Near death experiences—Can we learn anything from them?

Derf · Oct 16, 2021

Der Alte said:
Second hand quote from an anonymous website claiming to quote Bullinger. This website does not identify the publication which they claim to be quoting; title, publication date, page number etc.
OTOH I quoted directly from Bullinger and even provided a link to the source proper.
Unless a saying has something unknown/not understood compared to something known it is not a parable. It may be some other figure of speech but without a comparison it is not a parable. I could do with a little less snide.
Edit to add: I read some in the article. Since a specific writing by Bullinger is not stated I think the manager of the website wrote this himself and attributes it to Bullinger to give it some credibilty.

Of course, it’s good to be skeptical of something that doesn’t fit your firmly held views.

Der Alte · Oct 16, 2021

Derf said:
Of course, it’s good to be skeptical of something that doesn’t fit your firmly held views.

Show me something credible that shows E. W. Bullinger wrote the article you quoted. If I posted something and claimed it was written by famous scholar would you not insist I prove that it was?
And once again all of the ECF who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it an actual event. Note I have provided correct references.
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book1
Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII. [A.D. 145-220.]
Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Methodius [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III.

Derf · Oct 16, 2021

Der Alte said:
Show me something credible that shows E. W. Bullinger wrote the article you quoted. If I posted something and claimed it was written by famous scholar would you not insist I prove that it was?
And once again all of the ECF who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it an actual event. Note I have provided correct references.
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book1
Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII. [A.D. 145-220.]
Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Methodius [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III.

This is what one pastor says of Bullinger

He was a profound student of all the Scriptures, and perhaps analyzed every word in them. He was an unusual master of the original languages. No man of God ever stood more faithfully for the verbal inspiration, the integrity and authority of the Bible. No man was ever a greater defender of the eternal Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ than was Dr. Bullinger.

Then he says this, something he disagrees with Bullinger about:
His teaching was that, the soul is not conscious in the intermediate state.

You can find this here:
https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/bullingerism-or-ultradispensationalism/

Derf · Oct 17, 2021

Der Alte said:
Show me something credible that shows E. W. Bullinger wrote the article you quoted. If I posted something and claimed it was written by famous scholar would you not insist I prove that it was?
And once again all of the ECF who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it an actual event. Note I have provided correct references.
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book1
Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII. [A.D. 145-220.]
Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Methodius [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III.

Here’s another source:
E. W. Bullinger - Theology
which says:
Outside of ultradispensationalism, many other examples of Bullinger's unique views can be found. For example, Bullinger argues that Jesus was crucified with four, not just two, criminals. Bullinger argued for mortality of the soul, the cessation of the soul between death and resurrection.

This seems to be common knowledge about Bullinger. I haven’t studied him much. Maybe I will now.

Der Alte · Oct 18, 2021

Derf said:
Here’s another source:
E. W. Bullinger - Theology
which says:
Outside of ultradispensationalism, many other examples of Bullinger's unique views can be found. For example, Bullinger argues that Jesus was crucified with four, not just two, criminals. Bullinger argued for mortality of the soul, the cessation of the soul between death and resurrection.
This seems to be common knowledge about Bullinger. I haven’t studied him much. Maybe I will now.

Once again a secondary source stating unsupported opinions about Bullinger. When I started grad school about 4 decades ago one of the profs said something to the effect. "Use primary sources. That doesn't mean the first one you look at. But something written by the person being quoted not a secondary source quoting the subject."
I find it hard to believe that Bullinger, or any other scholar, would specifically identify something in one writing, as Bullinger did "parable," then contradict it in another writing.
Once again the story of Lazarus and the rich man may be another figure of speech, there are 217 to choose from, but it does not have a comparison "this is like unto that."

Derf · Oct 18, 2021

Der Alte said:
Once again a secondary source stating unsupported opinions about Bullinger. When I started grad school about 4 decades ago one of the profs said something to the effect. "Use primary sources. That doesn't mean the first one you look at. But something written by the person being quoted not a secondary source quoting the subject."
I find it hard to believe that Bullinger, or any other scholar, would specifically identify something in one writing, as Bullinger did "parable," then contradict it in another writing.
Once again the story of Lazarus and the rich man may be another figure of speech, there are 217 to choose from, but it does not have a comparison "this is like unto that."

I can't prove to you that Bullinger ever wrote anything at all. Neither can you prove it to me. I offered some info for you to research, as you seem quite smitten by Dr. Bullinger (no snide intended), and I would think you would look into whether he really did say something at odds with your beliefs.

Here's the book, available on various sites, and a record of earlier editions, going back at least to 1900: The Rich Man and Lazarus

You can read it here on scribd: https://www.scribd.com/document/6888148/The-rich-man-and-lazarus-40-pages-E-W-Bullinger

Or here without scribd (but it was edited, including a footnote about Billy Graham, so I don't know how to distinguish the edits from the original): https://12f59b9e-24ea-bdff-c841-a90...d/d21e04_c1c03710d3df4c489391975e1ddd4739.pdf

As to whether he really wrote such a book, there are numerous pieces of evidence I've already provided, including one from a fan that also disagreed with his position on the intermediate state--similar to you, it seems. Such would be the most trustworthy testimony, in my opinion. But there are others.

Here's one who's not a fan, but he is assessing numerous of Dr. B's works--including the book/pamphlet in question. And he was contemporaneous with Bullinger: An Examination of Dr. E.W. Bullinger's Bible Teaching - Algernon James Pollock (#15073) - BTP

Here's another of Dr. B's contemporaries: Home Page - "Plymouth Brethren" Historical Archive | Plymouth Brethren Archive

While you can easily take the same position on each of these--that someone made up the contents they are trying to refute, those refutations are spanning more than 100 years. How likely would people spend so much time to refute something he never wrote?

And it passes the two-witness test--that there were two people in Bullinger's time that testify that Bullinger wrote these words, and then they felt the need to refute them. If you're going to shut your eyes to evidence when it doesn't meet your approval, you may as well stop posting on forums altogether, because you've become a law unto yourself, and you're going to lead people astray.

Hawkins · Oct 18, 2021

Akita Suggagaki said:
St Paul was content to say 'I don't know" when lifted to 3rd heaven.
"I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows—was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat."

Some things we do not need to know but can still learn from.

What Paul said here actually sets a standard. "In body" simply means you are conscious. It's not an experience when you are completely knocked out or black out. "In body" marks a fundamental difference to a standard NDE. Paul is "in body" while "caught up to the third heaven".

That said. NDE is not death itself. Death is a fated process, a one way ticket without return. A death means you need a resurrection before you can return back. Sometimes in NDE state a "channel" is opened or established between your soul and the outside realm, that anyone can made use of this "channel" as long as "it is allowed". "Allowed" is in a sense that NDEs somehow are in favor of Christianity or a religion. They tend to make the one in experience religious. At least from the experiencer's speculation a realm outside of our physical one possibly exists.

Derf · Oct 18, 2021

Hawkins said:
They tend to make the one in experience religious. At least from the experiencer's speculation a realm outside of our physical one possibly exists.

Do you have any corroboration of this statement you could share?

Der Alte · Oct 19, 2021

Derf said:
I can't prove to you that Bullinger ever wrote anything at all. Neither can you prove it to me. I offered some info for you to research, as you seem quite smitten by Dr. Bullinger (no snide intended), and I would think you would look into whether he really did say something at odds with your beliefs.
Here's the book, available on various sites, and a record of earlier editions, going back at least to 1900: The Rich Man and Lazarus
You can read it here on scribd: https://www.scribd.com/document/6888148/The-rich-man-and-lazarus-40-pages-E-W-Bullinger
Or here without scribd (but it was edited, including a footnote about Billy Graham, so I don't know how to distinguish the edits from the original): https://12f59b9e-24ea-bdff-c841-a906e59ec3b9.filesusr.com/ugd/d21e04_c1c03710d3df4c489391975e1ddd4739.pdf
As to whether he really wrote such a book, there are numerous pieces of evidence I've already provided, including one from a fan that also disagreed with his position on the intermediate state--similar to you, it seems. Such would be the most trustworthy testimony, in my opinion. But there are others.
Here's one who's not a fan, but he is assessing numerous of Dr. B's works--including the book/pamphlet in question. And he was contemporaneous with Bullinger: An Examination of Dr. E.W. Bullinger's Bible Teaching - Algernon James Pollock (#15073) - BTP
Here's another of Dr. B's contemporaries: Home Page - "Plymouth Brethren" Historical Archive | Plymouth Brethren Archive
While you can easily take the same position on each of these--that someone made up the contents they are trying to refute, those refutations are spanning more than 100 years. How likely would people spend so much time to refute something he never wrote?
And it passes the two-witness test--that there were two people in Bullinger's time that testify that Bullinger wrote these words, and then they felt the need to refute them. If you're going to shut your eyes to evidence when it doesn't meet your approval, you may as well stop posting on forums altogether, because you've become a law unto yourself, and you're going to lead people astray.

If a book lists Bullinger as the author that is good enough for me. But if another scholar quoting Bullinger that is not convincing, a quote can be out-of-context, partial etc.
I'm not "smitten" with Bullinger or any other author. If you google "Figures of speech in the Bible" Bullinger's book is the most extensive and detailed.

Derf · Oct 19, 2021

Der Alte said:
If a book lists Bullinger as the author that is good enough for me. But if another scholar quoting Bullinger that is not convincing, a quote can be out-of-context, partial etc.
I'm not "smitten" with Bullinger or any other author. If you google "Figures of speech in the Bible" Bullinger's book is the most extensive and detailed.

Fantastic! So now you can agree with me that it's possible for there to be something that I call "1/2 parable", or something that Bullinger, who you recognize as an expert, calls either a parable or not a parable, depending on the mood he's in at the time.

Der Alte · Oct 19, 2021

Derf said:
Fantastic! So now you can agree with me that it's possible for there to be something that I call "1/2 parable", or something that Bullinger, who you recognize as an expert, calls either a parable or not a parable, depending on the mood he's in at the time.

How could you possibly get that from anything I said? My professors would not accept secondary sources why should I? 1/2 parable? There ain't no such critter. Maybe if you reviewed Bullinger you might find a figure of speech that fits. Until such time I will go with the 4 ECF who quoted Lazarus and the rich guy. They considered it factual.

Derf · Oct 19, 2021

Der Alte said:
How could you possibly get that from anything I said? My professors would not accept secondary sources why should I? 1/2 parable? There ain't no such critter. Maybe if you reviewed Bullinger you might find a figure of speech that fits. Until such time I will go with the 4 ECF who quoted Lazarus and the rich guy. They considered it factual.

Ok. Your loss.

Derf · Nov 21, 2022

Hawkins said:
Paul is "in body" while "caught up to the third heaven".

If Paul said he didn't know whether it was in body or out of the body, how can you be so sure it was "in body"?

GoldenKingGaze · Mar 5, 2023

NDEs go back to ancient Greek records. Also the old RCC has them. The Muslims consider them blasphemous.

NDEs became prolific in the 20th century, especially with advanced resuscitation and so many surgeries. Hypoxia is not an adequate explanation.

Many documentaries and books have been written by Drs and experiencers. I read My Descent into Death by Howard Storm and contacted him. I can ask if you want his number. I read Embraced by the Light by Betty J Eadie. They also have videos along with Colton Burpo's story.

Then there are general books written by Drs like 1975 Life After Life by Dr Raymond Moody, in which he first documents commonalities. Go up the tunnel of to a great light, meeting the being of light, also identifies sometimes as Jesus. Being asked, "Do you love me, what have you done for your fellow man?" Asked without spoken words. And the life review, with strong feelings of how you made other people feel.

Meeting old friends and family, or saint Francis.

A countryside with intense beauty, supernatural light, a border of no return. There is a difference between the country and the city, with it's beautiful gates, buildings and inside there is the throne.

Some people see a river. There is music. Streets paved with gold.

Colton aged about 4 recognized his grand father, from pictures of him in his youth.

I think these accounts have become a genre of writing and people now make them up. So stories from pre-2000 are better.

There is IANDS and near-death.com They have accounts from all religions and many countries, and children's...

Ivan Rudolph in Living Beyond explains hallucinations from real NDEs, Heaven from paradise and purgatory from Hell. Benefits, other religions...

So people since 1920 say, until now and 1 in 20 have had an NDE, seen the light or horror. That's hundreds of thousands. In Psalms testimonies are prized.

Derf · Mar 6, 2023

GoldenKingGaze said:
NDEs go back to ancient Greek records. Also the old RCC has them. The Muslims consider them blasphemous.

NDEs became prolific in the 20th century, especially with advanced resuscitation and so many surgeries. Hypoxia is not an adequate explanation.

Many documentaries and books have been written by Drs and experiencers. I read My Descent into Death by Howard Storm and contacted him. I can ask if you want his number. I read Embraced by the Light by Betty J Eadie. They also have videos along with Colton Burpo's story.

Then there are general books written by Drs like 1975 Life After Life by Dr Raymond Moody, in which he first documents commonalities. Go up the tunnel of to a great light, meeting the being of light, also identifies sometimes as Jesus. Being asked, "Do you love me, what have you done for your fellow man?" Asked without spoken words. And the life review, with strong feelings of how you made other people feel.

Meeting old friends and family, or saint Francis.

A countryside with intense beauty, supernatural light, a border of no return. There is a difference between the country and the city, with it's beautiful gates, buildings and inside there is the throne.

Some people see a river. There is music. Streets paved with gold.

Colton aged about 4 recognized his grand father, from pictures of him in his youth.

I think these accounts have become a genre of writing and people now make them up. So stories from pre-2000 are better.

There is IANDS and near-death.com They have accounts from all religions and many countries, and children's...

Ivan Rudolph in Living Beyond explains hallucinations from real NDEs, Heaven from paradise and purgatory from Hell. Benefits, other religions...

So people since 1920 say, until now and 1 in 20 have had an NDE, seen the light or horror. That's hundreds of thousands. In Psalms testimonies are prized.

The Muslims' take on them is interesting. I wonder if that's because of all the dreams Muslims have been having of Jesus.

I agree testimony is necessary, but is it the right kind to establish these things as conveying correct info about the afterlife?

GoldenKingGaze · Mar 8, 2023

The hard line Muslims don't like their relatives having these dreams, and I think sometimes, to save their lives, they have to keep it secret.

For the NDE patient, what they saw is real, as it was for Abraham and Moses, who wrote the Bible. But they can be deceived, so for most of us, some select NDEs can influence how we interpret sacred scripture. I am sure we don't live many lives on Earth. Some NDEs confirm it, while others contradict. Some want to hear an alternative to the truth. I personally believe in pre-conception memories but not a previous life. You can see this in www.near-death.com that they want to find evidence for previous lives where there isn't any.

Derf · Mar 8, 2023

GoldenKingGaze said:
The hard line Muslims don't like their relatives having these dreams, and I think sometimes, to save their lives, they have to keep it secret.

For the NDE patient, what they saw is real, as it was for Abraham and Moses, who wrote the Bible. But they can be deceived, so for most of us, some select NDEs can influence how we interpret sacred scripture. I am sure we don't live many lives on Earth. Some NDEs confirm it, while others contradict. Some want to hear an alternative to the truth. I personally believe in pre-conception memories but not a previous life. You can see this in www.near-death.com that they want to find evidence for previous lives where there isn't any.

I can see where Satan giving false NDE experiences would lead people away from Christ, and God giving true NDE experiences might lead some to Christ, but in the end, if the source can be either Satan or God, the only way to know, at least for most people, is to compare with scripture ("test the spirits to see whether they be from God"). But that means little can be learned from them.

Derf · Mar 8, 2023

GoldenKingGaze said:
The hard line Muslims don't like their relatives having these dreams, and I think sometimes, to save their lives, they have to keep it secret.

For the NDE patient, what they saw is real, as it was for Abraham and Moses, who wrote the Bible. But they can be deceived, so for most of us, some select NDEs can influence how we interpret sacred scripture. I am sure we don't live many lives on Earth. Some NDEs confirm it, while others contradict. Some want to hear an alternative to the truth. I personally believe in pre-conception memories but not a previous life. You can see this in www.near-death.com that they want to find evidence for previous lives where there isn't any.

I don't think Abraham or Moses had any NDEs. Paul might have.

GoldenKingGaze · Mar 8, 2023

Derf said:
I don't think Abraham or Moses had any NDEs. Paul might have.

What I meant was, they saw and interacted, and it became their belief and their teaching, which we believe.

Derf · Mar 9, 2023

GoldenKingGaze said:
What I meant was, they saw and interacted, and it became their belief and their teaching, which we believe.

Do I understand you to say that NDEs are equivalent to revelation from God?

Near death experiences—Can we learn anything from them?

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