Noah's Flood & the Strait of Hormuz

Hans Blaster

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We are talking about a flood when the level of the Persian gulf was deeper. It is not just Ur that was on the edge, but also the ancient city of Troy that we read about.

And when exactly was that? (Can you show the old beaches higher up than today in the Gulf region?)

Troy wasn't on the Persian Gulf. (It is in the Aegean.)
 
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Hans Blaster

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But when I was in college a computer was the size of a room and a computer bug was a real bug.

If you listed age is close to accurate, then you went to college in the early 70s. Computers were programed in COBOL, ALGOL, FORTRAN, and then C in those days (plus assembly language). Bugs were in programs by then and not insects. (The story about early computers and insects is from the late 40s.) Computers still fill rooms.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Mount Saint Helens was a volcanic eruption, which is an entirely different set of circumstances compared to that of both a global flood, and the necessary power to create the Grand Canyon. Not the same at all.

Geology does explain the sediment layer, you just don't want to hear the answer given.
I've looked at explanations from a hydro-geologist and other researchers. They make far more sense than the 6 million years that the Grand Canyon supposedly took to form. You don't want to hear that information either. The truth is that no one knows for sure. People look at the geology and come to different conclusions. The universal flood theory makes perfect sense to me.
 
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Diamond7

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If you listed age is close to accurate, then you went to college in the early 70s. Computers were programed in COBOL, ALGOL, FORTRAN, and then C in those days (plus assembly language). Bugs were in programs by then and not insects. (The story about early computers and insects is from the late 40s.) Computers still fill rooms.
We used the computer for a survey class I took. We had to punch holes in a card. I messed up my data so I stood outside of the computer room and I would ask people their results as they came out. They were glad to tell me because they wanted to know if they got it right or not. I knew I could not turn in the exact results someone else had so I just took an average and the professor accepted my results. The survey scopes are digital now, so maybe they are more accurate than the optical ones we used back then.
 
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Diamond7

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the 6 million years that the Grand Canyon supposedly took to form. You don't want to hear that information either.
I laughed and laughed at them with their gradualism when the Orville dam almost broke. Over 180,000 people were evacuated from downstream areas.
damdamage1.jpg
 
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Diamond7

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And when exactly was that?
This shows the water level of the Persian Gulf over the years. Perhaps the oldest flood story is one of the earliest stories known to man, The Epic of Gilgamesh. This was an oral tradition before it was recorded so there is some variations and different versions of this Epic. Of course there are lots of ancient flood stores.


screenshot-animations.geol.ucsb.edu-2023.02.21-10_03_06.png
 
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Hans Blaster

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This shows the water level of the Persian Gulf over the years. Perhaps the oldest flood story is one of the earliest stories known to man, The Epic of Gilgamesh. This was an oral tradition before it was recorded so there is some variations and different versions of this Epic. Of course there are lots of ancient flood stores.
So your "evidence" for a higher water level in the past for the Persian Gulf is a flood myth. That's just not going to cut it. Higher water levels (water levels you say have gone down revealing cities) leave beaches above current water levels. They can be found around all kinds of bodies of water. Where are these in the Persian Gulf and when do they date to?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I've looked at explanations from a hydro-geologist and other researchers. They make far more sense than the 6 million years that the Grand Canyon supposedly took to form. You don't want to hear that information either. The truth is that no one knows for sure. People look at the geology and come to different conclusions. The universal flood theory makes perfect sense to me.

I doubt that you have or did, because any geologist would say that the Grand Canyon could not be made by high pressure water, shooting either into it or out of it. That sort of thing would leave tell tale evidence, such as the sides of canyons being virtually vertical and without meandering to follow the flow of the Colorado river. High pressure water does not create semi-circular meanders nor even bends. Such things show that the water flows down the path of least resistance.

The truth is that people do know for sure, and you really don't want to hear anything that conflicts with your religious views.
 
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Diamond7

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So your "evidence" for a higher water level in the past for the Persian Gulf is a flood myth.
You are the only person in the world that does not believe in floods and the power of water. We have a city park and the reason it is a park is that it is a flood zone. Every now and then it fills up with water, but eventually, the water level goes down and we can use it for a park again. As we have explained MANY times flood zones make very rich and fertile land for growing food. We see that with the Mississippi river. There is some very good farmland, but every now and then in the spring, it floods.

They talk about a 100-year flood that has a 1% chance in any given year. Or even a 1000-year flood that has a .01% chance of happening each year. That just talks about how rare, they are and how often they happen. Building codes have to take this into consideration. In Miami, they just changed the code so you have to build 3 feet higher than before. Because of global warming, there is an increase in flooding from storm surges. With the higher ocean levels, their beaches have washed away.

If you do not believe in floods, I have some wonderful land I can sell you in flordia. I can give you a great deal. Do't pay any attention to the people who call it swamp land. You know better so you do not have to worry about that. Just think of all the money we can make investing in that prime real estate.

I am sure you do not believe those myths of the NYC subway flooding. Or the flood myth in New Orleans. You are smarter than that to buy into those urban myths. You must laugh all the way to the bank buying up all that swamp land and flood planes. Knowing it is a myth and floods are not real.
 
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Diamond7

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any geologist would say that the Grand Canyon could not be made by high pressure water
Of course, they have tin foil in their hats to protect them, so they have nothing to worry about from flooding. I have a great deal I can give you on a car since you do not believe in those flood myths. It has a bit of a musty smell. But you can air it out and you are good to go. Don't worry if you find any dead fish. You can always throw them away when you clean them out.

screenshot-lens.google.com-2023.02.22-17_43_37.png
 
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Hans Blaster

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You are the only person in the world that does not believe in floods and the power of water.
Please don't make claims about me that aren't true.
We have a city park and the reason it is a park is that it is a flood zone. Every now and then it fills up with water, but eventually, the water level goes down and we can use it for a park again. As we have explained MANY times flood zones make very rich and fertile land for growing food. We see that with the Mississippi river. There is some very good farmland, but every now and then in the spring, it floods.
I know what a flood plain is. Where are the marks near the Persian Gulf that show those alleged higher water levels in the past?
They talk about a 100-year flood that has a 1% chance in any given year. Or even a 1000-year flood that has a .01% chance of happening each year. That just talks about how rare, they are and how often they happen. Building codes have to take this into consideration. In Miami, they just changed the code so you have to build 3 feet higher than before. Because of global warming, there is an increase in flooding from storm surges. With the higher ocean levels, their beaches have washed away.
I know what "100-year flood" means and about the impacts of rising ocean levels (from global warming) in places like Miami. Where are the marks near the Persian Gulf that show those alleged higher water levels in the past?
If you do not believe in floods, I have some wonderful land I can sell you in flordia. I can give you a great deal. Do't pay any attention to the people who call it swamp land. You know better so you do not have to worry about that. Just think of all the money we can make investing in that prime real estate.
I believe in floods that have been proven. I don't believe in rumored floods. Where are the marks near the Persian Gulf that show those alleged higher water levels in the past?
I am sure you do not believe those myths of the NYC subway flooding. Or the flood myth in New Orleans.
I've seen the video and been to NOLA afterward. Quit making claims about me.
You are smarter than that to buy into those urban myths. You must laugh all the way to the bank buying up all that swamp land and flood planes. Knowing it is a myth and floods are not real.
No one (except you) has ever suggested that those storm derived floods in the last 20 years are "myths". Where are the marks near the Persian Gulf that show those alleged higher water levels in the past?
 
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Gene2memE

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Ur is a city in the Bible that Abraham came from. Troy is a city in the book The Odyssey. This was a required reading when I was in school. It was written in 800 BC. The Bible was written in 1400 BC.

Most likely not.

The Torah was likely written somewhere between 600 BC and 150 BC. There's two main schools of though, one of which dates the composition to around 450-350 BC and another that dates it around 330-250 BC.

I tend to support the idea it was cobbled together from several different texts sometime around the end of the 5th century BC.

Two of the oldest books known to exist.

Half right. The Epic of Gilgamesh was likely composed and first written down around 2100 to 2000 BC. It's one of the oldest texts outside of legal, religious or genealogical records, although the story itself is likely derived from at other tales recorded as early as 2300 BC, of which we have only partial records.

However, the Torah is a relative newcomer. There are literally hundreds of Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, Chinese and Hindu texts that pre-date the composition of the Torah. Not just religious texts, but story-telling literature and poetry. It's likely that the oldest surviving complete play is older than the Torah.
 
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Diamond7

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Please don't make claims about me that aren't true.
Then do not make the claims if you do not think they are not true.
I know what a flood plain is.
Then you know that flood plains flood. Why do you deny that floods happen? Or do you deny the floods we read about in our Bible happened? You do not have to be rescued, saved, healed,
and delivered if you do not want to be. You can deny God's plan of redemption and salvation if you want. Noah's flood means nothing to us today in a literal sense. This is all symbolic. Luke 17 "26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all"

The people in Noah's day were warned and people today are warned. Even we can turn on the news and see the destruction. We see a violent war in Ukraine and earthquakes in Turkey. For those of us that walk with God, we have nothing to fear and nothing to worry about. We can just trust and believe. Psalm 91:7-8, which says, "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked."
Where are the marks near the Persian Gulf that show those alleged higher water levels in the past?

I do not know how many times you want me to repeat that Eden is still under the water. I have put MANY years into study on this. You contribute NOTHING other than your lack of research to prove your bogus opinions. You refuse to do a bit of honest research and study on the issue because you know you will prove your theories wrong. I do not say anything until I do the research to know what I am saying has facts to back me up.
I believe in floods that have been proven.
I keep giving you abundant and overwhelming proof of Noah's flood. Esp now that we have space satellites and photos so we know EXACTLY where Eden was. Even today as the water level drops and we can actually see the settlements of the people who were destroyed in the flood. So all the more people today are without excuse because of the abundance of evidence they are given to examine.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Of course, they have tin foil in their hats to protect them, so they have nothing to worry about from flooding. I have a great deal I can give you on a car since you do not believe in those flood myths. It has a bit of a musty smell. But you can air it out and you are good to go. Don't worry if you find any dead fish. You can always throw them away when you clean them out.

View attachment 328369

Personal attack aside, the Grand Canyon would not have the features it possesses if it was forcefully made by high water pressure. That is a fact.
 
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Diamond7

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What you have repeated is a theory. That's it.
A theory is the beginning, then we begin to look for evidence to substantiate our theory or hypotheses. In this case we need underwater archeology. So we need to study all the cities and settlements that are under the water of a flood somewhere. It is beginning to look like Noah's flood WAS a World Wide Flood. Because the ocean level was rising and there are cities under the water in the Black Sea and in Egypt.

If you want to question my hypotheses then you have to present your evidence for that. This is how science works for people who really want to know the truth.
 
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Diamond7

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Most likely not.
According to Ussher's chronology, he estimated that Moses was born in 1592 BC and died at the age of 120 in 1472 BC. What people do not realize is how much the Hebrew people changed the Bible that we have today.
What you have repeated is a theory. That's it.
Archeology is not a theory, it is science.
 
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AV1611VET

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What people do not realize is how much the Hebrew people changed the Bible that we have today.

After we got It, or before we got It?

And what about science changing the Bible as well?

Like "miracle" to "magic"?

Or "child in the womb" to "fetus"?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Then do not make the claims if you do not think they are not true.

Then you know that flood plains flood. Why do you deny that floods happen?

I don't deny that floods happen. I've seen a few personally. (Quit extrapolating my rejection of specific claims you make to be more broad than they were. It will make this go a bit more smoothly.) But...
Or do you deny the floods we read about in our Bible happened?
Bingo! The bible describes a great flood over the whole of the earth in the time of Noah. There is no evidence of a global flood. Period.
You do not have to be rescued, saved, healed,
and delivered if you do not want to be. You can deny God's plan of redemption and salvation if you want. Noah's flood means nothing to us today in a literal sense. This is all symbolic. Luke 17 "26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all"

The people in Noah's day were warned and people today are warned. Even we can turn on the news and see the destruction. We see a violent war in Ukraine and earthquakes in Turkey. For those of us that walk with God, we have nothing to fear and nothing to worry about. We can just trust and believe. Psalm 91:7-8, which says, "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked."
Irrelevant preaching.
I do not know how many times you want me to repeat that Eden is still under the water.
That seems to be your current claim, but you have also repeatedly said that archeologists are now finding traces of habitation under the upper Persian Gulf, fine, but so what. The refilling of the Persian Gulf was not a catastrophic flood event. It took thousands of years. It makes a poor analogy for a flood story.

But you have *also* repeatedly claimed that recent decreases in the level of the Euphrates are revealing formerly flooded out cities. The level of the Persian Gulf is not decreasing, so no city under it has dried out.
I have put MANY years into study on this. You contribute NOTHING other than your lack of research to prove your bogus opinions. You refuse to do a bit of honest research and study on the issue because you know you will prove your theories wrong. I do not say anything until I do the research to know what I am saying has facts to back me up.

So you claim.
I keep giving you abundant and overwhelming proof of Noah's flood. Esp now that we have space satellites and photos so we know EXACTLY where Eden was. Even today as the water level drops and we can actually see the settlements of the people who were destroyed in the flood. So all the more people today are without excuse because of the abundance of evidence they are given to examine.
Again, that's not the kind of "flood" that GEnesis describes. I'm not sure what all this business about "Eden" is for. I thought A&E were kicked out of it. It shouldn't have cities. (If the text is to believed, which I don't anyway.)
 
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dlamberth

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A theory is the beginning, then we begin to look for evidence to substantiate our theory or hypotheses. In this case we need underwater archeology. So we need to study all the cities and settlements that are under the water of a flood somewhere. It is beginning to look like Noah's flood WAS a World Wide Flood. Because the ocean level was rising and there are cities under the water in the Black Sea and in Egypt.

If you want to question my hypotheses then you have to present your evidence for that. This is how science works for people who really want to know the truth.
That the Persian Gulf is hiding Eden is a theory your presenting as fact.
The timeline of the Persian Gulf filling up does not work with the timeline of the Biblical Eden.
But beyond that there's no reason think that Eden is any more than an ancient middle-eastern creation myth.
On the other side, when I put on my spiritual hat, Eden is the whole of the biosphere of the Earth.
 
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