The heart of the Florida Parental rights in Education Act. A.k.a don’t say gay.

rjs330 said:

And we are saying the indoctrination in the schools today is out of order. It is not acceptable. Schools are indoctrinating kids in things that is none of their business.

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Yes, we go through this all of the time.
There was never a time in American History when the population was totally happy with the educational system they were currently living under.
That’s why we have school boards to fight the same old fight that every generation of American parents fight every 50 years and continually in between.
“Is our children learning?”

Ken-1122 said:

Do you think it should be illegal for parents to indoctorinate their children into their religious beliefs?

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Why should it be illegal? You don't have to think that someone should be punished simply because they do what you think is wrong. They have as much right to do it as I do to state that it's wrong.

I had no choice about faith when I was growing up. I didn't know anyone who didn't go to church until I was 12 (except my maternal grandad). There were no options. I think that was wrong. So when we brought our kids up we made sure that their beliefs were their own business. They weren't aware I was an atheist until their mid teens. By which time they had done a few years at Catholic school.

Indoctrinate? It's one of the ugliest words in the dictionary.

Bradskii said:

Why should it be illegal? You don't have to think that someone should be punished simply because they do what you think is wrong. They have as much right to do it as I do to state that it's wrong.

I had no choice about faith when I was growing up. I didn't know anyone who didn't go to church until I was 12 (except my maternal grandad). There were no options. I think that was wrong. So when we brought our kids up we made sure that their beliefs were their own business. They weren't aware I was an atheist until their mid teens. By which time they had done a few years at Catholic school.

Indoctrinate? It's one of the ugliest words in the dictionary.

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This is how School should be. Basic education. Parents having faith and teaching it to their children is none of your business. Obviously you made a choice as an adult.

Pommer said:

Yes, we go through this all of the time.
There was never a time in American History when the population was totally happy with the educational system they were currently living under.
That’s why we have school boards to fight the same old fight that every generation of American parents fight every 50 years and continually in between.
“Is our children learning?”

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They are learning something. They are learning that white people are bad and if you are white you are racist. They are learning that boys can be girls and that gender is fluid. But they are not learning how to read as we see with all kids who can't read when they graduate. But they can sure tell you about all the different genders and pronouns.

I just saw a video where a teacher was talking about being validated by her students. She felt so validated when a student used her they/them pronouns and one called her mix instead of miss.
Teachers you are not there to be validated by your students. You are there to teach them about Math, Science and English.

ralliann said:

This is how School should be. Basic education. Parents having faith and teaching it to their children is none of your business. Obviously you made a choice as an adult.

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Basic education should include religion. Not being taught a religion, but being taught about religions. Plural.

rjs330 said:

They are learning something. They are learning that white people are bad and if you are white you are racist.

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I'll restrict my comments to what happens in Australia. You can extrapolate as you see fit.

My grandkids are taught Australian history. Which is well nigh impossible to do without telling them that the British came here uninvited and took a land that was already inhabited. On the basis that it belonged to no-one. A point with which the local inhabitants would have agreed. And still do. It belonged to no-one but was most definitely not terra nullius.

It wasn't long ago that the details were skipped over. They came, they saw...but the bit about conquering was omitted. And the consequences, with which we are somewhat ashamedly and tragically still living, were air brushed from the picture.

Now the children are given a more accurate picture of what happened. When land was forcibly taken, tribes massacred and children stolen (right up until a generation ago). Are they made to feel guilty? No, they are not. But they no longer carry a false narrative around with them to pass on to their children. They are taught that mistakes were made and that we should firstly remember that fact and learn from it. And that secondly we should do our best to right the wrongs - which any honest Australian will tell you still exist.

You had pretty much exactly the same situation with original inhabitants. And to be honest, I don't know enough about what the US is doing to right those wrongs. But I've got the impression that you are a very long way behind what we are doing (or trying to do) down here. And your problem has been exacerbated by slavery. You have two terrible events, whereas we just had the one. But just as we still experience the problems that were caused by those in earlier times, so do you. On two fronts.

I keep getting the impression from a lot of people on this forum that the airbrush should be put to use again. That enough time has passed so that the evils of past times can be cleaned up. That the consequences are now inconsequential. More fool them.

And my grandkids are not taught that they are racist. They are taught to take pride in the good things that have been done but to not forget the bad things. They are taught that they live on Gadagal land (the local tribe) and are taught the history and customs of that tribe. And when they sing the national anthem at school events, the first verse is in English and the second in the local Aborigine language. And at certain events there will be a local elder invited to open the ceremony and welcome us all to his land. Or at least the land which he feels he is responsible for looking after.

I still don't think we're doing enough that we could be held up as an example of what should be done. But some people on this forum represent a mentality that suggests that you don't feel you have to do anything at all.

Bradskii said:

I'll restrict my comments to what happens in Australia. You can extrapolate as you see fit.

My grandkids are taught Australian history. Which is well nigh impossible to do without telling them that the British came here uninvited and took a land that was already inhabited. On the basis that it belonged to no-one. A point with which the local inhabitants would have agreed. And still do. It belonged to no-one but was most definitely not terra nullius.

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Are they teaching the ancestors of British today are guilty of the sins of their ancestors?

Ken-1122 said:

Are they teaching the ancestors of British today are guilty of the sins of their ancestors?

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No. We can no more be guilty of what our ancestors did then I can be held responsible for the faults of my father. We are only guilty if we ignore the consequences of past actions and make no attempt to right existing wrongs.

Bradskii said:

No. We can no more be guilty of what our ancestors did then I can be held responsible for the faults of my father. We are only guilty if we ignore the consequences of past actions and make no attempt to right existing wrongs.

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Agreed. Now if we can only get them to teach that in some of these American schools.

Bradskii said:

I'll restrict my comments to what happens in Australia. You can extrapolate as you see fit.

My grandkids are taught Australian history. Which is well nigh impossible to do without telling them that the British came here uninvited and took a land that was already inhabited. On the basis that it belonged to no-one. A point with which the local inhabitants would have agreed. And still do. It belonged to no-one but was most definitely not terra nullius.

It wasn't long ago that the details were skipped over. They came, they saw...but the bit about conquering was omitted. And the consequences, with which we are somewhat ashamedly and tragically still living, were air brushed from the picture.

Now the children are given a more accurate picture of what happened. When land was forcibly taken, tribes massacred and children stolen (right up until a generation ago). Are they made to feel guilty? No, they are not. But they no longer carry a false narrative around with them to pass on to their children. They are taught that mistakes were made and that we should firstly remember that fact and learn from it. And that secondly we should do our best to right the wrongs - which any honest Australian will tell you still exist.

You had pretty much exactly the same situation with original inhabitants. And to be honest, I don't know enough about what the US is doing to right those wrongs. But I've got the impression that you are a very long way behind what we are doing (or trying to do) down here. And your problem has been exacerbated by slavery. You have two terrible events, whereas we just had the one. But just as we still experience the problems that were caused by those in earlier times, so do you. On two fronts.

I keep getting the impression from a lot of people on this forum that the airbrush should be put to use again. That enough time has passed so that the evils of past times can be cleaned up. That the consequences are now inconsequential. More fool them.

And my grandkids are not taught that they are racist. They are taught to take pride in the good things that have been done but to not forget the bad things. They are taught that they live on Gadagal land (the local tribe) and are taught the history and customs of that tribe. And when they sing the national anthem at school events, the first verse is in English and the second in the local Aborigine language. And at certain events there will be a local elder invited to open the ceremony and welcome us all to his land. Or at least the land which he feels he is responsible for looking after.

I still don't think we're doing enough that we could be held up as an example of what should be done. But some people on this forum represent a mentality that suggests that you don't feel you have to do anything at all.

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You see that's what we were and are taught. We learn all about slavery, the conquering of the Indians, how we broke all the treaties and put them in reservations. Sometimes even giving them lsnd then taking it away. We learn all about Jim Crow, lynching and whites only drinking fountains. None of that was or is whitewashed. What kids are also being taught is the racist narrative that white kids today are racist because they are white. That there is nothing good in America, they are guilty.

I even saw a video where white kids had to bow down to blacks kids. That teacher now on suspension. But what on earth made a teacher think he could do something like that? All the anti- white rhetoric.

No one absolutely no one is saying we have to whitewash our history. We are given an accurate picture of what happened and it needs to stay there. But we don't have to make white kids feel like they are guilty over it and they should pay to make it right. Good grief, none of my ancestors had slaves. Well maybe back in the tribal days, but I wouldn't know. They were pretty much slaves themselves.

Now there is a story of a teacher pushing LGBTQ onto kind ACTIVELY telling them to try it out. Confusing one kid so bad that it brought about suicidal ideations. And some say this doesn't happen and we should really trust the teachers.

Ken-1122 said:

Agreed. Now if we can only get them to teach that in some of these American schools.

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So, after 400 years of oppression and repression, of marginalizing, disenfranchising and “keeping down” (societally and legally), BIPOC; the Civil Rights’ Era was America asking these BIPOC people for a “mulligan”, and “everything is alright again”?

Ken-1122 said:

Agreed. Now if we can only get them to teach that in some of these American schools.

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Except that one needs to accept that there are problems before one can begin to address them.

rjs330 said:

But we don't have to make white kids feel like they are guilty over it and they should pay to make it right.

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There's a fault line in Australian society. There's everyone who came here or was born to someone who came here. And there are those that have effectively been here for ever. Part of the oldest continuous culture on the planet. And the difference in wealth, education, opportunity, health...by any metric you'd like to include, those of us who came over in the last couple of hundred years are streets ahead of the original inhabitants.

So we started off on the wrong foot and we haven't done anywhere near enough to right the wrongs that were done over the years. And note I said 'we'. WE haven't done enough. Those of us who are here now. It's always been our responsibility to fix the mess. So yeah, we do have to pay for it. To make it right. My grandkids are doing more in their way than most. Or at least their school is leading them to do so. Learning indigenous language and culture. Inviting local elders to talk about their lives. About their customs. About their problems. Whereas some of my tax dollars is being used to make such advances as have been made. And eventually, my grandkids, in a few years, will have some of their tax money used in the same way. Because this will take generations to fix.

So yeah. They will be paying to make it right. Those who came before us caused the problem. We aren't guilty because of that. But we are responsible to fix it.

Pommer said:

So, after 400 years of oppression and repression, of marginalizing, disenfranchising and “keeping down” (societally and legally), BIPOC; the Civil Rights’ Era was America asking these BIPOC people for a “mulligan”, and “everything is alright again”?

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Just because I don't always agree with the solution doesn't mean I believe everything is alright. My problem is with those who feel it is fair for the pendulum to swing in the opposite direction for a while and I disagree with that idea. You fix injustice by attempting to make everything fair not by purposely discriminating against the sons and daughters of the oppressors.

Pommer said:

Except that one needs to accept that there are problems before one can begin to address them.

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True! And part of the problems is when some people see injustice for too long, after awhile that is all they can see; even when they are looking at something else. That problem needs to be recognized as well.

Bradskii said:

Basic education should include religion. Not being taught a religion, but being taught about religions. Plural.

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No, not unless a parent wants that. School choice comes in here. Religion is a choice adults make. You are proof of that.

Pommer said:

So, after 400 years of oppression and repression, of marginalizing, disenfranchising and “keeping down” (societally and legally), BIPOC; the Civil Rights’ Era was America asking these BIPOC people for a “mulligan”, and “everything is alright again”?

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No we are are asking them to recognize the country recognized the problems and fixed them. It's now against the law to do that and if someone or a company is caught doing it they will suffer the consequences for it.

FWIW, local school boards in Florida are interpreting the law to allow gay and lesbian teachers and staff to keep up pictures of their spouses and family members.

My guess is the actual impact of the law is mostly going to be symbolic.

ralliann said:

No, not unless a parent wants that. School choice comes in here. Religion is a choice adults make. You are proof of that.

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Being taught about religion is part of teaching history. How can it be left out and still be an honest education of history?

comana said:

Being taught about religion is part of teaching history. How can it be left out and still be an honest education of history?

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Because the vast majority of history was not done because of religion, it is not necessary to teach religions of today; especially the version of religious beliefs that was in place back then, which no longer exists today.