anything about it themselves and the actual solution has never been revealed to them? I have struggled with culpability for many years.
How can a blind, deaf, and dumb person be held culpable for a fate they are helpless to avoid? The old Who song "Christmas" speaks of Tommy, the blind deaf and dumb boy:
"
Did you ever see the faces
Of the children? They get so excited
Waking up on Christmas morning
Hours before the winter sun's ignited
They believe in dreams and all they mean
Including Heaven's generosity
Peeping 'round the door to see
What parcels are for free in curiosity

And Tommy doesn't know what day it is
He doesn't know who Jesus was
Or what praying is
How can he be saved from the eternal grave?"

There is a clue in the words of Jesus: “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”
Others suggest that those who have not heard the gospel will be given a chance in the afterlife. Others suggest that God knows who, amongst those who have not heard, would have believed if had they heard.
I can only believe that God is ultimately fair, just, and merciful. The idea that our God would cast billions of souls into an eternal burning torment is just too much to conceive.

SavedByGrace3 said:

Sounds like you are struggling with a issue many people have trouble with.

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I'm not struggling at all; I know God, who IS love and a perfect heavenly Father.
And that's not for one minute suggesting that others don't. But, to me, because of that, it is all quite simple.

SavedByGrace3 said:

I believe the scripture says we were sinful from birth.

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No, David, who was feeling ashamed of his sin, said that HE was sinful from birth. That's not the same as Scripture teaching that we all are.
The same David who wrote those words also said that God knit us together when we were in the womb, Psalm 139:13. That we are fearfully and wonderfully made, Psalm 139:14. Does God, our perfect God who is love, create sinners? And if he did, why would he ounish them for being sinners, when he had made them that way?

SavedByGrace3 said:

The question is are they culpable for their sin ;

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A 5 minute old baby doesn't even know his parents, never mind God. He hasn't deliberately rebelled against God's word, since he doesn't know what it is. A still born, miscarried or aborted baby has no chance.

SavedByGrace3 said:

I can only believe that God is ultimately fair, just, and merciful. The idea that our God would cast billions of souls into an eternal burning torment is just too much to conceive.

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Exactly.
I don't believe babies go to hell - and I'm pretty sure I didn't say it.

Strong in Him said:

I'm not struggling at all; I know God, who IS love and a perfect heavenly Father.
And that's not for one minute suggesting that others don't. But, to me, because of that, it is all quite simple.


No, David, who was feeling ashamed of his sin, said that HE was sinful from birth. That's not the same as Scripture teaching that we all are.
The same David who wrote those words also said that God knit us together when we were in the womb, Psalm 139:13. That we are fearfully and wonderfully made, Psalm 139:14. Does God, our perfect God who is love, create sinners? And if he did, why would he ounish them for being sinners, when he had made them that way?


A 5 minute old baby doesn't even know his parents, never mind God. He hasn't deliberately rebelled against God's word, since he doesn't know what it is. A still born, miscarried or aborted baby has no chance.

Exactly.
I don't believe babies go to hell - and I'm pretty sure I didn't say it.

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I was speaking hypothetically nothing personal.

Michael Collum said:

Jesus says this long speech about being nice to people who are rude to you as an underlying theme, concluding that be this way, because this is the way the Father is.

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Yes. And he says that if earthly fathers know how to give good things to their children - i.e a fish, and not a snake, when they ask - then how much more will God, who is perfect, also give good things.
My dad wasn't perfect, but there is no way he would have got his wife pregnant and then announced he was going to disown, and punish, the baby when it was born. So I don't believe that God says, "I created this person, planned that they would never know me - and then I'll send them to hell for not knowing me." That is not love - it's not even logical, and it's not kind.

Strong in Him said:

That is not love - it's not even logical, and it's not kind.

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Kindness would be removing the evil within us and destroying it post a life of coming to an understanding how self centerness is evil and putting our will ahead of the will of God is the cause.

Strong in Him said:

And?

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And we are all human just like king David was human. King David is telling mankind that he (a human being) was sinful at conception. Therefore since I'm a human also, I'm going to naturally assume that I was a sinner at conception also, because I'm a regular human being just like David.

I don't know if babies go to Hell. The Bible is silent on that in my opinion. Jesus said, "No one can come to the Father except through me".

And since I'm Pro-Life I believe babies in the womb are someone. The Bible says ALL have sinned. It seems your trying to humanize God. But Isaiah 55:8 says, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.".

God also says, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Romans 9:15

The Bible also says, "....whoever does not believe will be condemned".

Life flows from one being to another, yet we are all the results of one being. So what was in the beginning is now, because that being is still alive and is all of us.

Be aware this whole thread is talking about whether what the Bible says is true or not.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Be aware this whole thread is talking about whether what the Bible says is true or not.

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The Bible, God's word, is truth.
But it may not always be saying what we think it is saying.

I don’t see why you can’t have exceptions. Paul probably wasn’t thinking of infants.

Calvin thought the problem of alienation from God wasn’t specific sins, but the fact that after the Fall our desires and will were corrupt. So it wasn’t the actual sins but the fact that we were sinners. That would also apply to infants. Of course Reformed typically think there are specific Biblical reasons to think that all infants are saved anyway, but by grace, not sinlessness.

I agree with Calvin that our relationship with God is based on our basic direction, not specific sins. I think he forgives those. Indeed I would claim that God neither expects nor requires sinlessness, but loves us because we are his children. So I think we start off saved. At some point some people go wrong, and reject him. That avoids either the problems of damning all infants or having sone specific age where we suddenly have to be Christians or we are damned. It has the advantage that Scripture never teaches oroginsl sin nor requires moral perfection. The most common combination of beliefs makes it look like God is prejudiced against adults.

Michael Collum said:

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I think the subject matter in the pasted image is worth discussing.

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So the bible says All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.

Is there an exception in this "all" as there is with some universalist texts such as "as in Adam all have died, in Christ all will be made alive?"

Did all really sin?

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Rather than assuming that we somehow absolutely HAVE to begin theological study of the nature of Sin with anything that St. Augustine handed off to the Church, I take into consideration how sin likely was seen from various perspectives among Jewish people in the centuries leading up to the 1st century A.D.

So, I'm inclinded to at least lean first toward Judaism's Rejection of Original Sin and let our understanding grow from there.

Furthermore, I also am inclined to let the parasites of modern Biblical Criticism into the overall interpretive project when any of us reads the Bible rather than simply assuming that anything we thing we've intuited in our understanded is necessarily precise, let alone actuall "of" the Holy Spirit.

No, we need to be more careful and perhaps a little less insistent that any of us just absolutely knows and/or has "the final interpretive key" where sin and the Bible are concerned.


The only 'state' in which anyone is, for sure, in life is "not in the Garden ..." We are ALL born into a world of sin, one that has been locked out from God's provision of Eternal Life (i.e. no one has access to the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden), and we each find ourselves at birth in a world of Death even if, when we're born, we're not actually yet sinning ourselves.

I think this whole question of "Are ALL sinners?" misses the boat where our full discernment of the nature of human sin is concerned, probably because we've let St. Augustine and Calvin do too much of our theological chewing for us over the centuries.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Be aware this whole thread is talking about whether what the Bible says is true or not.

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I think most of us here are Bible believers. It is just that people genuinely and sincerely have differences about what some passages mean. Hence there are 4,840,923,405 denominations, and a kajillion books with ideas about what it means.

Supposedly over 45,000 denominations of Christianity around the world



May The LORD Bless You and Keep You



Shalom Aleichem

Lost Witness said:

Supposedly over 45,000 denominations of Christianity around the world

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All according to God's plan and Christ's church.