Towards a biblical view of universalism

Light of the East · Mar 11, 2023

Der Alte said:
1 Corinthians 15:22-23
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
First, read the vs. exactly as it is written, don't move the verbs and subjects around. All mankind is inherently "in Adam" because all mankind are literal descendants of Adam. But all mankind are not inherently "in Christ," that requires an informed, conscious decision in this life.
The very next vs. proves this. Note, "every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;" Then it very clearly says, NOT as UR-ites would have it, "all mankind" but, "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." Only those who already belong to Christ when He returns.

Once again you distort the Scriptures to prove your point.

1 Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (NOW LOOK AT THIS) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Well, no NOT FOR HELLISTS because they insist that the state of death continues forever. In other words, Christ does not destroy death, He does not win a total victory over death, death is not conquered.

What you have done, as usual, is to "prooftext" that which fits your agenda and ignore the larger context of the Scriptures.

Let's sequence this in the CORRECT FASHION.

1. All shall be made alive. All means all because the sequencing of the verbs has NOTHING to do with your imaginary "making a decision for Jaaaayzuz" which you as some form of Protestant imagine has to do with salvation. In fact, if you were really on top of history and scripture, you would be an Orthodox Christian instead of whatever you are. And in Orthodoxy Christianity, Christ is all mankind. That is why salvation is a reality instead of a dream for only certain people. Christ being "all mankind" means that He was able to take upon Himself our nature and heal it, destroying death. Has absolutely nothing to do with the bizarre Protestant idea of "making a decision for Jaaaaazuz."

2. Christ is the "firstfruits" of the Resurrection and Christ's victory over death. That infers a "latter harvest." That latter harvest comes at the coming of Christ.

3. Then what? Those who never heard of Christ, those born out of time or place so as to not hear of Christ, are judged according to their deeds, and are cast into the "smelting furnace" of God's love to be healed. They are in a state of separation from God because of their sins which they have not repented of. During this time, Christ reigns as the "Last Adam" and the Covenant Head over mankind.

THEN cometh the end. The end that you so conveniently ignore when the last enemy is destroyed -- DEATH! Meanwhile, He has been putting all enemies "under His feet." Did you miss that? This is a picture of submission to a King from the Middle Eastern Suzerainty Kingdom Covenants. During this time, which is right now, Christ is King. He is ruling over all because in His death, He entered the house of the "strongman" (Satan), bound the wicked one by His death, and plundered his household. He entered Hades and preached to the souls once disobedient (what? I thought they just went to hell??) and brought all out to begin the Judgment. One by one, His enemies are subdued

UNTIL

the last enemy, death, is overthrown and destroyed.

THEN

4. Christ turns the Kingdom over to the Father so that "God is all in all." God in no way can be "all in all" if all are not in Christ (God) and part of Him.

You torture the Scriptures to make your point rather than looking at the book in entire context. And you posts come across as arrogant, as if a few semesters of Koine Greek makes you on the level of men whom you insult, such as David Bentley Hart, Robin Parry, Brad Jersak, etc.

You couldn't carry their fountain pen. I dare you to challenge David Bentley Hart to a public debate. I would pay good money to watch him hand you your shorts.

Der Alte · Mar 11, 2023

Light of the East said:
Once again you distort the Scriptures to prove your point.

1 Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (NOW LOOK AT THIS) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Well, no NOT FOR HELLISTS because they insist that the state of death continues forever. In other words, Christ does not destroy death, He does not win a total victory over death, death is not conquered.

What you have done, as usual, is to "prooftext" that which fits your agenda and ignore the larger context of the Scriptures.

Let's sequence this in the CORRECT FASHION.

1. All shall be made alive. All means all because the sequencing of the verbs has NOTHING to do with your imaginary "making a decision for Jaaaayzuz" which you as some form of Protestant imagine has to do with salvation. In fact, if you were really on top of history and scripture, you would be an Orthodox Christian instead of whatever you are. And in Orthodoxy Christianity, Christ is all mankind. That is why salvation is a reality instead of a dream for only certain people. Christ being "all mankind" means that He was able to take upon Himself our nature and heal it, destroying death. Has absolutely nothing to do with the bizarre Protestant idea of "making a decision for Jaaaaazuz."

2. Christ is the "firstfruits" of the Resurrection and Christ's victory over death. That infers a "latter harvest." That latter harvest comes at the coming of Christ.

3. Then what? Those who never heard of Christ, those born out of time or place so as to not hear of Christ, are judged according to their deeds, and are cast into the "smelting furnace" of God's love to be healed. They are in a state of separation from God because of their sins which they have not repented of. During this time, Christ reigns as the "Last Adam" and the Covenant Head over mankind.

THEN cometh the end. The end that you so conveniently ignore when the last enemy is destroyed -- DEATH! Meanwhile, He has been putting all enemies "under His feet." Did you miss that? This is a picture of submission to a King from the Middle Eastern Suzerainty Kingdom Covenants. During this time, which is right now, Christ is King. He is ruling over all because in His death, He entered the house of the "strongman" (Satan), bound the wicked one by His death, and plundered his household. He entered Hades and preached to the souls once disobedient (what? I thought they just went to hell??) and brought all out to begin the Judgment. One by one, His enemies are subdued

UNTIL

the last enemy, death, is overthrown and destroyed.

THEN

4. Christ turns the Kingdom over to the Father so that "God is all in all." God in no way can be "all in all" if all are not in Christ (God) and part of Him.

You torture the Scriptures to make your point rather than looking at the book in entire context. And you posts come across as arrogant, as if a few semesters of Koine Greek makes you on the level of men whom you insult, such as David Bentley Hart, Robin Parry, Brad Jersak, etc.

You couldn't carry their fountain pen. I dare you to challenge David Bentley Hart to a public debate. I would pay good money to watch him hand you your shorts.

I have never insulted any of the people you mentioned. I may have interacted with something they said if it was quoted here. Your unsupported opinion of the vss. I quoted are meaningless. You have not refuted anything. As I said that is nothing more than "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!"
The statement "in Adam" and "in Christ" are parallel. Man is not made "in Adam" by death. And man is NOT made "in Christ" by death. Being "in Christ" requires a conscious, informed decision in this life.
1 Cor 15:22 does NOT say as you are trying to force it, "all shall be made alive in Christ." To be made alive the person must already be "in Christ." That is the ONLY way the 2 statements can be parallel exactly as they are written. As I said vs. 23 proves that "every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." Something you have ignored. After the firstfruits NOT all mankind but a certain group "they that are Christ's at his coming." If this was not important why did Paul make a distinction? Why didn't Paul say "afterward all mankind?" Do we just ignore vs. 23? You may but I don't. That clause is there for a reason.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Not “now in Christ,” still far off, not nigh to Jesus.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Not “in Christ,” no redemption.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Not “in Christ” and “walk after the flesh,” still condemned.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Not “in Christ,” the veil is not taken away, they remain blind.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Not “in Christ,” not a new creature, old things are not passed away.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Not “in Christ,” not gathered together in one.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Not “in Christ,” do not obtain salvation or eternal glory.

Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Not “in Jesus Christ” not justified by faith.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Those who are not “in Jesus,” God does not bring with Him.

hedrick · Mar 11, 2023

i checked my commentaries, of which I have several. Several said that he couldn’t mean what he said because of his overall theology. Several referred to Rom 6. But that passage makes an odd argument, which everyone simply ignores. It says that in death everyone is freed from sin. Jesus has died, so those who are in him are freed from sin. But the logic of his argument would say that those who aren’t in Christ are freed from sin when they die. So our advantage is that we are free in this life. Did Paul actually mean this? I don’t know, but it’s what he said.

Perhaps he didn’t mean it so literally. It was only an analogy. But that’s would still say that Christ’s death ended the power of sin. The problem with eternal hell, however, is that Jesus actually hasn’t defeated sin and death. They continue forever. He has only defeated it for a few of us. That’s not Paul’s vision.

I am prepared to accept an argument that before the triumph described in 1 Cor 15, some people are destroyed along with the powers. But a continuing hell contradicts his description of the end.

I think Matthew simply disagrees with Paul. However it’s possible that Matthew accepted one current Jewish view of hell. Hell was eternal punishment, but most or all eventually got out. So I see two possibilities to reconcile them. One is that some go into eternal punishment, but don’t stay there forever. Another is that eternal punishment is actually destructipn. Plenty of NT descriptions talk about destruction or use metaphors for destruction. The typical explanation is that destruction is a way to talk about eternal punishment. But it’s just as reasonable to say that eternal punishment is a way to talk about destruction.

Light of the East · Mar 11, 2023

Der Alte said:
Those who are not “in Jesus,” God does not bring with Him.

So, the millions (billions, perhaps) who never even heard of Christ are doomed to be tortured forever because of an accident of time of birth or place of birth? Through no fault of their own, they are condemned with no hope of ever being remedied.

You are part of what David Bentley Hart calls "The Club." The club is made up of people who have "accepted Jesus" or some other thing that has them in the Christian faith and because of this, they are sure they are "right with God," and that they are going to make heaven. As for the rest of the world - meaaaaah, too bad for them. Those who belong to the club are really quite assured that they are actually in some sense "worthy" of God's love and obtaining eternal life, for they are not wicked and evil sinners like those who have not "accepted Jaaaaaayzuz." This shows that they have no idea of A.) the deep depravity of their own hearts B.) the reality of sin in their lives, and C.) the pride that accompanies them thinking like them.

For these people, the Orthodox idea of prostrations before God during Lent, begging God to have mercy on us unworthy sinners, is anathema. Horrors! Me? A sinner? Well, maybe I do a few bad things, but they aren't all that bad. The Club is really a very merciless place. The Club has many kinds of people in it, from all various kinds of places - even the Orthodox Church. These are the people who gleefully point to others that aren't part of their denomination or religion and look forward to them getting what they richly deserve. They are the Orthodox who condemn all who are not Orthodox to hell, especially Roman Catholics, and the Roman Catholics who do the same. Then you have the Protestants who say that of both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics.

What a fun place The Club is!!! How lovely to smugly sit back and know for sure that you are "God's Buddy" and everyone else, well, maybe not so much.

hedrick · Mar 11, 2023

The usual insult is that universalists are just too softhearted to accept reality. I dont think this is a. Christisn position. But it also ignores the more serious BiblicAl problem. Eternal hell means that God doesn’t defeat sin and death.

Light of the East · Mar 11, 2023

i checked my commentaries, of which I have several. Several said that he couldn’t mean what he said because of his overall theology. Several referred to Rom 6. But that passage makes an odd argument, which everyone simply ignores. It says that in death everyone is freed from sin. Jesus has died, so those who are in him are freed from sin. But the logic of his argument would say that those who aren’t in Christ are freed from sin when they die. So our advantage is that we are free in this life. Did Paul actually mean this? I don’t know, but it’s what he said.

Perhaps he didn’t mean it so literally. It was only an analogy. But that’s would still say that Christ’s death ended the power of sin. The problem with eternal hell, however, is that Jesus actually hasn’t defeated sin and death. They continue forever. He has only defeated it for a few of us. That’s not Paul’s vision.

I am prepared to accept an argument that before the triumph described in 1 Cor 15, some people are destroyed along with the powers. But a continuing hell contradicts his description of the end.

I think Matthew simply disagrees with Paul. However, it’s possible that Matthew accepted one current Jewish view of hell. Hell was eternal punishment, but most or all eventually got out. So, I see two possibilities to reconcile them. One is that some go into eternal punishment, but don’t stay there forever. Another is that eternal punishment is actually destruction. Plenty of NT descriptions talk about destruction or use metaphors for destruction. The typical explanation is that destruction is a way to talk about eternal punishment. But it’s just as reasonable to say that eternal punishment is a way to talk about destruction.

What is so hard to understand about this? Death is separation from God. If separation from God continues forever, then death is not defeated, is it?

As an Orthodox believer, I am especially appalled at Orthodox people who loudly sing "Christ is risen from the dead, by death He conquered death . . ." at Pascha, out of one side of their mouth, and out the other side they insist that there is an eternal state of death.

Talk about schizophrenic!!!

Der Alte · Mar 11, 2023

Light of the East said:
So, the millions (billions, perhaps) who never even heard of Christ are doomed to be tortured forever because of an accident of time of birth or place of birth? Through no fault of their own, they are condemned with no hope of ever being remedied.

You are part of what David Bentley Hart calls "The Club." The club is made up of people who have "accepted Jesus" or some other thing that has them in the Christian faith and because of this, they are sure they are "right with God," and that they are going to make heaven. As for the rest of the world - meaaaaah, too bad for them. Those who belong to the club are really quite assured that they are actually in some sense "worthy" of God's love and obtaining eternal life, for they are not wicked and evil sinners like those who have not "accepted Jaaaaaayzuz." This shows that they have no idea of A.) the deep depravity of their own hearts B.) the reality of sin in their lives, and C.) the pride that accompanies them thinking like them.

For these people, the Orthodox idea of prostrations before God during Lent, begging God to have mercy on us unworthy sinners, is anathema. Horrors! Me? A sinner? Well, maybe I do a few bad things, but they aren't all that bad. The Club is really a very merciless place. The Club has many kinds of people in it, from all various kinds of places - even the Orthodox Church. These are the people who gleefully point to others that aren't part of their denomination or religion and look forward to them getting what they richly deserve. They are the Orthodox who condemn all who are not Orthodox to hell, especially Roman Catholics, and the Roman Catholics who do the same. Then you have the Protestants who say that of both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics.

What a fun place The Club is!!! How lovely to smugly sit back and know for sure that you are "God's Buddy" and everyone else, well, maybe not so much.

I feel immensely sorry for you. I quoted 10 vss. of scripture and you respond with insults and holding up David Bentley Hart as if his opinions are equal or superior to scripture.
Here is a link to one of my posts where I showed that Ilaria Ramelli lied about Origen.

Would God Really Send Someone to Hell?

We are not to conform to the world’s standards. Whassat got to do with the accuracy of a translation? The world says 2+2=4, should we reject that fo the sake of nonconformity?

www.christianforums.com

Der Alte · Mar 11, 2023

hedrick said:
The usual insult is that universalists are just too softhearted to accept reality. I dont think this is a. Christisn position. But it also ignores the more serious BiblicAl problem. Eternal hell means that God doesn’t defeat sin and death.

Defeating death does NOT mean that all the dead return to life, it means living people no longer experience death. I guess Jesus was wrong about "eternal punishment?"

hedrick · Mar 11, 2023

Der Alte said:
I feel immensely sorry for you. I quoted 10 vss. of scripture and you respond with insults and holding up David Bentley Hart as if his opinions are equal or superior to scripture.
Here is a link to one of my posts where I showed that Ilaria Ramelli lied about Origen.

Would God Really Send Someone to Hell?

We are not to conform to the world’s standards. Whassat got to do with the accuracy of a translation? The world says 2+2=4, should we reject that fo the sake of nonconformity?

www.christianforums.com

I don’t see any significant difference between her quote and your version. Both talk about going beyond eternal life, which was her point.

hedrick · Mar 11, 2023

Der Alte said:
Defeating death does NOT mean that all the dead return to life, it means living people no longer experience death. I guess Jesus was wrong about "eternal punishment?"

Obviously the end of history means no more people die. A general nuclear war could do that. That’s not what anyone means by triumph over death. I’ve already responded on eternal punishment.

Light of the East · Mar 11, 2023

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Not “now in Christ,” still far off, not nigh to Jesus.

This is speaking of the present time, not of the future. Doesn't mean that sometime in the future, even after death, God will not have a way to bring them into Christ. You are reading into the text what you wish to say. No proof of eternal hell here.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Not “in Christ,” no redemption.

Wrong. Redemption is for all people. As I said above, some get it now, some get it later and in a much more painful manner, the fiery furnace of God's smelting out all their sins and purifying them (1 Corinthians 3: 12-15)

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Not “in Christ” and “walk after the flesh,” still condemned.

Condemned to what? To burn in eternity at the hands of a vengeful and sadistic God who is like the pagan "gods" who demanded blood sacrifice and the burning of the infant children of the Israelites? Again, you read into the verse what you wish to see without considering the overall view of the Bible.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Not “in Christ,” the veil is not taken away, they remain blind.

That doesn't mean that eternal, conscious torment is real. It means that they are in danger of going through the judgment of their sins, which is to come. Once again, dragging verses out of context of the whole and making them say what you wish them to say.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Not “in Christ,” not a new creature, old things are not passed away.

Doesn't prove eternal hell.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Not “in Christ,” not gathered together in one.

You read according to your own desires. "I have gathered together all eggs in one basket." You would read that as saying, "I have gathered together in one all things that are in one basket." You change the very meaning of the words to suit your fancy. And you dishonestly skipped the other verses around vs 10. Ephesians 1: 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

What is the good pleasure of his will? That billions go to hell and remain in torment forever? Not according to 1 Timothy 2:4, which says that His will is that all be saved and brought to the knowledge of God. It is God's good pleasure that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He gather together all things (including all human beings) in Christ, just like a man gathering together all eggs and putting them in one basket. We are the eggs and Christ is the basket. He is not gathering together all the eggs that are only in the basket of Christ, but all eggs, all poor sinners.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Not “in Christ,” do not obtain salvation or eternal glory.

Contradicts numerous other scriptures which speak of the will of God to save all, that all are saved in Christ just as all were lost in Adam.

Galatians 2:16

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Not “in Jesus Christ” not justified by faith.

You are not justified by "faith alone" contrary to your Protestant beliefs. You are justified by faith and works, according to James. You continue to read through "presuppositional lenses" which prove to you what you wish to believe.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Those who are not “in Jesus,” God does not bring with Him.

Then God lied because Romans 5 teaches something entirely different than what you are proposing, that only the dead "in Christ" will be resurrected.

drewcosten · Mar 11, 2023

The proponents of universalism admit very readily that their doctrine conflicts with much biblical teaching.

What? Where do you get that idea from? Here’s a study of the topic of the salvation of all which supports the view that’s based 100% on exegesis of Scripture alone: What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation

hedrick · Mar 11, 2023

Der Alte said:
[1 Cor 15:22, I think] The statement "in Adam" and "in Christ" are parallel. Man is not made "in Adam" by death. And man is NOT made "in Christ" by death. Being "in Christ" requires a conscious, informed decision in this life.

No, they're in Adam by birth. I agree that being in Christ requires a decision. Note that there's not a precise parallelism. being made alive in Christ is future. Paul seems to consider that humanity is in bondage to the rulers, authorities and powers. Being in Christ for some occurs only after they are destroyed. It's possible that some humans are destroyed by that time, but at least the remaining ones, being no longer under the powers, will recognize Christ.

Der Alte said:
1 Cor 15:22 does NOT say as you are trying to force it, "all shall be made alive in Christ."

Huh? You've just quoted what it says. King James and some other translations say "in Christ shall all be made alive", but the difference is one of English word order, not meaning. No translation I'm aware of says "those who are in Christ are made alive," which seems to be what you want.

Der Alte said:
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Not “now in Christ,” still far off, not nigh to Jesus.

Everyone being in Christ is future. Christians being in Christ is now. This is speaking about now.

Der Alte said:
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Not “in Christ,” no redemption.

Not currently in Christ, not currently justified.

Der Alte said:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Not “in Christ” and “walk after the flesh,” still condemned.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
Not “in Christ,” the veil is not taken away, they remain blind.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Not “in Christ,” not a new creature, old things are not passed away.

ditto

Der Alte said:
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Not “in Christ,” not gathered together in one.

This is a weird misreading. This is disclosing the mystery of God's long-term plan, in which he will gather up all things to him.

Der Alte said:
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Not “in Christ,” do not obtain salvation or eternal glory.

again, this is speaking of events now, not the future vision of 1 Cor 15.

Der Alte said:
Galatians 2:16

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Not “in Jesus Christ” not justified by faith.

Right. Again, this says nothing about his future plan to bring all to Christ.

Der Alte said:
1 Thessalonians 4:14

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Those who are not “in Jesus,” God does not bring with Him.

There's a major translational issue here. Here's the text

εἰ γὰρ πιστεύομεν ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἀπέθανεν καὶ ἀνέστη, οὕτως καὶ ὁ θεὸς τοὺς κοιμηθέντας διὰ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἄξει σὺν αὐτῷ.

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so even God those who have died through Jesus will bring with him

There seem to be two major translations

KJ: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him
NRSVue: For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died

In any case the English word order isn't the same as Greek, because God is separated from the last phrase, of which he is the subject. The question is the break between phrases. Is it "those who have died through Jesus" and "[God] will bring with him" or "those who have died "through Jesus [God] will bring with him."

Commentaries and translations differ. The Word Commentary has the first alternative, which results in something I think is a bit odd:
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also God will bring (back) with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus."
What I find odd is "through Jesus" in this context.

Boring's commentary has "For since we believe that Jesus died and rose, we thus believe that God, acting through Jesus, will bring those who have fallen asleep to be together with him." He notes "Syntactically, the prepositional phrase dia Iēsou (through Jesus) could modify either “bring” or “fallen asleep.” The latter option seems to balance the sentence better, but to “fall asleep through Jesus” is a peculiar though possible idiom (presumably meaning the same as “the dead in Christ”; cf. v. 16, and the ET of v. 14 in kjv, asv, njb, niv, tev, cev, ceb). The translation above takes the first option, understanding the meaning to be that God is the ultimate director of the eschatological scenario, who acts through Jesus to raise the dead believers. The second option has been ably defended by some modern interpreters."

Witherington prefers "fall asleep through Jesus".

I'm not sure it matters for these purposes, since the discussion is specifically about Christians who have died.

Der Alte · Mar 11, 2023

hedrick said:
No, they're in Adam by birth. I agree that being in Christ requires a decision. Note that there's not a precise parallelism. being made alive in Christ is future. Paul seems to consider that humanity is in bondage to the rulers, authorities and powers. Being in Christ for some occurs only after they are destroyed. It's possible that some humans are destroyed by that time, but at least the remaining ones, being no longer under the powers, will recognize Christ.
Huh? You've just quoted what it says. King James and some other translations say "in Christ shall all be made alive", but the difference is one of English word order, not meaning. No translation I'm aware of says "those who are in Christ are made alive," which seems to be what you want.
Everyone being in Christ is future. Christians being in Christ is now. This is speaking about now.
Not currently in Christ, not currently justified.
ditto
This is a weird misreading. This is disclosing the mystery of God's long-term plan, in which he will gather up all things to him.
again, this is speaking of events now, not the future vision of 1 Cor 15.
Right. Again, this says nothing about his future plan to bring all to Christ.
There's a major translational issue here. Here's the text
εἰ γὰρ πιστεύομεν ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἀπέθανεν καὶ ἀνέστη, οὕτως καὶ ὁ θεὸς τοὺς κοιμηθέντας διὰ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἄξει σὺν αὐτῷ.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so even God those who have died through Jesus will bring with him
There seem to be two major translations
KJ: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him
NRSVue: For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died
In any case the English word order isn't the same as Greek, because God is separated from the last phrase, of which he is the subject. The question is the break between phrases. Is it "those who have died through Jesus" and "[God] will bring with him" or "those who have died "through Jesus [God] will bring with him."
Commentaries and translations differ. The Word Commentary has the first alternative, which results in something I think is a bit odd:
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also God will bring (back) with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus."
What I find odd is "through Jesus" in this context.
***

"Note that there's not a precise parallelism. being made alive in Christ is future." vs.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

"Being in Christ for some occurs only after they are destroyed." Scripture please?
"It's possible that some humans are destroyed by that time, but at least the remaining ones, being no longer under the powers, will recognize Christ." Lovely thought. Scripture please.

JPS Proverbs 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
1 Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Proverbs 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

====

1 Thessalonians 4:14
(14) For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible has "in Jesus."

https://ia802306.us.archive.org/25/items/new-testament-the-eastern-greek-orthodox-bible/New%20Testament%20%28The%20Eastern%20Greek%20Orthodox%20Bible%29.pdf

Chaleb · Mar 18, 2023

Michie said:
‘There are two Biblical ways of looking at salvation. One says that only Christian believers will be saved: the other says that all men will be saved.

All who call on the name of Jesus shall be saved.

This is "Faith is counted as Righteousness".

This is.. Jesus, who said...>"All that believe in me, i give unto them Eternal Life (Salvation) and they shall never perish".

Who is the "All"?

Its the "world".......In John 3:16

Its the "ALL". in .... John 12:32

Find it also here. 2 Corinthians 5:19

Calvinism, denies those verses, and is an enemy of the Cross.

Der Alte · Mar 18, 2023

Chaleb said:
All who call on the name of Jesus shall be saved.
This is "Faith is counted as Righteousness".
This is.. Jesus, who said...>"All that believe in me, i give unto them Eternal Life (Salvation) and they shall never perish".
Who is the "All"?
Its the "world".......In John 3:16
Its the "ALL". in .... John 12:32
Find it also here. 2 Corinthians 5:19
Calvinism, denies those verses, and is an enemy of the Cross.

Salvation is available to ALL but ALL will not take advantage of it. Neither the Father nor Jesus ever said that all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death as some folks claim. As a matter of fact Jesus said not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus said "in that day," i.e. Judgement day, "many" not a few, will say to me Lord, Lord, have we not ...in thy name done many wonderful works? Then Jesus will say to those many "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." When Jesus says never He means never not some day by an by.

Chaleb · Mar 18, 2023

Der Alte said:
Salvation is available to ALL but ALL will not take advantage of it.

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

"ALL who call on the name of Jesus shall be saved"

If you don't, and you die, you are this...... John 3:36

Also, The will of God, is that "you believe on Jesus Whom God sent".

= "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".

Chaleb · Mar 18, 2023

Der Alte said:
Salvation is available to ALL but ALL will not take advantage of it.

Calvinism, this cult teaching, denies that "Salvation is available to all", which denies the Cross of Christ.
To be "anti-Cross" is to be "anti-Christ".

Der Alte · Mar 18, 2023

Chaleb said:
"ALL who call on the name of Jesus shall be saved"
If you don't, and you die, you are this...... John 3:36
Also, The will of God, is that "you believe on Jesus Whom God sent".
= "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".

From your posts I am aware of your beliefs, my post was mainly for those who labor under the misconception that everyone will be saved, even after death.

Der Alte · Mar 18, 2023

Chaleb said:
Calvinism, this cult teaching, denies that "Salvation is available to all", which denies the Cross of Christ.
To be "anti-Cross" is to be "anti-Christ".

I'm sure that it is evident from my posts that I am not a Calvinist.

Towards a biblical view of universalism

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