The Asbury ‘Surprising Work of God’

Aussie Pete said:

And fizzled out. My concern with revivals generally is how little long term fruit there is. Unless there is fundamental teaching to establish believers in Christ, the emotion will evaporate and it will become a fond memory at best.

Click to expand...

You speak as though you have never experienced the presence of God. Sad. When Isaiah saw the Son of Man in all His glory, did someone need to tell him he was a sinner? No, he knew right away by being in the presence of God. Same with Job. Same with Abraham. Same with Moses. The list goes on. To say people can't experience that today is like cutting the new covenant in half and settling for scraps.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

You speak as though you have never experienced the presence of God. Sad. When Isaiah saw the Son of Man in all His glory, did someone need to tell him he was a sinner? No, he knew right away by being in the presence of God. Same with Job. Same with Abraham. Same with Moses. The list goes on. To say people can't experience that today is like cutting the new covenant in half and settling for scraps.

Click to expand...

I was born again 50 years ago. I've known the presence of God many times and I've been in meetings where people were healed instantly, there were prophecies, people were being saved and delivered. Fast forward a few years and many of those people were unchanged. It is the Truth that sets people free, not warm fuzzy feelings.

If what you say is true, there is no need to preach the gospel. Life would be so much easier. I could walk through the shopping centre and people would be begging to be saved. After all, Jesus is always with me so I have His presence constantly.

You have missed my point. Experiences are all very well, but in the long term they count for little. The Israelites knew the presence and power of God in ways that no one in this day and age has experienced. It was of no value because they had no faith. How do we get faith? By the word of God:
'Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.' Romans 10:17

Moses did not just sit in God's presence. The Lord revealed Himself and gave Moses his word. Moses was continually in God's presence, not just for a week or two of revival. Trying to live off experiences is like trying to live off ice cream. Believers need solid food and they need it daily. Otherwise they will suffer spiritual malnutrition. 'Give us this day our daily bread' refers to spiritual food, to the 'Bread of Life', the Living Word who is Christ.

If I recall correctly, what started the revival was a rousing sermon, followed by people starting to confess sins in public. Scholars of religion will point out that people doing public, costly acts (like confessing your sins in public, for instance) tends to inspire belief moreso than simply providing people with an opportunity to agree to some propositions about reality.

Aussie Pete said:

It is the Truth that sets people free, not warm fuzzy feelings.

Click to expand...

If what you experienced was just "warm fuzzy feelings," then that tells me it was not the presence of God.

The Pharisees had the Truth smack them in the face, and they still didn't believe.

How do you determine if a person will have lasting fruit? Or what is the difference between conviction and sentiment?

Jesse Dornfeld said:

If what you experienced was just "warm fuzzy feelings," then that tells me it was not the presence of God.

The Pharisees had the Truth smack them in the face, and they still didn't believe.

How do you determine if a person will have lasting fruit? Or what is the difference between conviction and sentiment?

Click to expand...

Being set free by the truth is conditional, as no doubt you know. The evidence for lasting fruit is simple. It's lasting fruit. Feelings come and go. Truth is rock solid. I know someone who had an amazing encounter with God. He had been part fasting for months and had lost 40 kg. He came home one day (I was sharing a house with him) after spending all day with the Lord. He shone like I imagine and angel to shine. Within a few weeks he'd gone back to his old ways. He had no consecration and no ongoing relationship with Jesus. He put all the weight back on. Exactly why, I don't know. But for sure he was not feeding on the Word or maintaining an ongoing relationship with the Lord. I believe that he is saved and that God will restore him one day. But at what a cost.

Aussie Pete said:

Being set free by the truth is conditional, as no doubt you know. The evidence for lasting fruit is simple. It's lasting fruit. Feelings come and go. Truth is rock solid. I know someone who had an amazing encounter with God. He had been part fasting for months and had lost 40 kg. He came home one day (I was sharing a house with him) after spending all day with the Lord. He shone like I imagine and angel to shine. Within a few weeks he'd gone back to his old ways. He had no consecration and no ongoing relationship with Jesus. He put all the weight back on. Exactly why, I don't know. But for sure he was not feeding on the Word or maintaining an ongoing relationship with the Lord. I believe that he is saved and that God will restore him one day. But at what a cost.

Click to expand...

Why don't people answer my questions? (Not a question to you, I am just talking to myself.)

I've experienced things I cannot explain naturalistically, and I would even say I experienced a "spiritual high" for several months after my faith was confirmed. But, while I am still not perfect, my faith has never been stronger, even though the spiritual high has long gone.

So you can be skeptical of what is happening in America right now, but then you will not be able to experience it for yourself, and that's the sad part of all this. People want to show "discernment" by waiting to judge the fruit, and then, whether there is lasting fruit or not, they miss out on experiencing something that only comes around once in a generation. IMO, the experience of God's presence should cause you to deepen your walk with God, not the opposite, and it should be clear from scripture that God's presence does produce lasting fruit. Experience is only a secondary means to understanding things, not a primary way.

Subjective spiritual experiences can obviously be significant to individuals, but it's difficult to see how a small revival in a seminary is going to change long-term trends. Evangelicalism is on the decline in the US. For the past couple of years, the number of people identifying as Evangelicals has been lower than the number of those identifying with Mainline Protestantism. Which is truly astounding as most of my life, it's been the opposite case- journalists used to proclaim the death of "liberal Mainline Protestantism", and the inevitability of the dominance of Evangelical religion. It's not likely that Hispanic or Black population will offset these declines, either, as Hispanics are evenly divided between Evangelical denominations, and Mainline Protestant denominations. And African-American religion has tended to be culturally distinct but intellectually aligned more with the Protestant Mainline (many Historic Black Protestants are sent to Mainline Protestant seminaries). Meanwhile, the number of "religious nones" is growing the most of all.

Interestingly enough, the tipping point seemed to happened right around the same time period that Racheld Held Evans, a prominent journalist of religion who had a national audience, announced she was becoming Episcopalian. I don't think that's coincidental. Alot of young Evangelicals are "deconstructing", and either leaving Christian churches altogether, or finding churches that align with their liberal intellectual and social values.

Aussie Pete said:

And fizzled out. My concern with revivals generally is how little long term fruit there is. Unless there is fundamental teaching to establish believers in Christ, the emotion will evaporate and it will become a fond memory at best.

Click to expand...

Did it fizzle out, or spread out? I'm seeing a hunger in the body of Christ that I haven't seen in 40+ years I've been in the body of Christ. This isn't some evangalistic tent meeting calling itself a revival. It's not yet for the lost who never had life to revive. It's for the half-alive body, to come to full vitality. You can't revive what was never alive in the first place.

I have found that most genuine "revivals" begin with a deep repentance from sin and intercession. I recall David Wilkerson speaking about 'joy popping" during the Jesus movement.

SavedByGrace3 said:

I have found that most genuine "revivals" begin with a deep repentance from sin and intercession. I recall David Wilkerson speaking about 'joy popping" during the Jesus movement.

Click to expand...

Did David Wilkerson flip flop on the Jesus movement? He HATED it when it was happening. They were just finding Jesus, but they kept the same clothes.

jiminpa said:

Did David Wilkerson flip flop on the Jesus movement? He HATED it when it was happening. They were just finding Jesus, but they kept the same clothes.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm. Never saw that aspect.

Interesting/informative books..
---
'The Jesus People Movement' (Jesus Movement)
- Richard Bustraan
---
'The Asbury Revival'
- Wayne Atchison
"..the Move of God from its very beginnings in 1970.." at Asbury.

SavedByGrace3 said:

Hmmmm. Never saw that aspect.

Click to expand...

I used to read David Wilkerson. It didn't go well for my walk with God.

jiminpa said:

Did it fizzle out, or spread out? I'm seeing a hunger in the body of Christ that I haven't seen in 40+ years I've been in the body of Christ. This isn't some evangalistic tent meeting calling itself a revival. It's not yet for the lost who never had life to revive. It's for the half-alive body, to come to full vitality. You can't revive what was never alive in the first place.

Click to expand...

We had revival in Australia in the 1970's. I was saved during that time. Yes, it fizzled out, at least in part because of pastors who feared losing control of "their" people. I am delighted that there is a move of God now. I will be even happier if those touched by revival become established in God's word. Otherwise it's like throwing a rock into a pond. A big splash and ripples that fade away after a time.

Aussie Pete said:

We had revival in Australia in the 1970's. I was saved during that time. Yes, it fizzled out, at least in part because of pastors who feared losing control of "their" people. I am delighted that there is a move of God now. I will be even happier if those touched by revival become established in God's word. Otherwise it's like throwing a rock into a pond. A big splash and ripples that fade away after a time.

Click to expand...

My area in Massachusetts also had a revival of sort in the 1970's. It was the Charismatic Movement, and
Fr Diorio had just begun a healing ministry at the parish he was assigned to. It became popular very
quickly and I had gone to a couple of those services. Eventually, the dioceses asked him to begin his
own ministry outside of a parish, as it was too disrupting to the parish life there. So, he did and it
grew until it leveled off.

I think the Jesus Revelation is needed today more than ever!

Aussie Pete said:

We had revival in Australia in the 1970's. I was saved during that time. Yes, it fizzled out, at least in part because of pastors who feared losing control of "their" people. I am delighted that there is a move of God now. I will be even happier if those touched by revival become established in God's word. Otherwise it's like throwing a rock into a pond. A big splash and ripples that fade away after a time.

Click to expand...

Going through the Jesus movement of the 70s, my feeling is that it fizzled because the movement on a whole was immature and lacked the foundations and discipline to grow and become established. The established churches were skeptical, suspicious, and unwilling to get involved. I think it scared some people. But even if they were willing, many of the "Jesus people" disliked the establishment (it was a time of rebellion) and "traditions." That, I think, was our undoing. That and the personality idol thing. Young people in their late teens and early 20s are just not role models for Christian living.

SavedByGrace3 said:

Going through the Jesus movement of the 70s, my feeling is that it fizzled because the movement on a whole was immature and lacked the foundations and discipline to grow and become established. The established churches were skeptical, suspicious, and unwilling to get involved. I think it scared some people. But even if they were willing, many of the "Jesus people" disliked the establishment (it was a time of rebellion) and "traditions." That, I think, was our undoing. That and the personality idol thing. Young people in their late teens and early 20s are just not role models for Christian living.

Click to expand...

I agree. A few churches embraced the movement, but not many. Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel was one. Calvary Chapel (in Sydney Australia) was the only place that I felt like they understood my dilemma as a young Christian. I can understand why people of any age reject the establishment! My daily prayer is for God to raise up ministries that will do what they are supposed to do - equip the saints for the work of serving the Kingdom of God.

I was involved to an extent with the Charismatic movement. It seemed that denominational barriers were collapsing. Instead, the hierarchies clamped down (in Australia anyway) and that was it. Also, God's message to the Church was rejected. God was calling for the restoration of body ministry. The church I attended started to follow that call. The leadership were unwilling to permit others to fulfill their place in the body. That particular church hardly exists now. I am often reminded of the fate of the 7 churches in the Book of Revelation. They no longer exist. Their ruins are in Muslim Turkey. It pays to listen and obey God's instructions.