Losing their religion: why US churches are on the decline

dzheremi · Feb 24, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
And how is it that what I've posted prior above (in response to FireDragon) has now been summarily intercepted and scrutinized without an apparent shred of Hermeneutics which someone like of Jens Zimmermann or Christian Smith or Merold Westphal or Myron Bradley Penner would have no problem applying to what I've posted?

Probably because I don't know who any of those people are.

Sorry for 'intercepting' your post. Maybe when it's not appropriate that anyone but the person you are writing in response to comment on what you've presented, it should be a PM to that person directly. All kinds of people are writing and bouncing ideas off of each other based on whatever is presented here. I was not aware that this was not allowed with regard to your post to FireDragon76 in particular.

2PhiloVoid said:
Does it make any difference to you in your 'Orthodox' perception that I've honed in on the moment of revelation that transpired between Peter and Jesus (and the Father)? Sure, we all know that demons believe too, but my example was specifically the one referring to Peter (or those which, in one form or another, may be similar to his). Or, do you just assume that I, for whatever reason, couldn't possible be more nuanced and/or precise in what I reference and as to why I reference what I do?

Alright. You seem kinda mad and to have taken my post as some kind of slight against you for reasons I cannot even begin to imagine, so I'm just going to avoid interacting with you or anything you post now. Take care.

2PhiloVoid · Feb 24, 2023

dzheremi said:
Probably because I don't know who any of those people are.

Sorry for 'intercepting' your post. Maybe when it's not appropriate that anyone but the person you are writing in response to comment on what you've presented, it should be a PM to that person directly. All kinds of people are writing and bouncing ideas off of each other based on whatever is presented here. I was not aware that this was not allowed with regard to your post to FireDragon76 in particular.

Alright. You seem kinda mad and to have taken my post as some kind of slight against you for reasons I cannot even begin to imagine, so I'm just going to avoid interacting with you or anything you post now. Take care.

My apologies. I'm so used to being slighted in much of what I say that it's difficult to tell sometimes when I'm merely being marginally critiqued from an implied insult.

... since you've offered clarification of your intent, I'll assume you've simply intended to offer a mild critique and/or comment.

Be blessed!

FireDragon76 · Feb 26, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
I take Christianity on an individual basis, not a denominational basis.

I'm not an individualist.

2PhiloVoid said:
I think that's one difference between me and you in this generic level of assessment about Protestants. Sure, we can all go to Pew Research and to various professional journals for the latest "stats" on this or that trend we'll find among Protestant groups (or any others for that matter), but in the shape of your question, it almost feels like you're more than willing to just lump all Protestants together.

Most of them are lumped together under a generic cultural Christianity, especially as denominational distinctives have declined.

2PhiloVoid · Feb 26, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
I'm not an individualist.

And I'm not a collectivist, FD. But then too, in my referring to individualism, I'm not speaking of the typical sort that emanates from a thorough subscription to American Civil Culture. And my individualism doesn't prevent me from identifying as a sort of Communitarian.

FireDragon76 said:
Most of them are lumped together under a generic cultural Christianity, especially as denominational distinctives have declined.

Sure. Just keep in mind that neither of us is, per say, "Protestant."

Aussie Pete · Mar 7, 2023

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Breakdown of religious community and the standards, combined with social atomization and a thoroughly secular state education from the age of 5 to 18 are the perfect ingredients to cause a decline in faith.

Most importantly, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. (2 Peter 3:3)

Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron.… (1 Timothy 4:1 & 2)

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (John 7:7)

Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed], (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

Thomas White · Mar 11, 2023

Sir Robbins said:
Losing their religion: why US churches are on the decline

As the US adjusts to an increasingly non-religious population, thousands of churches are closing each year – probably accelerated by Covid

www.yahoo.com

I'm sure this is nothing new to many of you but their claim of thousands a year seems a bit exaggerated but they are spot on the money with younger generations just not even bothering with attending and it seems to be having quite an effect. Will those laws in the USA pursuaded by Christianity all fall in the coming years as the old timers die off in the government? I seem to think it will happen. Disturbing trends are spreading across the country. Ministry has long since been seen as a global outreach program but I feel they need to look closer inside our borders now too as so many walk away or turn the other shoulder in these "minister's" own backyards.

WE are the reason the Church is in decline.

FireDragon76 · Mar 11, 2023

Thomas White said:
WE are the reason the Church is in decline.

With the precipitous decline of Evangelicalism as a sociopolitical force, there is a possibility to change the perception of "religion" in the US.

SamInNi · Mar 12, 2023

Materialism wrapped up in institutionalised religiosity, celebrated atheism and moral chaos is the motivational force behind western apathy, especially among young adults.

The closure of official church buildings doesn’t take into account the many genuine believers who regularly meet elsewhere, homes for example. Maintaining property is increasingly expensive. This hard fact is bound to play a part in many closures in recent years where church members are entirely working class.

Set against this decline is the significant growth of fluffy, liberal theology. A less Bible-centred approach to theology promotes all-inclusive beliefs that encourage popularity and attendance. But many would point out that “smooth things” never rock the boat!

ZephBonkerer · Jun 28, 2023

d taylor said:
Also letting science dictate a teaching on God's creation can also be a factor. The turning the church into a social society and political machine has also affected its membership.

Two thoughts on this - hopefully I'm not being pedantic:

True science will not contradict what we know to be true through God's written word. Science is inherently limited to what can be observed empirically, so naturally any answers dealing with the supernatural will be beyond the scope of what science can answer. This doesn't mean science isn't useful - only that it has limits. It is perfectly fair and reasonable to be up front with these limitations. What is not fair nor reasonable is to insist that "There is no Number Five" and then ponder the question of what's two plus three.

As for the church as a subculture, I have misgivings about that too. Someone on the outside looking in might see the "Church" as a collection of people who gather at some building every Sunday morning, sing songs, listen to some guy talk for an hour, listen to K-Love / Air1, and wear NotW t-shirts. I myself do not fit into that subculture, and that could have been a serious problem for me entering into a personal relationship with Jesus had I not have done so at age 23.

I fear for those who don't understand that a real personal relationship with Jesus is not some subculture. These days it seems many Christians have few friends outside Church - their whole social life revolves outside Church, and they are rarely seen in a social gathering apart from their immediate families. I myself did this for a time. But I saw thing very differently once circumstances forced my hand - and I ended up developing a strong social circle outside Church, largely out of necessity.

d taylor · Jun 28, 2023

ZephBonkerer said:
Two thoughts on this - hopefully I'm not being pedantic:

True science will not contradict what we know to be true through God's written word. Science is inherently limited to what can be observed empirically, so naturally any answers dealing with the supernatural will be beyond the scope of what science can answer. This doesn't mean science isn't useful - only that it has limits. It is perfectly fair and reasonable to be up front with these limitations. What is not fair nor reasonable is to insist that "There is no Number Five" and then ponder the question of what's two plus three.

As for the church as a subculture, I have misgivings about that too. Someone on the outside looking in might see the "Church" as a collection of people who gather at some building every Sunday morning, sing songs, listen to some guy talk for an hour, listen to K-Love / Air1, and wear NotW t-shirts. I myself do not fit into that subculture, and that could have been a serious problem for me entering into a personal relationship with Jesus had I not have done so at age 23.

I fear for those who don't understand that a real personal relationship with Jesus is not some subculture. These days it seems many Christians have few friends outside Church - their whole social life revolves outside Church, and they are rarely seen in a social gathering apart from their immediate families. I myself did this for a time. But I saw thing very differently once circumstances forced my hand - and I ended up developing a strong social circle outside Church, largely out of necessity.

The problem lies in that The Bible is not allowed to decide what is true science. Only science (or the men of science) is allow to decide what they deem is true science. Again this is in the context of addressing creation and the not science/math,etc.. used in building bridges or any other working and useful construction.

Handmaid for Jesus · Jun 28, 2023

ZephBonkerer said:
Two thoughts on this - hopefully I'm not being pedantic:

True science will not contradict what we know to be true through God's written word. Science is inherently limited to what can be observed empirically, so naturally any answers dealing with the supernatural will be beyond the scope of what science can answer. This doesn't mean science isn't useful - only that it has limits. It is perfectly fair and reasonable to be up front with these limitations. What is not fair nor reasonable is to insist that "There is no Number Five" and then ponder the question of what's two plus three.

As for the church as a subculture, I have misgivings about that too. Someone on the outside looking in might see the "Church" as a collection of people who gather at some building every Sunday morning, sing songs, listen to some guy talk for an hour, listen to K-Love / Air1, and wear NotW t-shirts. I myself do not fit into that subculture, and that could have been a serious problem for me entering into a personal relationship with Jesus had I not have done so at age 23.

I fear for those who don't understand that a real personal relationship with Jesus is not some subculture. These days it seems many Christians have few friends outside Church - their whole social life revolves outside Church, and they are rarely seen in a social gathering apart from their immediate families. I myself did this for a time. But I saw thing very differently once circumstances forced my hand - and I ended up developing a strong social circle outside Church, largely out of necessity.

I have said many times that science was the study of how God did things.The problem with mankind is people get a little bit of knowledge, a little bit of understanding and they get puffed up with the yeast of knowledge never acknowledging the truth.
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Remember the parable that Lord Jesus told of the wheat and the tares? This what we see happening in the Church, but you need the discernment of the Holy Spirit to understand that some in the Church are wheat, and some are tares. That is why it looks like some are leaving the faith.

ZephBonkerer · Jun 28, 2023

d taylor said:
The problem lies in that The Bible is not allowed to decide what is true science. Only science (or the men of science) is allow to decide what they deem is true science. Again this is in the context of addressing creation and the not science/math,etc.. used in building bridges or any other working and useful construction.

When someone is clinging to some narrative despite mounting evidence to the contrary, that's a moral problem, not an intellectual problem. The atheists will often seek to control the terms of the debate, but that doesn't mean we have to accept them. Truth is truth no matter how it is revealed.

In general, there is no evidence supporting the existence of God that an adamant atheist will credit. By the way, these atheists often have a lot of stuff to say about this God that supposedly does not exist. They have their story and they're sticking to it come heck or high water.

There are some atheists that enter the field of scientific study with the express intent to disprove the existence of God. This is why you have so many of them support the Theory of Evolution despite its serious flaws.

I used to get into the whole creation vs evolution debate with atheists, but no longer. The arguments haven't changed. Interestingly, what I believe to be the most damning evidence against the theory of evolution is not often expressed, and is probably something I could not express on this forum. Hint: it deals with sexual reproduction.

Another point with debates: when you have won a debate, there is no scorekeeper, no trophy, no ticker tape parade. And most importantly, no one is going to say you won. You'll have to realize when you have won and keep it at that. Contrast that with the Super Bowl: everyone knows the 1985 Chicago Bears beat the New England Patriots that year - not even the Patriots themselves deny that.

Fantine · Jun 28, 2023

Many people struggle to believe the metaphors and platitudes of a faraway culture whose environment and knowledge were primitive.
That is why scientists like Jesuit Pierre de Chardin sought to reconcile and reimagine the spiritual truths of the Bible with our ever expanding body of scientific knowledge.
God is truth and science is truth and both are good.
We can appreciate and reverence the Bible even more when we are not expected to adopt the posture of a Palestinian Shepherd to believe it.

GenemZ · Jul 1, 2023

Thomas White said:
WE are the reason the Church is in decline.

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3

The more that kind of spiritual decay grabs hold in a nation?
The closer that nation gets to God destroying it's power. They stop being "salt."

“You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted?
It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trampled under foot of men." Mat 5:13

"Salt" was seen as a preservative back then..

grace and peace......

Handmaid for Jesus · Jul 2, 2023

GenemZ said:
For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3

The more that kind of spiritual decay grabs hold in a nation?
The closer that nation gets to God destroying it's power. They stop being "salt."

“You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted?
It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trampled under foot of men." Mat 5:13

"Salt" was seen as a preservative back then..

grace and peace......

In the third chapter of Revelation there are seven churches revealed. All of them except two had something lacking.

GenemZ · Jul 2, 2023

Handmaid for Jesus said:
In the third chapter of Revelation there are seven churches revealed. All of them except two had something lacking.

And, while the church was rapidly growing in Rome and spreading with lots of sound doctrine (for Satan was still learning the new teachings as to find ways to distort and seduce away believers) the Roman empire went into an age what a good number of excellent historians refer to as the age they wished they could have lived in. Rome saw little warfare. Women were being treated by far superior to before Christianity spread...

To 180 AD this era lasted. Called the age of the Antonine Caesars.
Much salt was yet being produced in the church to bless their nation.

Then, 2 Timothy 4:3 began to take its effect.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Paul was warning Timothy of what was to come on the horizon. In the mean while Satan was figuring out teachings that would appeal the emotions of believers as to dumb them down. Believers who live by their emotions were being a problem from the beginning. They could not tolerate sound doctrinal teachings. So teachings to seduce them were still being developed... as we see with apostate Christians today.

grace and peace ...............

FireDragon76 · Jul 3, 2023

Fantine said:
Many people struggle to believe the metaphors and platitudes of a faraway culture whose environment and knowledge were primitive.
That is why scientists like Jesuit Pierre de Chardin sought to reconcile and reimagine the spiritual truths of the Bible with our ever expanding body of scientific knowledge.
God is truth and science is truth and both are good.
We can appreciate and reverence the Bible even more when we are not expected to adopt the posture of a Palestinian Shepherd to believe it.

Teilhard de Chardin, along with Whitehead, is probably among the most underrated of modern theologians. Mostly they were bypassed because their message cannot be instrumentalized into a tool of manipulation and coercion.

GenemZ · Jul 3, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Teilhard de Chardin, along with Whitehead, is probably among the most underrated of modern theologians. Mostly they were bypassed because their message cannot be instrumentalized into a tool of manipulation and coercion.

What is Teilhard de Chardin known for?

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, (born May 1, 1881, Sarcenat, France—died April 10, 1955, New York City, New York, U.S.), French philosopher and paleontologist known for his theory that man is evolving, mentally and socially, toward a final spiritual unity." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin | French Philosopher, Paleontologist, Jesuit Priest

So... the concept of God is the result of an ongoing evolutionary delusion?

SavedByGrace3 · Jul 3, 2023

I don't think Christians are departing... just the tares.
John explains the process pretty well:

1 John 2:18-19 KJV
18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,
even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us,
they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be
made manifest that they were not all of us.

GenemZ · Jul 3, 2023

Handmaid for Jesus said:
In the third chapter of Revelation there are seven churches revealed. All of them except two had something lacking.

All it would have taken in Sodom to spare them would have been 10 righteous out all all of the many living in the city.

God is not looking for high numbers to secure a nation.

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