Did God Ordain Everything?

Bobber

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Again, a hypothetical email exchange like the one you described would not be the time or place for that.
Well it's not a hypothetical email exchange. You can read in the article section on CARM.
However, as you astutely noted, it would come in time as she listened to the preaching of God's word from the pulpit and dug deep into catechesis and Bible study.
And that would tell her what? That God actually wanted and intended that she be so victimized by an insidious let's call it unclean crime? Remember according to Calvinists when God ordains something he actually wants that to happen. You see you just can't say he allowed it....you would be on Non-Calvinist ground to say that.


 
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Bobber

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The message she would hear from a non-Calvinist pulpit would induce cognitive dissonance, that God is heartbroken over the wicked things that humans do to one another which he allows to happen. She would hear about a God who has the power to stop these things but he allows them to happen. Why? Well, there is no sense in asking why because that would imply he had a purpose in it—and he most certainly does not!
The reason why is because God gave humanity free will. It's breaks his heart how he uses it and will judge evil doers eventually but that's a lot more comforting then to say God actually wanted them and intended them to be victimized by such an insidious type of crime. But sorry but you Calvinists claim God has a purpose for every precise thing that occurs.
In these non-Calvinist sermons she would hear, "There is no comfort or peace to be had because we worship a God who had no reason for allowing this gratuitous evil to happen to you."
And the reason he allowed it is for the reason he gave men free will. Again a thousand times more comforting then to hear from a Calvinists God ordained it to happen by intent.
What she would hear from the Calvinist pulpit is that we don't know why God allows this or that particular instance of evil. Deuteronomy 29:29 is an oft-cited and well-known passage in Calvinist communities:
See there you go. You on the ground of the Non-Calvinists that God doesn't ordain everything he merely allows it. Every other day of the week though you'd say everything that happens is for his glory whatever that is supposed to mean.

Although we don't know his purpose in any particular case, such knowledge isn't required for us to trust him.
Now you're swinging back to your Calvinism. That God has a purpose the dear lady to be victimized. Sorry but that's just so wrong on so many levels. The purpose of the criminal was to allow his flesh to be unrestrained. The purpose of the devil was to steal, kill and destroy and to demoralize her sense of dignity. God had no purpose, desire nor did he ordain anything so sick to happen to such a person. Sorry but one is out of their mind to suggest this might be so.

We are to submit to trials, not because we see the reasons for them, nor yet as though they were matters of chance, but because God wills them, and has a right to send them, and has his own good reasons in sending them.
Nope. God did not desire nor ordain for a woman to be victimized NOR did he send it. It's the devil which comes to steal, kill and destroy.
 
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Bobber

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You can bring to bear the most emotionally-wrought adjectives in the English language and it will not change the witness of Scripture.
It's been my experience having discussed with Calvinists for years when one really gets on the ORDAINING all things doctrine, Calvinists do get nervous and back off. They want to change the subject for in their hearts they down right know there's NO WAY God can or would ordain everything that happens.

Even on this site you good folks keep using the words God merely allows things. But that is not the true ground of the Calvinist. The true ground you always are on is that God ORDAINS everything. Sorry but it seems when you're back is up against the wall you change that to ALLOWS things.

I believe I've made my case. Readers can decide.
 
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Clare73

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Sounds like you are just determined to blame God.

Do you see God's justice as cause for blame?
Has nothing to do with Calvinism.
This is what faith and love are about. Believe and trust Him or not. Truth is there is no comfort for this women or others who suffer such things. There is no way to undo it or make it better. It happened because we live in a fallen and falling world.

Is that not what I said?
 
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Clare73

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The only reason it was necessary for Paul to suffer for the gospel is that's goes with the territory of getting the message out. Sorry but you can't compare that to a lady who was victimized by being raped saying that was necessary! Sorry but you need to think through on what you're saying.
I can compare that to the reason for suffering in the world (like Stephen and Paul) is because it is a fallen world.
If you're a Calvinist
I don't do "ism's," I do Bible.
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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It's not a hypothetical email exchange. You can read in the article section on [the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry web site].

I said given a hypothetical email like the one you described. In other words, I wasn't talking about the one you described—for I know nothing about it—but rather one like it.

I have no reason to believe you even know the author of that email; it's unlikely that any CARM staff knows her, either. So, instead of talking about some person neither one of us knows who isn't even here to speak for herself in the first place, let's discuss this in the context of the monstrous, violent abuse that I suffered repeatedly throughout my entire childhood, year after endless year, at the hands of those who should have cared for and protected me the most. I mean, instead of guessing what an innocent victim of demonic crimes would or wouldn't feel or find helpful, let's allow one to speak for himself.

What did Calvinist preaching tell me? Did it tell me that God wanted this little boy to be beaten, degraded, whipped, belittled, and finally thrown out like garbage? No, sorry, it did not. Maybe that's what it tells you—but we're not talking about you. We are talking about how an innocent victim of horrible, malevolent crimes would feel upon hearing such sermons, and I am happy to volunteer that information. Please take it seriously. (Or do your beliefs about such victims not extend to any that are talking to you?) Through Calvinist preaching—thank God for R. C. Sproul—I learned that God is infinite in being and perfection—sovereign, completely holy, all-wise, and almighty—and that he works everything according to the purpose of his will, which is purely righteous, and for his own glory, which is inextricably connected to the good of his children. I learned that he is loving, gracious, merciful, and long-suffering, overflowing with goodness and truth, that his judgments are fully just, he hates all sin, and will not acquit the guilty. So, I felt assured and comforted that God had good purposes in the nightmare I experienced—and one day I can find out what those purposes were—and that my unbelieving parents would pay the ultimate price at the judgment throne of my heavenly Father because THEIR intentions were anything but good. And this distinction is a biblical truth manifest in the lives of Joseph and Sennacherib and more, stories about which I learned from Calvinist preaching.

What I heard through non-Calvinist preaching (Baptist) was that God had no reason for the gratuitous evil that happened to me. It was purposeless. That, I assure you, neither brought me any comfort nor put me on a healing path. It left me in anguish and confusion. And your answer is even worse: God valued a human faculty (my parents free-will) more highly than his innocent little image-bearer (me). "I refuse to interfere with their free-will, so I'm going to let them violate you." Never mind the horrible message that sends, it's not even biblical because there are many examples in Scripture of God interfering with human free-will. In other words, God not only can interfere but has done so—just not for this innocent little boy?


You see, you just can't say he allowed it. You would [have to] be on non-Calvinist ground to say that.

A Calvinist most certainly can say that God "allowed" it because what he means by that term is that (a) evil doesn't proceed from God, the first cause, (b) whose holy righteousness does not and cannot cause or approve sin. This is stated expressly in the Westminster Confession of Faith. Consider the example of Satan trying to make his case through Job, a servant of God who rightly saw it all as from God; and even in the final chapter of the book of Job it says that, after God abundantly restored all that Job had lost, his family and friends comforted him and consoled him "for all the trouble the LORD had brought on him" (Job 42:10-11). Satan could not have done anything if God had forbidden him; thus God allowed it, so ultimately he brought it upon Job.


The reason why is because God gave humanity free will.

Yes, he did—a freedom of will that man possessed so briefly. From the fall of Adam and Eve onward, the human will has not been free but rather enslaved to sin.


It breaks his heart how [man] uses it, and [he] will judge evildoers eventually, but that's a lot more comforting than to say ... [snip rest]

A lot more comforting to whom? Victims of heinous evil? Remember, one of them is talking to you. Hear me when I tell you that no victim would be comforted by hearing that God values a human faculty more highly than a human image-bearer. "I refuse to interfere with their free-will, so I'm going to let them violate you. I could stop them—I have in the past—but I'm not going to."


Sorry, but you Calvinists claim [that] God has a purpose for every precise thing that occurs.

We do, yes, a belief derived from the witness of Scripture. I mean, not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from our Father's will. We so rarely know what his purposes are in any given situation but, given what God has revealed about himself and his acts throughout history, we confidently believe and proclaim that nothing in creation is purposeless.

(I want the reader to observe and even review how many references to Scripture my argument has been making, including this one about sparrows, and contrast it with the stark absence of biblical references within arguments for the freedom of the human will. It is a deafening silence. Draw your own conclusions, but at least notice that.)


And the reason he allowed it is for the reason he gave men free will. Again, a thousand times more comforting then to hear from a Calvinists God ordained it to happen by intent.

First, saying that God allowed something because he gave man free-will is tautological; it's saying the same thing twice in different words (essentially, he allowed it because he allowed it). Second, you keep repeating that your view is a lot more comforting, but saying it over and over doesn't make it so. An explanation is needed, not a tautology. For example, (a) why is a human faculty more valuable than a human image-bearer, and (b) how is that supposed to be comforting to the image-bearer herself?

-- DialecticSkeptic
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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See, there you go, on the ground of the non-Calvinists, [saying] that God doesn't ordain everything, he merely allows it.

It seems you're not aware that those are not mutually exclusive. God can allow one thing because he ordained that it happen (e.g., the Assyrian king invading Judah), or disallow another thing because he ordained that it not happen (e.g., king Abimelech having sexual relations with Sarah).


Every other day of the week, though, you'd say everything that happens is for his glory—whatever that is supposed to mean.

The Bible is not ambiguous about the glory of God. His children should have some idea of what it's supposed to mean (cf. 1 Cor 10:31).

Also—and I say this especially for the sake of the readers—Jerry Bridges had an encouraging, edifying word about God's glory and our good that I want to share: "God never pursues his glory at the expense of the good of his people, nor does he ever seek our good at the expense of his glory. He has designed his eternal purpose so that his glory and our good are inextricably bound together. What comfort and encouragement this should be to us. If we are going to learn to trust God in adversity, we must believe that just as certainly as God will allow nothing to subvert his glory, so he will allow nothing to spoil the good he is working out in us and for us." Excerpt taken from Trusting God: Even When Life Hurts (Colorado Springs: NavPress, 2008), pp. 23–24.


Now you're swinging back to your Calvinism, that God has a purpose [for] the dear lady to be victimized.

I never once departed or even shied away from the conviction that nothing in creation is purposeless. As I said, since our heavenly Father had a good purpose in the earthly horror of my childhood, one day I can find out what it was—and he is a holy, just, and good God, therefore I know that my soul will erupt in praise when he tells me. And my unbelieving parents will pay the ultimate price at the judgment because their intentions were anything but good.


Sorry but that's just so wrong on so many levels. The purpose of the criminal was to allow his flesh to be unrestrained. The purpose of the devil was to steal, kill, and destroy, and to demoralize her sense of dignity. God had no purpose, desire, nor did he ordain anything so sick to happen to such a person.

You're saying that the only purpose in all of creation for the heinous sins of wicked men and angels is found only in the wicked themselves, that we look to God in vain for any purpose in it. But my view is wrong on so many levels? Okay.


God did not desire or ordain for a woman to be victimized, nor did he send it. It's the devil which comes to steal, kill, and destroy.

It's like you have not read your own Bible. There are so many examples in Scripture of evil men and angels, even Satan himself, committing their wicked deeds not only under God's sanction but sometimes by his expressed ordainment. Yes, it is the devil who comes to steal, kill, and destroy—but what can he do with God in control? Only what God allows him to do, a clear picture of which we are shown in Job. (And not just Job, either. Remember Peter, for example.) Or what about Sennacherib, the king of Assyria? He hurls taunts and insults at God and his people and presumes to invade their cities. And God said, "Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass, that you have turned fortified cities into piles of stone."

There are more purposes at work than those of wicked men and angels. There is no clearer example of this than Joseph and his brothers: "As for you," he said, "you meant to harm me, but God intended it for a good purpose." One event, two purposes: that of his brothers (evil) and that of God (good). He was so attuned to the sovereign governance of God that he could say to them, "It wasn't you who sent me here, but God."

(Again, I want the reader to notice the multiple references to Scripture that my argument has been making and contrast it with the stark absence of biblical references in arguments for the freedom of the human will or things in creation having no divine purpose. This is an argument from assertion against an argument from Scripture. Even now, watch for him to attack my biblical references but still provide none of his own.)


It's been my experience, having discussed with Calvinists for years, [that] when one really gets on the ordaining-all-things doctrine Calvinists do get nervous and back off. They want to change the subject, for in their hearts they down-right know there's NO WAY God can or would ordain everything that happens.

That's not being observed here, sir.


Even on this site, you good folks keep using the words God merely allows things. But that is not the true ground of the Calvinist.

Indeed, it is not—and I quoted the Westminster Confession when explaining (above) why it is not "merely," which is just about the most Calvinist document you can get, second only to the Bible.


The true ground you always are on is that God ORDAINS everything.

No, that is a truth we profess. The ground upon which we always stand when professing it is Scripture.


I believe I've made my case. Readers can decide.

I seriously doubt that you feel like you have made your case (as your subsequent response should demonstrate), but I am completely onboard with letting the readers decide.

-- DialecticSkeptic
 
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Brightfame52

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Let me ask you something here. On a Calvinists web site a well known Calvinists wrote an article where he relates an email that was sent him from a dear lady who says she was raped and had a child that was conceived because of it. In order to comfort her the Calvinist stated it was very wrong what happened to her and the person would be judged at the judgement.

I agree with his statement it was very wrong but it seems to me he had forgot what he was..... a Calvinist and a well known one at that. Calvinists believed God caused everything, which most certainly is error but that's what they believe. If it was WRONG what happened to her then that Calvinist is saying (given HIS belief) then God was wrong for he says on another day God wanted everything that does happen to happen.

So to other Calvinists on here. What would you have told the lady who was victimized? Would you tell her God must have wanted it to happen to her, for the reason it did happen? Wanting to believe the best of you I'm guessing that's where you come up to a wall in your theology and you know you have to give it up. In your gut, in your inner most part of your being you just KNOW it can't be possible for such to be true. You know God could not have ordained such an insidious, horrible action to be placed upon this woman. One Calvinist on this site declared recently he can't envision anything that happens not being the will of God.

What say you? And this should be a mere YES of NO answer for if you're a Calvinist you either believe God wanted it to happen (ordained it) or he didn't. Did he or didn't he?
Tell the women the Truth. God ordained it, it was His Will. That is if you rally believe in the True God who does ordain all things.
 
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Bobber

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What did Calvinist preaching tell me? Did it tell me that God wanted this little boy to be beaten, degraded, whipped, belittled, and finally thrown out like garbage? No, sorry, it did not. Maybe that's what it tells you—but we're not talking about you.
Sorry but you're in denial as to what Calvinism doctrine really teaches and I don't care how many years you might claim you've studied. You can't change the words of things and if it says God ordained all things that therefore means he had intent that it turn out that way.
Through Calvinist preaching—thank God for R. C. Sproul—I learned that God is infinite in being and perfection—sovereign, completely holy, all-wise, and almighty—and that he works everything according to the purpose of his will, which is purely righteous, and for his own glory, which is inextricably connected to the good of his children.
The part I've made bold is what everyone believes Calvinists and Non-Calvinists. What your definition of what sovereign has to mean can I believe be challenged and also what it means to he works everything according to the purpose of his will. That likewise can be taken to be understood various ways.

I learned that he is loving, gracious, merciful, and long-suffering, overflowing with goodness and truth, that his judgments are fully just, he hates all sin, and will not acquit the guilty. So, I felt assured and comforted that God had good purposes in the nightmare I experienced—and one day I can find out what those purposes were—and that my unbelieving parents would pay the ultimate price at the judgment throne of my heavenly Father because THEIR intentions were anything but good.
God had no purpose in YOU being treated in an insidious way, if that's how you were treated. And you speak about a comfort to know your parents would be punished which really you should have a hope they received their sins forgiven but that's another subject. And I notice again you want to camp out on Non-Calvinist land for you want to believe in practice that God merely allowed whatever and did not ordain it. I think you would be much better off just acknowledging Calvinism cannot be right in how they're assessing things
What I heard through non-Calvinist preaching (Baptist) was that God had no reason for the gratuitous evil that happened to me. It was purposeless. That, I assure you, neither brought me any comfort nor put me on a healing path. It left me in anguish and confusion.
Oh I see so God wanting, desiring, orchestrating insidious things to happen to you through ORDAINING all things that really brings you comfort ?

And your answer is even worse: God valued a human faculty (my parents free-will) more highly than his innocent little image-bearer (me). "I refuse to interfere with their free-will, so I'm going to let them violate you."
God already said that for one's to hurt a child it would be worse for them then to have a milestone tied around one's neck and be thrown into the sea. One should still hope a sinner should come to repentance and receive the grace of God but he said what will happen to the one responsible for these type of sins if they don't. Sorry but your doctrine has it God wrote a program for every person to follow on everything they'd do which is called ordaining everything. So why would Jesus be so upset to the one's who would be carrying out his will. That's what ordaining means. Truth is God DID NOT ordain everything that takes place in the Earth. Your Calvinism teaches that he does.

A Calvinist most certainly can say that God "allowed" it because what he means by that term is that (a) evil doesn't proceed from God, the first cause, (b) whose holy righteousness does not and cannot cause or approve sin.
And that right there is double talk. You say God causes it but not as the first cause. And yet he ordained all things according to you before creation. For the reason that one would not be able to escape the ordaining influence then sorry but you doctrine has God having played a part in the cause.


 
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Bobber

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Tell the women the Truth. God ordained it, it was His Will. That is if you rally believe in the True God who does ordain all things.
So OK that's what you as a Calvinist would say. Another Calvinist on here states they'd never do that. Although I do not agree God ordained everything I'll say one thing at least you're consistence to what your doctrines teach. I'd still hope you wouldn't say such a horrible shocking thing to such a victim but it is what your paradigm teaches.
 
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Bobber

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Consider the example of Satan trying to make his case through Job, a servant of God who rightly saw it all as from God; and even in the final chapter of the book of Job it says that, after God abundantly restored all that Job had lost, his family and friends comforted him and consoled him "for all the trouble the LORD had brought on him" (Job 42:10-11).
OK so you want to talk about Job. Let's do so. Everything that's recorded that people said in the Bible does not mean they were right. It's correct that they said them but they were ignorant as to the character and nature of God. Through progressive revelation God imparted a more true understanding of God's character. Jesus demonstrated this when he revealed just what God is like in his personality and how he thinks. He came to reveal the Father. When you've seen Jesus you've seen the Father. The people that came together after Job's trouble sincerely thought God brought it upon him. When you study Job 1, you can find that wasn't actually true. He didn't bring it upon him Satan did. God merely allowed it.


Satan could not have done anything if God had forbidden him; thus God allowed it, so ultimately he brought it upon Job.

But he didn't bring it upon Job. Read Job 1. And God had no part in even instilling within Satan any desire or intent to do anything of these things to Job.
 
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Hammster

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Let me ask you something here. On a Calvinists web site a well known Calvinists wrote an article where he relates an email that was sent him from a dear lady who says she was raped and had a child that was conceived because of it. In order to comfort her the Calvinist stated it was very wrong what happened to her and the person would be judged at the judgement.

I agree with his statement it was very wrong but it seems to me he had forgot what he was..... a Calvinist and a well known one at that. Calvinists believed God caused everything, which most certainly is error but that's what they believe. If it was WRONG what happened to her then that Calvinist is saying (given HIS belief) then God was wrong for he says on another day God wanted everything that does happen to happen.

So to other Calvinists on here. What would you have told the lady who was victimized? Would you tell her God must have wanted it to happen to her, for the reason it did happen? Wanting to believe the best of you I'm guessing that's where you come up to a wall in your theology and you know you have to give it up. In your gut, in your inner most part of your being you just KNOW it can't be possible for such to be true. You know God could not have ordained such an insidious, horrible action to be placed upon this woman. One Calvinist on this site declared recently he can't envision anything that happens not being the will of God.

What say you? And this should be a mere YES of NO answer for if you're a Calvinist you either believe God wanted it to happen (ordained it) or he didn't. Did he or didn't he?
You’ll have to explain your terms. “Wanted” could be seen differently depending on the situation. For instance, I want ice cream because it tastes good. I also want to discipline my children because it’s good for them. One is pleasurable. One is not.
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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As I had anticipated, @Bobber has still presented zero biblical arguments for his case that (a) the human will is free and (b) some things happen with no divine purpose. He continues to just assert his beliefs, which are clearly anti-Calvinist and vaguely quasi-Arminian, expressed in Christian language but without a shred of biblical support. Surprisingly, though, he didn't attack any of my biblical references. I thought he would, but I guess not. Since my responses contained relevant biblical arguments and his did not contain any, I am content to leave the conversation as it stands and let the reader draw their own conclusions.

At any rate, his latest response to me was tantamount to him saying, "Nuh-uh!"—which left me nothing to respond to anyway.

But I do want to respond to this:

Okay, so you want to talk about Job. Let's do so. Everything that's recorded that people said in the Bible does not mean they were right. It's correct that they said them but they were ignorant as to the character and nature of God.

To remind the readers, Satan asked to afflict Job to make a point against God, and God allowed him to do it—and Job properly saw it all as from God, thus it is said that he "did not sin, nor did he charge God with moral impropriety" (Job 1:22; "nor charged God foolishly" [KJV], speaking hasty words against God is folly—literally an insipid, unsavory thing—which in Scripture is equivalent to wickedness).

I directed Bobber's attention to how at the end of the trials Job had endured God abundantly restored all that Job had lost and his family and friends comforted him and consoled him "for all the trouble the LORD had brought on him" (Job 42:10-11). Again, although it was Satan who afflicted Job, it was ultimately attributed to God. My point was to highlight the biblical case that God allowing something is not a "merely" kind of thing—Bobber's word, not mine—and showing that the Bible distinguishes between ultimate cause and proximate cause (which is why Calvinism does), just as it distinguishes between the purposes of wicked men and the purposes of God in one and the same sinful event (which is why Calvinism does).

Anyway, here we have Bobber's response to that. His argument seems to be, "Someone's words being recorded in the Bible doesn't mean they were right in what they said." And I must grant him that point because he's right, quite frankly. The problem, though, is that this passage (Job 42:10-11) is not a quote from anyone there, just as the key point in Job 1:22 is not something Job said. I'm afraid Bobber will have to try again.

-- DialecticSkeptic

Edited to add:

God had no purpose in YOU being treated in an insidious way, if that's how you were treated.

Can you imagine Bobber saying to the rape victim, "If that's what really happened"? Me neither. And yet he has no qualms saying such a thing to me.
 
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BBAS 64

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Seeing that the Westminster has been quoted figured a good Baptist confession would be useful.

I am thinking the OP may be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

CHAP. III. Of Gods Decree. 1. God hath 52Decreed in himself from all Eternity, by the most wise and holy Councel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things whatsoever comes to passe; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin, 53nor hath fellowship with any therein, nor is violence offered to the will of the Creature, nor yet is the liberty, or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather 54established, in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power, and faithfulness 55in accomplishing his Decree. 2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may, or can come to passe upon all 56 supposed conditions; yet hath he not Decreed anything, 57because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. 3. By the decree of God for the manifestation of his glory 58some men and Angels, are predestinated, or fore-ordained to Eternal Life, through Jesus Christ to the 59 praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their 60just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

48 1 Joh. 5.7. Mat. 28.19. 2 Cor. 13.14. 49 Exod. 3.14. Joh. 14.11. 1 Cor. 8.6. 50 Joh. 1.14.18. 51 Joh. 15.26. Gal. 4.6. 52 Is. 46.10. Eph. 1.11. Heb. 6.17. Rom. 9.15,18. 53 Jam. 1.15,17. 1 Joh. 1.5. 54 Act 4.27,28. Joh. 19.11. 55 Numb. 23.19. Eph. 1.3,4,5. 56 Act. 15.18. 57 Rom. 9.11.13.16.18. 58 1 Tim. 5.21. Mat. 25.41. 59 Eph. 1.5,6. 60 Rom. 9.22,23. Jud. 4. 8

4. These Angels and Men thus predestinated, and fore-ordained, are particularly, and unchangeably designed; and their 61number so certain, and definite, that it cannot be either increased, or diminished. 5. Those of mankind 62that are predestinated to life, God before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret Councel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his meer free grace and love; 63without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto. 6. As God hath appointed the Elect unto glory, so he hath by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, fore-ordained 64all the means thereunto, wherefore they who are elected, being faln in Adam, 65are redeemed by Christ, are effectually 66called unto faith in Christ, by his spirit working in due season, are justifyed, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith 67unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the Elect 68only. 7. The Doctrine of this high mystery of predestination, is to be handled with special prudence, and care; that men attending the will of God revealed in his word, and yeilding obedience thereunto, may from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their 69eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter 70of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and 71of humility, diligence, and abundant 72consolation, to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.

61 2 Tim. 2.19. Joh. 13.18. 62 Eph. 1.4.9.11. Rom. 8.30. 2 Tim. 1.9. 1 Thes. 5.9. 63 Rom. 9.13.16. Eph. 1.6.12. 64 1 Pet. 1.2. 2 Thes. 2.13. 65 1 Thes. 5.9,10. 66 Rom. 8.30. 2 Thes. 2.13. 67 1 Pet. 1.5. 68 Joh. 10.26. Joh. 17.9. Joh. 6.64. 69 1 Thes. 1.4,5. 2 Pet. 1.10. 70 Eph. 1.6. Rom. 11.33. 71 Rom. 11.5,6. 72 Luk. 10.20

In Him,

Bill
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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Seeing that the Westminster [Confession of Faith] has been quoted, I figured a good Baptist confession would be useful.

It also might be worth noting the differences between the two. Major differences highlighted with red text; minor differences highlighted with blue text; inconsequential differences not highlighted. (Credit goes to James N. Anderson for this tabular comparison.)

WCF - Chapter 3: Of God's Eternal DecreeLBCF - Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
7. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.
8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.7. The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
 
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Mark Quayle

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What say you? And this should be a mere YES of NO answer for if you're a Calvinist you either believe God wanted it to happen (ordained it) or he didn't. Did he or didn't he?
Occurs to me to mention that to say, "God wanted it to happen" is not the same as to say, "God ordained it". God's decree encompasses absolutely everything that happens, down the tiniest motion of the smallest particle and influence of the smallest force down the smallest spirit of the tiniest conceived fetus. But to say "God wanted" as if we know what it is for God to want something, as though it is the same as how WE want things, would be ignorant of the fact that God is not like us, and operates from a whole different economy, "structure", "realm", "state of being" than anything we are familiar with.

Consider the difference, even in English, between the words, "desire", and, "want". The old English meaning for 'want' included the notion of a lack of some thing. "Desire" only implies a certain feeling, not quite the same as a lack.

We speak so loosely of such things, not considering how words can so easily mislead, and even be cause for the worst of doctrines to be acceptable to us. A mere "YES" or "NO" would therefore not be appropriate to your question.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Well it's not a hypothetical email exchange. You can read in the article section on CARM.

And that would tell her what? That God actually wanted and intended that she be so victimized by an insidious let's call it unclean crime? Remember according to Calvinists when God ordains something he actually wants that to happen. You see you just can't say he allowed it....you would be on Non-Calvinist ground to say that.
'Ordains', and 'wants', are not the same thing, when it is God doing it. We don't even know what it means to say that God wants. He is not like us.
 
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Mark Quayle

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It's Calvinists who believe everything is ordained which it is not.

God set forth from the beginning Jesus would be a substitute for man's sin. Your serious error is you use that as a template for every thing that happens to people on the Earth.

You're setting up a detour and evading the questions of the OP and much appreciated that you'd spare us with your answering a question with a question. The fact is it seems you'd never answer the questions to a victimized one but you'd merely beat around the bush. You do this for you know all of humanity would throw your theology into the trash.

The questions were, What would you have told the lady who was victimized? Would you tell her God must have wanted it to happen to her, (being raped) for the reason it did happen?



So ladies and gentlemen you see what a Calvinist here does. THEY KNOW there's no rational person who would accept God wants people raped that he desires it to happen which is what ordaining is so they run off talking about other things.

In regard to how they have they sought to divert the direct question no God did NOT ordain for Stephen to be stoned he'd be fighting against his own kingdom by so and a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. And God did not ordain that Paul had to go through hat he did. Act 19:16 says I must show him the great things he must suffer but no where does that say he forced ungodly men to persecute the messenger of God.
I have yet to hear you deal with what has been repeatedly pointed out here. You attribute the strawman to Calvinism of "wanted" on God's part, instead of Calvinism's "intended" on God's part. There is a huge difference, and the difference answers your question.
 
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I have yet to hear you deal with what has been repeatedly pointed out here. You attribute the strawman to Calvinism of "wanted" on God's part, instead of Calvinism's "intended" on God's part. There is a huge difference, and the difference answers your question.
Sorry Mark I don't buy you're trying to make it seem like there's a big difference. I don't believe God intended the lady to be victimized nor did he want it. You're trying to say God intended an insidious thing happen to an innocent victim but that doesn't mean he wanted it. I still don't believe your position makes rational sense.
 
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Sorry Mark I don't buy you're trying to make it seem like there's a big difference. I don't believe God intended the lady to be victimized nor did he want it. You're trying to say God intended an insidious thing happen to an innocent victim but that doesn't mean he wanted it. I still don't believe your position makes rational sense.
Then why would an all-loving, all-powerful God not stop it? Certainly you believe He has the power and authority.
 
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