NDE Revelation, Bishop Augustine, Calvin, Arminius or Molin on Destiny?

GoldenKingGaze

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What does it mean to be dead to sin? Since it's caveated "dead TO SIN", it helps us understand that it isn't a full death condition, but one that allows us to escape the bondage of sin--if you're dead, your previous master can't get you to do what he wants anymore. Full death would be like that--you've completed your work (sin) and received your wages (death), so no more bondage. But that's no good if you're in that state and still dead. That's why we need the resurrection.
Dead to sin, means not responding to sin and it's power. Ignoring it. It is part of spiritual life.
How can a person have a dead spirit and still be alive? What is that kind of spirit? Is it a ghostly representation of the person? Is it the real person, held captive by a dying body? What is it?
The Spirit gives the body life, the body has appetites that contradict some of spiritual life. Where there is life there is water. The is living water, a metaphor and a substance, Spirit. If you do not have blood you don't have life and so we have Jesus' sacred and powerful blood, to give us spiritual life. Jesus' blood infuses you with righteousness, sanctifies you, warms you, heals you, cleans your heart of dead thinking, like anger and theft, it gives life to the spirit, your heart, not so much thinking of your flesh heart.
So you don't have to hold to the spiritual death idea that is necessary if you believe Adam had to die within 24 hours of his commission of sin.
Adam died in himself as soon as he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. He could no longer walk with Elohim in the garden, as friends, he was ashamed and fearful.

His relationship with God changed. He tried to steal equality with God, as Satan had first tried. He became a son of the Devil. We are born under that, without Christ and His blood, we have no hope.

There is intense energetic spiritual life between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son came from there and was light that gave us life, as in John 1:1-4. Adam had begun sharing in that life in the Garden of Eden before the fall. But he lost it, no longer walking with Elohim as a friend, but instead a thief.

Later murder came into our race, and it climaxed with the murder of Jesus in the dump. The murderers were dead at heart. Christ died in part for them. The just for the unjust. Jesus showed spiritual life. It loves the ones who don't give what they owe.

In the heart of the spiritually dead are ashes, not the living tree with birds in it's branches. But out of dust the seed of Jesus' blood takes root and gives life. It is like the dead sea minerals, fertile. Jesus gives us beauty for ashes.
 
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Derf

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Dead to sin, means not responding to sin and it's power. Ignoring it. It is part of spiritual life.
I think there's more to it. Dead to sin means it can't claim power over us, not just that we ignore it.
The Spirit gives the body life, the body has appetites that contradict some of spiritual life. Where there is life there is water. The is living water, a metaphor and a substance, Spirit. If you do not have blood you don't have life and so we have Jesus' sacred and powerful blood, to give us spiritual life. Jesus' blood infuses you with righteousness, sanctifies you, warms you, heals you, cleans your heart of dead thinking, like anger and theft, it gives life to the spirit, your heart, not so much thinking of your flesh heart.

Adam died in himself as soon as he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. He could no longer walk with Elohim in the garden, as friends, he was ashamed and fearful.
You can't be fearful and ashamed if you're dead. If your dog were dead, and you noticed he was whimpering and sticking his tail between his legs, you'd have to suspect that he wasn't really dead.
His relationship with God changed. He tried to steal equality with God, as Satan had first tried. He became a son of the Devil. We are born under that, without Christ and His blood, we have no hope.

There is intense energetic spiritual life between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son came from there and was light that gave us life, as in John 1:1-4. Adam had begun sharing in that life in the Garden of Eden before the fall. But he lost it, no longer walking with Elohim as a friend, but instead a thief.

Later murder came into our race, and it climaxed with the murder of Jesus in the dump. The murderers were dead at heart. Christ died in part for them. The just for the unjust. Jesus showed spiritual life. It loves the ones who don't give what they owe.

In the heart of the spiritually dead are ashes, not the living tree with birds in it's branches. But out of dust the seed of Jesus' blood takes root and gives life. It is like the dead sea minerals, fertile. Jesus gives us beauty for ashes.
That's all beautifully poetic, but it doesn't help to discern Why "dead" can't mean "dead", but has to mean something else.
 
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Derf

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Its quite speculative. As your post on this matter began, "What if...?" The point is that it become's anybody's guess as to what the author intended,
And we know the author's intention when he explains that "in the day" of creation means during the first six days, not just a single day. That's not speculative. Then the author goes on to use "in the day" again in the same chapter (yes, I know it wasn't written with the chapter breaks). Therefore, when God said, "in the day you eat if the tree...", it wasn't restricted to a 24 hour period by the text.
And yet you agreed that our purpose is to have fellowship with God. That fellowship is eternal life,
That's because it's hard to fellowship when you're a lifeless, rotting corpse.
"life abundantly", even if not as fully realized in this life as it will be in the next-1 Cor 13:12. So what do those have who do not possess that relationship? Certainly something different, something less.
You can have less and still not be dead.
Again, the promise of eternal life begins to be fulfilled and is experienced in the here and now.
Ok. But the promise of death can begin to be fulfilled now, too, with fear and trembling at the prospect of death, which might easily lead to sin, as HEB 2:9 says, because we may as well eat and drink, and get everything we can, since we are going to die (1 Cor 15:32).
It's often actually much easier to go with the flow and accept the Reformed view, even if your's isn't necessarily consistent with the Reformed view on this matter anyway. One problem is that there are many inconsistencies, lack of agreement, among the Reformers to begin with. And many of the early Christians went to their deaths as martyrs holding the view that I espouse here.

Anyway, the Reformers were wrong on many points and as the doctrine of Sola Scriptura managed to separate them from the past, from the Christian legacy- so that they could pick up the Book and read it without external input- error along with disagreement between themselves was inevitable, disagreement that Luther predicted might well happen incidentally.
My point was that just holding to a historical view that may not line up with scripture is a poor position to take.
Again, we have to learn for ourselves just how dead we are when apart from God,
How are you learning anything when you're dead?
And even as we come to know Him, we can draw even nearer to Him yet-and then He draws nearer to us-James 4:8.
Meaning we are slowly becoming less dead all the time? That's an odd watch I look at it.
We have to learn what that means-how the before and after differ from each other.

And yet a real change already takes place in man, now living in union with God, living by the Spirit, under His grace. That's the reason why we can now mortify the flesh, finally overcome sin. Why does man need to change? Is there no internal difference between the old and new man, or is it only a matter of his knowing that physical death has been overcome?
Is that so bad an idea? Why?
And I have this question for you. If death means nothingness, no experience, no awareness, no existence, do those who go to the second death experience anything-or are they no longer existing? Is eternal punishment real?
Good question. Remember that they are resurrected before they are thrown in the lake of fire, so they were for a time not existing, then God brought them back to life. Death now being completely defeated, and with them presumably not wanting to live with His forever, the only place left for them is the place where none of God's goodness resides (they don't want any of God's goodness).
They may breathe but they don't truly have life until they know and live with Him.
Surely that doesn't mean they are dead, just because they don't understand what life is supposed to be.
There's a difference between eternal life-and any other form of existence. There better be-and, again, this is to begin here.
But existence implies life of some sort. Death doesn't imply life of any sort.
 
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zelosravioli

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Exactly: Dead means dead. We will die a physical death, then a spiritual death. Not kinda dead or sorta dead.
It makes no sense that living humans are literally dead, spiritually or physically.
Scripture speaks of being 'under the penalty' of death - which is true, everyone is 'under the sentence of death'. Jesus takes away the sentence that was over us. If your alive - then you haven't paid the penalty yet.

The; Adam suffered a 'spiritual death' narrative - was just the early church commentators only way of rationalizing 'eternal torture' - by dismissing the second death as 'actual death' in the Lake of fire.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I think there's more to it. Dead to sin means it can't claim power over us, not just that we ignore it.
That only happens in glorification after full sanctification, after the resurrection. Although the living in Heaven, like Enoch, Moses and Elijah and even John the Baptist's father, are outside of sin's power before glorification. I am not sure when we will be glorified.

Holy angels are free from temptation, saints and prophets in paradise and Heaven also. But not as fully as angels. And everyone on Earth even saints, can be tempted. But they can by faith, knowledge and the Holy Spirit stand free. Also the it is worth mentioning the gift of tongues, Jesus' blood and the power of the resurrection. Romans 8, it quickens the mortal body, in which sin lives and we are dead to sin and alive to God, if we take this grace. If you don't have the power of the resurrection, you are probably alive to sin and dead to God.
You can't be fearful and ashamed if you're dead. If your dog were dead, and you noticed he was whimpering and sticking his tail between his legs, you'd have to suspect that he wasn't really dead.
Adam was crippled by his sin. Paul in Romans compares the law and the law of non marriage at death, so with Christ, we are dead to the law and to sin it stirs up, because Christ died. We are buried in water baptism and rise with Christ, at least, symbolically.

Did Adam continue to love God and grow stronger after his treason? Could he stand in paradise without sinning? Did he repent? At some point before his body died, his heart died and became still in regards to God's command, to compassion in it's fullness, in his all giving...
That's all beautifully poetic, but it doesn't help to discern Why "dead" can't mean "dead", but has to mean something else.
Jesus used the parable mentioning the tree as a life metaphor. And Beauty for Ashes is from Isaiah.

Dead means still, the still body no longer heals but decays. No immunity in being still. And apart from still, no responding in love, no love motion there is hurt motion, theft, punch... Satan is full of hate for God. We are polarized on Earth, we cannot be unique, we are either into God things or Satan's.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Some think that the sons of God in Genesis 6 were living and breathing fallen angels. When do fallen angels become dead? When they are disembodied? From the OP how many people see the light of life when they die? Ten percent? If someone dies and they enter the light, this at least means that they are open to respond to grace. Some go to a Hell of sorts, and revive wanting to change their ways, so there is hope. It is simple, not ghostly, if they are not responders to grace, with a like, or a love or a praise, or something good, they are dead in spirit now, and alive in the body. Some are dead in body and alive in spirit.
 
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Derf

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Exactly: Dead means dead. We will die a physical death, then a spiritual death.
Can you define and describe what you mean by this spiritual death?
Not kinda dead or sorta dead.
It makes no sense that living humans are literally dead, spiritually or physically.
Scripture speaks of being 'under the penalty' of death - which is true, everyone is 'under the sentence of death'. Jesus takes away the sentence that was over us. If your alive - then you haven't paid the penalty yet.
That seems correct, but if the penalty hasn't been executed yet, and Christ paid the penalty, then why is there still a penalty we have to endure? I think it's because of the nature of the flesh, which nature has to be overcome. If it requires being replaced by something that isn't corruotible, then death of each person is required.
The; Adam suffered a 'spiritual death' narrative - was just the early church commentators only way of rationalizing 'eternal torture' - by dismissing the second death as 'actual death' in the Lake of fire.
Remember that the lake of fire second death is one that is executed AFTER the resurrection of bodies. If those bodies have already experienced the first death, and death has been thrown into the lake of fire, what are those resurrected bodies like? Aren't they also incorruptible, since death no longer exists? And if incorruptible, don't they last forever in the face of a corrupting force, like fire?
 
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fhansen

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And we know the author's intention when he explains that "in the day" of creation means during the first six days, not just a single day. That's not speculative. Then the author goes on to use "in the day" again in the same chapter (yes, I know it wasn't written with the chapter breaks). Therefore, when God said, "in the day you eat if the tree...", it wasn't restricted to a 24 hour period by the text.
We know that at some point in time Adam disobeyed God and ate from the tree.
That's because it's hard to fellowship when you're a lifeless, rotting corpse.
And yet, we're born out of fellowship with God, and can remain that way.
You can have less and still not be dead.
Something is different between those reborn and the not reborn. The latter are characterized in the bible as being sick, wounded, lost, dead, etc. And your quote above seems to conflict with your next one below, no? The living already experience death:
Ok. But the promise of death can begin to be fulfilled now, too, with fear and trembling at the prospect of death, which might easily lead to sin, as HEB 2:9 says, because we may as well eat and drink, and get everything we can, since we are going to die (1 Cor 15:32).
My point was that just holding to a historical view that may not line up with scripture is a poor position to take.
Certainly wouldn't disagree with that. One related problem, however, is that SS adherents often disagree with each other.
How are you learning anything when you're dead?
That's the point: dead in spirit, not the flesh.
Meaning we are slowly becoming less dead all the time? That's an odd watch I look at it.
Yes, the more we know and love God the more of His life we have.
Is that so bad an idea? Why?
Because unless the Spirit indwells man, unless a change is made by God as we turn to Him in faith, then why would we bother acting any differently? We'd still be the same old man, a sinner, not new creations already.
Good question. Remember that they are resurrected before they are thrown in the lake of fire, so they were for a time not existing, then God brought them back to life. Death now being completely defeated, and with them presumably not wanting to live with His forever, the only place left for them is the place where none of God's goodness resides (they don't want any of God's goodness).
And yet it's called "death". Are you now acknowledging that a person can be dead, spiritually, symbollically, whatever, as a result of being separated from God? I'm only saying that we start there, hell-bound at birth, alienated from God, and that this world is the place where we can, with the help of revelation and grace, seek and find life, find Him.
Surely that doesn't mean they are dead, just because they don't understand what life is supposed to be.
It's more than not understanding; it's to exist in a state of injustice, of preferring separation from God, not wanting to know Him, remaining in our pride. Man, simply, is made for communion with God and is, again, lost, sick, dead if apart from Him. That's the basic message of the new covenant.
But existence implies life of some sort. Death doesn't imply life of any sort.
As the second death implies, we're dead when apart from God. It's not enough to merely breathe.
 
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Derf

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That only happens in glorification after full sanctification, after the resurrection. Although the living in Heaven, like Enoch, Moses and Elijah and even John the Baptist's father, are outside of sin's power before glorification. I am not sure when we will be glorified.
Maybe at resurrection, maybe at exhaultation (ascend is a synonym, of sorts, for exhault), but both seem to be at the same time.
Holy angels are free from temptation, saints and prophets in paradise and Heaven also. But not as fully as angels. And everyone on Earth even saints, can be tempted. But they can by faith, knowledge and the Holy Spirit stand free. Also the it is worth mentioning the gift of tongues, Jesus' blood and the power of the resurrection. Romans 8, it quickens the mortal body, in which sin lives and we are dead to sin and alive to God, if we take this grace. If you don't have the power of the resurrection, you are probably alive to sin and dead to God.

Adam was crippled by his sin.
Was he? Can you point to scripture that says that?
Paul in Romans compares the law and the law of non marriage at death, so with Christ, we are dead to the law and to sin it stirs up, because Christ died. We are buried in water baptism and rise with Christ, at least, symbolically.
Agreed.
Did Adam continue to love God and grow stronger after his treason?
We don't know that he didn't. We have some evidence that Adam maintained the creation account and gave it to his offspring, where it eventually made it aboard the ark and survived the flood. It was an important thing to maintsin, as it contained the promise of a redeemed.
Could he stand in paradise without sinning? Did he repent? At some point before his body died, his heart died
Did it? How do you know this?
and became still in regards to God's command, to compassion in it's fullness, in his all giving...
This is conjecture. We know relatively little about what happened to their relationship, but we do know that God continued to relate to both Abel and Cain, and only vanished Cain for murdering Abel while still protecting him with some kind of mark.
Jesus used the parable mentioning the tree as a life metaphor. And Beauty for Ashes is from Isaiah.

Dead means still, the still body no longer heals but decays.
I don't see why it's helpful to introduce another word that doesn't really mean death.
No immunity in being still. And apart from still, no responding in love, no love motion there is hurt motion, theft, punch... Satan is full of hate for God. We are polarized on Earth, we cannot be unique, we are either into God things or Satan's.
Are we? Maybe there are some people who haven't committed themselves to God, but haven't fully rejected God, either.
 
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Derf

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We know that at some point in time Adam disobeyed God and ate from the tree.

And yet, we're born out of fellowship with God, and can remain that way.
Are we? Then Why did Jesus say
Matthew 18:10 KJV — Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

That sounds like some kind of fellowship.
Something is different between those reborn and the not reborn. It's characterized in the bible as being sick, wounded, lost, dead, etc. And your quote above seems to conflict with your next one, no? The living already experience death:
No, the living experience the corrupting effects of a fallen creation, leading to death. The process of dying doesn't mean you're already dead, but that death is coming.
Certainly wouldn't disagree with that. One related problem, however, is that SS adherents often disagree with each other.

That's the point: dead in spirit, not the flesh.
Then please define what you mean by dead in spirit. If our spirit (breath?) comes from God and returns to God when we die, but it's dead, why does it need to return to God?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV — Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Before you reject this passage as misguided due to Solomon's state of mind, remember that God described the same kind of thing in Genesis at man's creation, where dust and God's spirit combined to make a living person.
Genesis 2:7 KJV — And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Yes, the more we know and love God the more of His life we have.
Agreed
Because unless the Spirit indwells man, unless a change is made by God as we turn to Him in faith, then why would we bother acting any differently? We'd still be the same old man, a sinner, not new creations already.

And yet it's called "death".
No, it's called "second death", as if it's a different beast than the first one, and then it's specifically defined, again as if it's a different beast. And it is only after the first one is defeated and destroyed, that a new thing is needed. So why would we assume the first and second death are the same kind of thing.
Are you now acknowledging that a person can be dead, spiritually, symbollically, whatever, as a result of being separated from God?
Is it the result of being separated from God? Or is it the result of being in his presence day and night, while rejecting His right to govern one's behavior? That sounds like torment to me.

Revelation 14:10 KJV — The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

I'm only saying that we start there, hell-bound at birth, alienated from God, and that this world is the place where we can, with the help of revelation and grace, seek and find life, find Him.
Are we hell-bound at birth? Are babies who die destined for hell?
It's more than not understanding; it's to exist in a state of injustice, of preferring separation from God, not wanting to know Him, remaining in our pride. Man, simply, is made for communion with God and is, again, lost, sick, dead if apart from Him. That's the basic message of the new covenant.

As the second death implies, we're dead when apart from God. It's not enough to merely breathe.
If God is necessary for life, the we can't have life apart from Him. But that isn't the case for everybody still alive in earth.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Maybe at resurrection, maybe at exhaultation (ascend is a synonym, of sorts, for exhault), but both seem to be at the same time.
So in soteriology there is the process of salvation, sanctification and glorification. We come to life to God by faith in the process. Infants who pass away, pass onto God and come to life. Keeping the OP.
Was he? Can you point to scripture that says that?
In Genesis God calls for Adam, who is hiding, God does not send forth the refining fire, or Adam may have died, or faired poorly. God has to cut animals and make skins for Adam, so begins covenant. Blood begins to apply. Adam ages and dies, he should have lived forever. Maybe he called on God's name before he died. As Genesis mentions. Adam never gets a mention for his love or reverence. Paul or Jude mentions that even Satan fears God and trembles but has no life in him. The sons of God of Genesis 6 lived to produce offspring and were fallen, dead spirits.
Agreed.

We don't know that he didn't. We have some evidence that Adam maintained the creation account and gave it to his offspring, where it eventually made it aboard the ark and survived the flood. It was an important thing to maintsin, as it contained the promise of a redeemed.
He passed on the account, and what else? Hebrew...
Did it? How do you know this?
God said he would die from the treason, of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The contents are heavy toxic. He became ashamed and hid, no longer walked with God. Or do you assume he did but it is not mentioned? Adam had to kill and eat, labour, farm, and bear children. He had to live under a curse, Abraham didn't. He ate meat but was blessed, and was wealthy as a sign.
This is conjecture. We know relatively little about what happened to their relationship, but we do know that God continued to relate to both Abel and Cain, and only vanished Cain for murdering Abel while still protecting him with some kind of mark.
Abel was becoming righteous and from a distance was beginning to live towards God. Enoch must have come to life, from a young age.
I don't see why it's helpful to introduce another word that doesn't really mean death.
Death in the body involves the end of physical life motion. Death is the spirit the end of life motions towards God. Or sin, which is dead, which is falling short of honouring God, even if you get somewhere.
Are we? Maybe there are some people who haven't committed themselves to God, but haven't fully rejected God, either.
In the process of soteriology, there is sin and repentance and freedom, and growing warm and maybe cold and warm again...
 
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Derf

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So in soteriology there is the process of salvation, sanctification and glorification. We come to life to God by faith in the process. Infants who pass away, pass onto God and come to life. Keeping the OP.

In Genesis God calls for Adam, who is hiding, God does not send forth the refining fire, or Adam may have died, or faired poorly. God has to cut animals and make skins for Adam, so begins covenant. Blood begins to apply. Adam ages and dies, he should have lived forever. Maybe he called on God's name before he died. As Genesis mentions. Adam never gets a mention for his love or reverence. Paul or Jude mentions that even Satan fears God and trembles but has no life in him. The sons of God of Genesis 6 lived to produce offspring and were fallen, dead spirits.

He passed on the account, and what else? Hebrew...

God said he would die from the treason, of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The contents are heavy toxic. He became ashamed and hid, no longer walked with God. Or do you assume he did but it is not mentioned? Adam had to kill and eat, labour, farm, and bear children. He had to live under a curse, Abraham didn't. He ate meat but was blessed, and was wealthy as a sign.

Abel was becoming righteous and from a distance was beginning to live towards God. Enoch must have come to life, from a young age.

Death in the body involves the end of physical life motion. Death is the spirit the end of life motions towards God. Or sin, which is dead, which is falling short of honouring God, even if you get somewhere.

In the process of soteriology, there is sin and repentance and freedom, and growing warm and maybe cold and warm again...
Show me where in scripture you get any of this. Otherwise, I'll just consider it made up garbage and ignore it.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Show me where in scripture you get any of this. Otherwise, I'll just consider it made up garbage and ignore it.
It comes from the early church, there must have been traditions in it from the apostles non letter messages. It's Nicene Creed church theology.

I can make some notes from thirty pages of systematic theology for you. It has scripture in it. From Kevin J Conner on Atonement...

But some scriptures that I have are.
Genesis 3 NLT
The Man and Woman Sin

1The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the LORD God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”

2“Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. 3“It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”

4“You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. 5“God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”

6The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too. 7At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.

8When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the mana and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees. 9Then the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10He replied, “I heard you walking in the garden, so I hid. I was afraid because I was naked.”

11“Who told you that you were naked?” the LORD God asked. “Have you eaten from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat?”

12The man replied, “It was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit, and I ate it.”

13Then the LORD God asked the woman, “What have you done?”

“The serpent deceived me,” she replied. “That’s why I ate it.”

14Then the LORD God said to the serpent,



“Because you have done this, you are cursed

more than all animals, domestic and wild.

You will crawl on your belly,

groveling in the dust as long as you live.

15And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,

and between your offspring and her offspring.

He will strikeb your head,

and you will strike his heel.”



16Then he said to the woman,



“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,

and in pain you will give birth.

And you will desire to control your husband,

but he will rule over you.c



17And to the man he said,



“Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree

whose fruit I commanded you not to eat,

the ground is cursed because of you.

All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.

18It will grow thorns and thistles for you,

though you will eat of its grains.

19By the sweat of your brow

will you have food to eat

until you return to the ground

from which you were made.

For you were made from dust,

and to dust you will return.”

Paradise Lost: God’s Judgment

20Then the man—Adam—named his wife Eve, because she would be the mother of all who live.d 21And the LORD God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.

22Then the LORD God said, “Look, the human beingse have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!” 23So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Genesis 4: 2-4. NLT
Later she gave birth to his brother and named him Abel.

When they grew up, Abel became a shepherd, while Cain cultivated the ground. 3When it was time for the harvest, Cain presented some of his crops as a gift to the LORD. 4Abel also brought a gift—the best portions of the firstborn lambs from his flock. The LORD accepted Abel and his gift,

Genesis 6: 1-5 NLT
Then the people began to multiply on the earth, and daughters were born to them. 2The sons of God saw the beautiful womena and took any they wanted as their wives. 3Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not put up withb humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, their normal lifespan will be no more than 120 years.”

4In those days, and for some time after, giant Nephilites lived on the earth, for whenever the sons of God had intercourse with women, they gave birth to children who became the heroes and famous warriors of ancient times.

5The LORD observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil.

Genesis 18: 1-17. NLT

1The LORD appeared again to Abraham near the oak grove belonging to Mamre. One day Abraham was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest part of the day. 2He looked up and noticed three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he ran to meet them and welcomed them, bowing low to the ground.

3“My lord,” he said, “if it pleases you, stop here for a while. 4Rest in the shade of this tree while water is brought to wash your feet. 5And since you’ve honored your servant with this visit, let me prepare some food to refresh you before you continue on your journey.”

“All right,” they said. “Do as you have said.”

6So Abraham ran back to the tent and said to Sarah, “Hurry! Get three large measuresa of your best flour, knead it into dough, and bake some bread.” 7Then Abraham ran out to the herd and chose a tender calf and gave it to his servant, who quickly prepared it. 8When the food was ready, Abraham took some yogurt and milk and the roasted meat, and he served it to the men. As they ate, Abraham waited on them in the shade of the trees.

9“Where is Sarah, your wife?” the visitors asked.

“She’s inside the tent,” Abraham replied.

10Then one of them said, “I will return to you about this time next year, and your wife, Sarah, will have a son!”

Sarah was listening to this conversation from the tent. 11Abraham and Sarah were both very old by this time, and Sarah was long past the age of having children. 12So she laughed silently to herself and said, “How could a worn-out woman like me enjoy such pleasure, especially when my master—my husband—is also so old?”

13Then the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh? Why did she say, ‘Can an old woman like me have a baby?’ 14Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”

15Sarah was afraid, so she denied it, saying, “I didn’t laugh.”

But the LORD said, “No, you did laugh.”

Abraham Intercedes for Sodom

16Then the men got up from their meal and looked out toward Sodom. As they left, Abraham went with them to send them on their way.

17“Should I hide my plan from Abraham?” the LORD asked. 18“For Abraham will certainly become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed through him. 19I have singled him out so that he will direct his sons and their families to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just. Then I will do for Abraham all that I have promised.”

Exodus 3:1-15. NLT
1One day Moses was tending the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro,a the priest of Midian. He led the flock far into the wilderness and came to Sinai,b the mountain of God. 2There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the middle of a bush. Moses stared in amazement. Though the bush was engulfed in flames, it didn’t burn up. 3“This is amazing,” Moses said to himself. “Why isn’t that bush burning up? I must go see it.”

4When the LORD saw Moses coming to take a closer look, God called to him from the middle of the bush, “Moses! Moses!”

“Here I am!” Moses replied.

5“Do not come any closer,” the LORD warned. “Take off your sandals, for you are standing on holy ground. 6I am the God of your fatherc—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” When Moses heard this, he covered his face because he was afraid to look at God.

7Then the LORD told him, “I have certainly seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their cries of distress because of their harsh slave drivers. Yes, I am aware of their suffering. 8So I have come down to rescue them from the power of the Egyptians and lead them out of Egypt into their own fertile and spacious land. It is a land flowing with milk and honey—the land where the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites now live. 9Look! The cry of the people of Israel has reached me, and I have seen how harshly the Egyptians abuse them. 10Now go, for I am sending you to Pharaoh. You must lead my people Israel out of Egypt.”

11But Moses protested to God, “Who am I to appear before Pharaoh? Who am I to lead the people of Israel out of Egypt?”

12God answered, “I will be with you. And this is your sign that I am the one who has sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God at this very mountain.”

13But Moses protested, “If I go to the people of Israel and tell them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ they will ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what should I tell them?”

14God replied to Moses, “I Am Who I Am.d Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you.” 15God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh,e the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.



This is my eternal name,

my name to remember for all generations.

Exodus 13:20. NLT
20The Israelites left Succoth and camped at Etham on the edge of the wilderness. 21The LORD went ahead of them. He guided them during the day with a pillar of cloud, and he provided light at night with a pillar of fire. This allowed them to travel by day or by night. 22And the LORD did not remove the pillar of cloud or pillar of fire from its place in front of the people.

Hebrews 12: 18-24. NLT
8For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and thatg is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom, and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to a voice that made its hearers beg that no further word be spoken. 20For they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.”h 21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”i

22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels 23in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
 
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Derf

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It comes from the early church, there must have been traditions in it from the apostles non letter messages. It's Nicene Creed church theology.

I can make some notes from thirty pages of systematic theology for you. It has scripture in it. From Kevin J Conner on Atonement...

But some scriptures that I have are.
Genesis 3 NLT
The Man and Woman Sin

1The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the LORD God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”

2“Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. 3“It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”

4“You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. 5“God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”

6The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too. 7At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.

8When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the mana and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees. 9Then the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10He replied, “I heard you walking in the garden, so I hid. I was afraid because I was naked.”

11“Who told you that you were naked?” the LORD God asked. “Have you eaten from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat?”

12The man replied, “It was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit, and I ate it.”

13Then the LORD God asked the woman, “What have you done?”

“The serpent deceived me,” she replied. “That’s why I ate it.”

14Then the LORD God said to the serpent,



“Because you have done this, you are cursed

more than all animals, domestic and wild.

You will crawl on your belly,

groveling in the dust as long as you live.

15And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,

and between your offspring and her offspring.

He will strikeb your head,

and you will strike his heel.”



16Then he said to the woman,



“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,

and in pain you will give birth.

And you will desire to control your husband,

but he will rule over you.c



17And to the man he said,



“Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree

whose fruit I commanded you not to eat,

the ground is cursed because of you.

All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.

18It will grow thorns and thistles for you,

though you will eat of its grains.

19By the sweat of your brow

will you have food to eat

until you return to the ground

from which you were made.

For you were made from dust,

and to dust you will return.”

Paradise Lost: God’s Judgment

20Then the man—Adam—named his wife Eve, because she would be the mother of all who live.d 21And the LORD God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.

22Then the LORD God said, “Look, the human beingse have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!” 23So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Genesis 4: 2-4. NLT
Later she gave birth to his brother and named him Abel.

When they grew up, Abel became a shepherd, while Cain cultivated the ground. 3When it was time for the harvest, Cain presented some of his crops as a gift to the LORD. 4Abel also brought a gift—the best portions of the firstborn lambs from his flock. The LORD accepted Abel and his gift,

Genesis 6: 1-5 NLT
Then the people began to multiply on the earth, and daughters were born to them. 2The sons of God saw the beautiful womena and took any they wanted as their wives. 3Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not put up withb humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, their normal lifespan will be no more than 120 years.”

4In those days, and for some time after, giant Nephilites lived on the earth, for whenever the sons of God had intercourse with women, they gave birth to children who became the heroes and famous warriors of ancient times.

5The LORD observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil.

Genesis 18: 1-17. NLT

1The LORD appeared again to Abraham near the oak grove belonging to Mamre. One day Abraham was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest part of the day. 2He looked up and noticed three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he ran to meet them and welcomed them, bowing low to the ground.

3“My lord,” he said, “if it pleases you, stop here for a while. 4Rest in the shade of this tree while water is brought to wash your feet. 5And since you’ve honored your servant with this visit, let me prepare some food to refresh you before you continue on your journey.”

“All right,” they said. “Do as you have said.”

6So Abraham ran back to the tent and said to Sarah, “Hurry! Get three large measuresa of your best flour, knead it into dough, and bake some bread.” 7Then Abraham ran out to the herd and chose a tender calf and gave it to his servant, who quickly prepared it. 8When the food was ready, Abraham took some yogurt and milk and the roasted meat, and he served it to the men. As they ate, Abraham waited on them in the shade of the trees.

9“Where is Sarah, your wife?” the visitors asked.

“She’s inside the tent,” Abraham replied.

10Then one of them said, “I will return to you about this time next year, and your wife, Sarah, will have a son!”

Sarah was listening to this conversation from the tent. 11Abraham and Sarah were both very old by this time, and Sarah was long past the age of having children. 12So she laughed silently to herself and said, “How could a worn-out woman like me enjoy such pleasure, especially when my master—my husband—is also so old?”

13Then the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh? Why did she say, ‘Can an old woman like me have a baby?’ 14Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”

15Sarah was afraid, so she denied it, saying, “I didn’t laugh.”

But the LORD said, “No, you did laugh.”

Abraham Intercedes for Sodom

16Then the men got up from their meal and looked out toward Sodom. As they left, Abraham went with them to send them on their way.

17“Should I hide my plan from Abraham?” the LORD asked. 18“For Abraham will certainly become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed through him. 19I have singled him out so that he will direct his sons and their families to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just. Then I will do for Abraham all that I have promised.”

Exodus 3:1-15. NLT
1One day Moses was tending the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro,a the priest of Midian. He led the flock far into the wilderness and came to Sinai,b the mountain of God. 2There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the middle of a bush. Moses stared in amazement. Though the bush was engulfed in flames, it didn’t burn up. 3“This is amazing,” Moses said to himself. “Why isn’t that bush burning up? I must go see it.”

4When the LORD saw Moses coming to take a closer look, God called to him from the middle of the bush, “Moses! Moses!”

“Here I am!” Moses replied.

5“Do not come any closer,” the LORD warned. “Take off your sandals, for you are standing on holy ground. 6I am the God of your fatherc—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” When Moses heard this, he covered his face because he was afraid to look at God.

7Then the LORD told him, “I have certainly seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their cries of distress because of their harsh slave drivers. Yes, I am aware of their suffering. 8So I have come down to rescue them from the power of the Egyptians and lead them out of Egypt into their own fertile and spacious land. It is a land flowing with milk and honey—the land where the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites now live. 9Look! The cry of the people of Israel has reached me, and I have seen how harshly the Egyptians abuse them. 10Now go, for I am sending you to Pharaoh. You must lead my people Israel out of Egypt.”

11But Moses protested to God, “Who am I to appear before Pharaoh? Who am I to lead the people of Israel out of Egypt?”

12God answered, “I will be with you. And this is your sign that I am the one who has sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God at this very mountain.”

13But Moses protested, “If I go to the people of Israel and tell them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ they will ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what should I tell them?”

14God replied to Moses, “I Am Who I Am.d Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you.” 15God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh,e the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.



This is my eternal name,

my name to remember for all generations.

Exodus 13:20. NLT
20The Israelites left Succoth and camped at Etham on the edge of the wilderness. 21The LORD went ahead of them. He guided them during the day with a pillar of cloud, and he provided light at night with a pillar of fire. This allowed them to travel by day or by night. 22And the LORD did not remove the pillar of cloud or pillar of fire from its place in front of the people.

Hebrews 12: 18-24. NLT
8For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and thatg is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom, and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to a voice that made its hearers beg that no further word be spoken. 20For they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.”h 21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”i

22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels 23in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
That's a start. Now associate your posted ideas with the bible texts you quoted. (you won't usually need to quote whole chapters)
 
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fhansen

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No, it's called "second death", as if it's a different beast than the first one, and then it's specifically defined, again as if it's a different beast. And it is only after the first one is defeated and destroyed, that a new thing is needed. So why would we assume the first and second death are the same kind of thing.
And yet your objection to the use of of the term "death" as referring to spiritual death was based on your insistence that "death" can only mean nonexistence. But why should it matter if it's the 1st or 2nd death?

In any case other terrns besides death are used to metaphorically describe the plight of fallen man. He's lost, in need of being found, sick, in need of healing. Would he acknowledge that he's lost? No, he knows the location of his home somewhere here on planet earth so he knows where he is, at least until it begins to occur to him that there's much he doesn't know, such as where he came from, if anywhere, what he's here for, if for anything, and where he's going, if anywhere. Similarly he feels pretty healthy so he questions why anyone would say he's sick, at least until he begins to observe his own failings, and begins to wonder why the world fails in so many ways at being healthy, why sin is so prevalent, why we fail to love IOW. These terms all speak of spiritual maladies which have to do with not knowing God stemming from alienation fom Him- Col 1:21-23.
Is it the result of being separated from God? Or is it the result of being in his presence day and night, while rejecting His right to govern one's behavior? That sounds like torment to me.
Rejecting His right to govern is one aspect of being separated from Him. It's God's presence that makes heaven what it is. And if fallen man is united with God in the kind of fellowship bonded by love that He desires for us all, then why do you think that all inevitalby sin, and that we already have a world already where man is decidely not governed by God in any exhaustive manner, but where man's will freely reigns, in fact, as is evdidenced daily by the sin we observe, are victimzied by, and participate in to one degre or another?
Are we hell-bound at birth? Are babies who die destined for hell?
It would still depend on what they want at the end of the day. If we now all enjoyed the fellowship with God that He desires for us, a fellowship consisting of willing subjugation to and obedience of Him based on and compelled by love, we wouldn't be able to even recognize the world we live in now. If babies can love Him with that kind of love then they've attained to their very purpose, that He created them for, and full-on bliss, joy, and happiness would be theirs, incidentally. Maybe that choice becomes theirs at some point, in a manner only God knows. For the rest of us we definitely must choose, and grow in and confirm that choice.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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It would still depend on what they want at the end of the day. If we now all enjoyed the fellowship with God that He desires for us, a fellowship consisting of willing subjugation to and obedience of Him based on and compelled by love, we wouldn't be able to even recognize the world we live in now. If babies can love Him with that kind of love then they've attained to their very purpose, that He created them for, and full-on bliss, joy, and happiness would be theirs, incidentally. Maybe that choice becomes theirs at some point, in a manner only God knows. For the rest of us we definitely must choose, and grow in and confirm that choice.
Yes that is what this thread is about. In part that infants pass straight onto grace and God's presence without first being baptized... There in grace is only a good destiny. And infant's destinies are not found in scripture. Except for a hint like 1 Timothy 4:10. NLT

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle,d for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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That's a start. Now associate your posted ideas with the bible texts you quoted. (you won't usually need to quote whole chapters)
I have text from Millard J Erickson and Kevin J Conner, but I would be interested in Craig Keener. I am learning academic exegesis from Gordon Fee and his book, How to Read the Bible for All it's Worth.

There is an ancient tradition in the rejection of Pelgius and the Pelagian Heresy, which taught that once we have the Gospel, we have the philosophy of Jesus and we use our own strength alone to abide by the Gospel.
 
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Derf

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And yet your objection to the use of of the term "death" as referring to spiritual death was based on your insistence that "death" can only mean nonexistence. But why should it matter if it's the 1st or 2nd death?
How many deaths did God say would be the result of sin? If Adam indeed died "in the day" he ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and that was the punishment God had ordained for that sin, then why would there need to be a second death. It does matter, because now God is made out to be unjust--two punishments when the sentence was only one. Even if one is physical and one is spiritual, the second one is called "second death" (not "remaining death" or "the part of death you haven't experienced yet"), so it is an additional judgment over and above what was promised. That's why I say it is for a different sin. And if for a different sin, and the first sin brought the first death, the two deaths must be different in nature, because the first death is done away with. Experiencing it again after it is defeated means it wasn't really defeated.

And remember that the second death applies to physical bodies as well, since the resurrection happens before the judgment to second death.
In any case other terrns besides death are used to metaphorically describe the plight of fallen man. He's lost, in need of being found, sick, in need of healing.
"Sick" or "lost" might easily be terms of present condition, while "dead" (as in "dead in your sins") could apply to future unavoidable condition. "Sick" and "lost" are fixable. "Dead" isn't, unless it is talking about a future, now avoidable, condition (avoidable now because of Christ's presence on earth as a man).
Would he acknowledge that he's lost? No, he knows the location of his home somewhere here on planet earth so he knows where he is, at least until it begins to occur to him that there's much he doesn't know, such as where he came from, if anywhere, what he's here for, if for anything, and where he's going, if anywhere.
Or it's a sheep metaphor--meaning he's no longer with the shepherd.
Similarly he feels pretty healthy so he questions why anyone would say he's sick, at least until he begins to observe his own failings, and begins to wonder why the world fails in so many ways at being healthy, why sin is so prevalent, why we fail to love IOW. These terms all speak of spiritual maladies which have to do with not knowing God stemming from alienation fom Him- Col 1:21-23.
No doubt, but not "dead".
Rejecting His right to govern is one aspect of being separated from Him. It's God's presence that makes heaven what it is. And if fallen man is united with God in the kind of fellowship bonded by love that He desires for us all,
I don't think "fallen man is united with God in the kind of fellowship bonded by love that He desires for us all". But I don't think that means he's currently dead, either.
then why do you think that all inevitalby sin, and that we already have a world already where man is decidely not governed by God in any exhaustive manner, but where man's will freely reigns, in fact, as is evdidenced daily by the sin we observe, are victimzied by, and participate in to one degre or another?
Fear, according to Hebrews 2:15
[Heb 2:15 KJV] 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
And perhaps Rom 8:15
[Rom 8:15 KJV] 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

It would still depend on what they want at the end of the day. If we now all enjoyed the fellowship with God that He desires for us, a fellowship consisting of willing subjugation to and obedience of Him based on and compelled by love, we wouldn't be able to even recognize the world we live in now. If babies can love Him with that kind of love then they've attained to their very purpose, that He created them for, and full-on bliss, joy, and happiness would be theirs, incidentally. Maybe that choice becomes theirs at some point, in a manner only God knows.
Maybe so.
For the rest of us we definitely must choose, and grow in and confirm that choice.
Agreed.
 
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How many deaths did God say would be the result of sin? If Adam indeed died "in the day" he ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and that was the punishment God had ordained for that sin, then why would there need to be a second death. It does matter, because now God is made out to be unjust--two punishments when the sentence was only one. Even if one is physical and one is spiritual, the second one is called "second death" (not "remaining death" or "the part of death you haven't experienced yet"), so it is an additional judgment over and above what was promised. That's why I say it is for a different sin. And if for a different sin, and the first sin brought the first death, the two deaths must be different in nature, because the first death is done away with. Experiencing it again after it is defeated means it wasn't really defeated.

And remember that the second death applies to physical bodies as well, since the resurrection happens before the judgment to second death.
Jesus gave us the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and Lazarus was in Abraham's presence. There was a great divide. But they were conscious, the rich man was in pain, was he in the second death?
 
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Derf

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Jesus gave us the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and Lazarus was in Abraham's presence. There was a great divide. But they were conscious, the rich man was in pain, was he in the second death?
It's a good question. I tend to think he was. If he wasn't, then why did he have a tongue to cool, when his body wasn't resurrected yet?

The problem with my view (it's always a good idea to consider the problems with our own viewpoints, so we can not hold them too dearly when they are shown to be wrong), is that his brothers who haven't died are not also in torment with him already, and how could that be if everybody has been judged and are either in the lake of fire or in Christ's presence? My answer, weak though it be, is that the story is at least partially a parable, and maybe the timing is what is metaphorical.
 
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