who are the seminary educated wof scholars?

now faith · Jan 26, 2022

spiritfilledjm said:
Also, he did, at least, earn a degree from a bible institute in Florida that is now Trinity College of Florida. It didn't become accredited with the Association of Biblical Higher Education until 96 but is not accredited regionally with SACS. He also graduated from Wheaton with a degree in anthropology. However, he was ordained by a group of baptist clergy at a church in Florida as well.

Too bad he was unqualified for the pastorate since he didn't have an accredited degree...all those millions he brought to Christ means nothing I guess.

You know, in some ways it seems like a backhanded way to discredit
others of another denomination.
My Dad was a Pastor, Preacher and in the 1960s would preach on Radio.
He was invited to preach at every Free Will Baptist conference i can remember.
He was Ordained as a Free Will Baptist Minister.
So long after he passed, I mentioned My dad was a Baptist Preacher when signing my kids into Christian School.
The Independent Fundemtal Baptist, called and paid me a visit.
I thought it was about their curriculum, but no it was to grill me on my dads education.
They asked what College did he graduate from?
Seminary?
My dad had already passed collage level exams for business reasons.
I was a kid in the 1960s, it may have been the 1950s before I was born.
I know one thing, I have dads preaching Bible and its marked with his sermon notes, and outlines from cover to cover.
Dads convictions would not allow him to take a salary from the Church.
He was successful at business owning two corner lot Gas Stations with service bays.
My point is that it was the Free Will in Baptist that provoked their inquiry.

spiritfilledjm · Jan 27, 2022

now faith said:
You know, in some ways it seems like a backhanded way to discredit
others of another denomination.
My Dad was a Pastor, Preacher and in the 1960s would preach on Radio.
He was invited to preach at every Free Will Baptist conference i can remember.
He was Ordained as a Free Will Baptist Minister.
So long after he passed, I mentioned My dad was a Baptist Preacher when signing my kids into Christian School.
The Independent Fundemtal Baptist, called and paid me a visit.
I thought it was about their curriculum, but no it was to grill me on my dads education.
They asked what College did he graduate from?
Seminary?
My dad had already passed collage level exams for business reasons.
I was a kid in the 1960s, it may have been the 1950s before I was born.
I know one thing, I have dads preaching Bible and its marked with his sermon notes, and outlines from cover to cover.
Dads convictions would not allow him to take a salary from the Church.
He was successful at business owning two corner lot Gas Stations with service bays.
My point is that it was the Free Will in Baptist that provoked their inquiry.

The IBF folks told my mother-in-law that she wasn't saved because she was not saved at an event using the KJV...she accepted Christ at a Billy Graham crusade. That's ridiculous that they questioned you about your father. Like, what business of it was there's lol.

Also, I wasn't trying to discredit Graham, I was just stating the fact that he was ordained by Baptists.

now faith · Feb 10, 2022

spiritfilledjm said:
The IBF folks told my mother-in-law that she wasn't saved because she was not saved at an event using the KJV...she accepted Christ at a Billy Graham crusade. That's ridiculous that they questioned you about your father. Like, what business of it was there's lol.

Also, I wasn't trying to discredit Graham, I was just stating the fact that he was ordained by Baptists.

Its not for us to judge Gods Grace.
I do remember a big crisis over Billy Graham at the Church I mentioned.
I believe that if I am going to a Church I have to abide in their rules, as far as dress and not causing discord.
One of the members made a big to do over Billy Grahams statement about God will find a way to offer His Grace to everyone.
Then Reverend Graham said I belive you will see Muslims , and Buddhist in Heaven.
Well it was a hard core bashing of Graham, so I asked the person where did you hear this? He said YouTube.
Back then I had to get one of my Children to show me YouTube, and find the statement.
After I listened to the whole story I realized what the intention of Reverend Graham was in saying this,He did not mean Muslims would be worshipping Allah in Heaven, He meant God would bring all people the Gospel, and no matter what their religions were some would accept Jesus Christ.
Well I did walk up and confronted the man about what he was gossiping about, and how He had twisted the meaning.
I suppose He thought I did not know how to find YouTube.
He stammered around had no rebuttle then walked away.
No apology, no hey I got that wrong, just stayed quite.
I hear many people say that King James Only believers think everyone else is going to Hell because they do not use the King James.
This may be true, or not I am a King James person ,its the only Bible I care to read.
Since I was a Child it was the only Bible I knew, and for untold millions of people it is for them as well.
Word of Faith Believers often use The King James to Preach from.
Its not the Baptist Bible lol.
Many Baptist lean to Calvinism, and I do not think Calvinest embrace the King James much.
What I will say to someone is today some groups are using Bibles that are done in paraphrase, and I cannot agree with using such as your main Bible.
Preachers can paraphrase in a sermon, as long as the content is a truthful accounting of Gods Word.
I had pastor friend that joined with me on some mission work.
one day we talked, and He made his feelings clear on the King James.
I was going to go to his Church, but He told me I would not like it because of the Bible I use.
we maintained a social friendship, but He eventually became very bitter toward me.
So the sword cuts both ways, some are really over the top no matter what Bible is used.
God Bless

The Liturgist · Feb 19, 2022

now faith said:
You left out John MacArthur, He is very well off as well.
His book sales, and sitting on boards had give him prosperity too.

I was under the impression John MacArthur is less Word of Faith and more of a de rigeur evangelical, with a focus on expositional preaching similar to that of Chuck Smith, memory eternal. I have to confess I was offended by his criticisms of Hank Haanegraaf after The Bible Answer Man converted with his family to Eastern Orthodoxy, and had been diagnosed with cancer, but I admire MacArthur’s Strange Fire conference and initiative, and his resolute effort to keep his church open during the unconstitutional shutdown of religious services in parts of the US in 2020, an effort rivaled ironically by some Russian Orthodox bishops and priests, such as retired Archbishop Nikolai in Las Vegas.

The Liturgist · Feb 19, 2022

spiritfilledjm said:
Was accreditation even a thing back in his day?

Yes. The oldest seminary in the United States is Harvard, whose presidents included Cotton Mather, one of the orchestrators of the Salem Witch Trials. Harvard transitioned from Puritanism to Congregationalism (my denomination) before being taken over by Unitarians in the 1780s, along with about half of the Congregational parishes in Boston (the Christian Congregationalists then formed Andover Divinity School, which has since affiliated with Harvard and mainly caters to the UCC, which dominates much of the Congregational scene; there is sadly only one traditional Congregational church in Boston and that is Park Street Church, which I display a picture of next to my posts). I believe Yale is the second oldest seminary, and the oldest continually Christian seminary.

The Liturgist · Feb 19, 2022

By the way, I have a very high opinion of many of the Bible Colleges mentioned here, including those lacking traditional accreditation, but which have 501(c)3 status.

Oral Roberts University is also a bastion of Christianity in downtown Los Angeles, which is sadly an increasingly Christian-hostile environment.

hislegacy · Feb 21, 2022

The Liturgist said:
I was under the impression John MacArthur is less Word of Faith

John MacArthur is a cessationist and preaches against all things Word of Faith.

The Liturgist said:
By the way, I have a very high opinion of many of the Bible Colleges mentioned here, including those lacking traditional accreditation, but which have 501(c)3 status.

Oral Roberts University is also a bastion of Christianity in downtown Los Angeles, which is sadly an increasingly Christian-hostile environment.

Oral Roberts University is in Tulsa, OK - not Los Angels California.

Oral Roberts University's ranking in the 2022 edition of Best Colleges is Regional Colleges West, #7. Its tuition and fees are $31,558. Oral Roberts University (ORU) is a Christian institution in Tulsa, Okla., that was founded by Evanglist Oral Roberts.

now faith · Mar 6, 2022

The Liturgist said:
I was under the impression John MacArthur is less Word of Faith and more of a de rigeur evangelical, with a focus on expositional preaching similar to that of Chuck Smith, memory eternal. I have to confess I was offended by his criticisms of Hank Haanegraaf after The Bible Answer Man converted with his family to Eastern Orthodoxy, and had been diagnosed with cancer, but I admire MacArthur’s Strange Fire conference and initiative, and his resolute effort to keep his church open during the unconstitutional shutdown of religious services in parts of the US in 2020, an effort rivaled ironically by some Russian Orthodox bishops and priests, such as retired Archbishop Nikolai in Las Vegas.

Oh the Strange fire conference!
Odd how the pot has a pigs head?
disclaimer : I do not know or care if John MacArthur is a Mason

spiritfilledjm · Mar 10, 2022

dominion2013 said:
Isn't jmac against faith to be healed & thus drives his people to the wof healers?

Yup

Daniel Marsh · Mar 13, 2022

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/419468152772850472/
John MacArthur Exposes Freemasonry as Satanic Worship
John MacArthur Exposes Freemasonry as Satanic Worship

Simon the Tanner · Nov 23, 2022

The problem here is a lack of understanding (or acknowledgement) of the philosophy behind WoF teaching and Kenneth Hagin's school Rhema Bible College. The belief is that seminaries tend to fill people with unbelief, because they focus on the intellectual rather than the spiritual. WoF people tend to believe in Spirit-led ministry. As the OP has indicated, there are weaknesses in that approach, but as he failed to acknowledge (I admit I didn't read every line of every comment so I could be wrong) there are also weaknesses in the academic approach. I have spent the last seven years documenting much of the misinformation coming from scholarly types about charismatics due to their theological bigotry. John MacArthur said that Joel Osteen never mentioned Christ in his book "Your Best Life Now", when in fact he mentioned Jesus or Christ eight times. I have never known any WoF minister to spread lies about their theological opponents. And some of the most absurd exposition I've ever heard came from people with graduate degrees from seminaries. John MacArthur also said that you could take the mark of the beast and still be saved. Justin Peters quoted MacArthur in his exposition of 1 Cor. 14:2, claiming that "God" should be translated "god" because Paul was referring to pagan tongues being spoken to pagan gods. John Piper said that God ordained 9/11, as well as every roll of the dice in every board game.

At the same time there's plenty to criticize within the WoF community. I'm personally opposed to claiming the title of "doctor" based on a substandard degree. If you want to be acknowledged as a scholar then do the work of a scholar from an accredited seminary where you'll be required to study Greek or Hebrew along with a number of other grueling courses. Personally I don't see the advantage to the regular minister of learning biblical languages. If you can read English (or whatever your native language is) you should be able to read commentaries and translations from the linguists and comprehend their observations. I'm also opposed to the anti-intellectualism from many WoF teachers. I personally know of a Rhema graduate who has a master's degree in apologetics from Southwestern Assemblies of God College. Another Rhema grad from Brazil has a Ph.D. and has taught on a university level there, although his doctorate wasn't in theology. I also know a woman who attended Rhema who earned a master's (and possibly a doctorate - don't recall for sure) from Oral Roberts University. Then there's Bishop Steven Evans in the UK, who has a master's degree from an Anglican seminary and is WoF. None of these people are high profile ministers or televangelists. They're just people who love God and are doing their best to serve Him with excellence. But there's no question that they're in the minority within the WoF world, and some are still anti-seminary in their rhetoric. As for the televangelists, yeah there's a dearth of scholarship coming from those guys. Creflo Dollar's "dogs beget dogs" take on the imago dei was atrocious. Copeland's anthropology even more so. Fortunately you don't hear that so much in the 21st century, although there's still far too much emphasis on money.

Jesus didn't choose scholars as His 12 disciples, but he did choose a scholar in Saul of Tarsus who wrote the bulk of the epistles that give us our theology. The church world needs to grasp the fact that both intellectualism and spirituality are needed in ministry. The scholarly crowd could do with a little more pursuit of the power of the Holy Ghost and the miraculous, and the charismatic world could do with a little more pursuit of the intellectual. I don't think it's any coincidence that Pentecostals/Charismatics are doing the bulk of the evangelization around the world. But it's also no coincidence that they've also produced the bulk of controversy on doctrine. I long for the day when both camps set aside their differences and learn from each other.

spiritfilledjm · Nov 28, 2022

Simon the Tanner said:
The problem here is a lack of understanding (or acknowledgement) of the philosophy behind WoF teaching and Kenneth Hagin's school Rhema Bible College. The belief is that seminaries tend to fill people with unbelief, because they focus on the intellectual rather than the spiritual. WoF people tend to believe in Spirit-led ministry. As the OP has indicated, there are weaknesses in that approach, but as he failed to acknowledge (I admit I didn't read every line of every comment so I could be wrong) there are also weaknesses in the academic approach. I have spent the last seven years documenting much of the misinformation coming from scholarly types about charismatics due to their theological bigotry. John MacArthur said that Joel Osteen never mentioned Christ in his book "Your Best Life Now", when in fact he mentioned Jesus or Christ eight times. I have never known any WoF minister to spread lies about their theological opponents. And some of the most absurd exposition I've ever heard came from people with graduate degrees from seminaries. John MacArthur also said that you could take the mark of the beast and still be saved. Justin Peters quoted MacArthur in his exposition of 1 Cor. 14:2, claiming that "God" should be translated "god" because Paul was referring to pagan tongues being spoken to pagan gods. John Piper said that God ordained 9/11, as well as every roll of the dice in every board game.

At the same time there's plenty to criticize within the WoF community. I'm personally opposed to claiming the title of "doctor" based on a substandard degree. If you want to be acknowledged as a scholar then do the work of a scholar from an accredited seminary where you'll be required to study Greek or Hebrew along with a number of other grueling courses. Personally I don't see the advantage to the regular minister of learning biblical languages. If you can read English (or whatever your native language is) you should be able to read commentaries and translations from the linguists and comprehend their observations. I'm also opposed to the anti-intellectualism from many WoF teachers. I personally know of a Rhema graduate who has a master's degree in apologetics from Southwestern Assemblies of God College. Another Rhema grad from Brazil has a Ph.D. and has taught on a university level there, although his doctorate wasn't in theology. I also know a woman who attended Rhema who earned a master's (and possibly a doctorate - don't recall for sure) from Oral Roberts University. Then there's Bishop Steven Evans in the UK, who has a master's degree from an Anglican seminary and is WoF. None of these people are high profile ministers or televangelists. They're just people who love God and are doing their best to serve Him with excellence. But there's no question that they're in the minority within the WoF world, and some are still anti-seminary in their rhetoric. As for the televangelists, yeah there's a dearth of scholarship coming from those guys. Creflo Dollar's "dogs beget dogs" take on the imago dei was atrocious. Copeland's anthropology even more so. Fortunately you don't hear that so much in the 21st century, although there's still far too much emphasis on money.

Jesus didn't choose scholars as His 12 disciples, but he did choose a scholar in Saul of Tarsus who wrote the bulk of the epistles that give us our theology. The church world needs to grasp the fact that both intellectualism and spirituality are needed in ministry. The scholarly crowd could do with a little more pursuit of the power of the Holy Ghost and the miraculous, and the charismatic world could do with a little more pursuit of the intellectual. I don't think it's any coincidence that Pentecostals/Charismatics are doing the bulk of the evangelization around the world. But it's also no coincidence that they've also produced the bulk of controversy on doctrine. I long for the day when both camps set aside their differences and learn from each other.

As with everything, there needs to be balance. Hermeneutics, in my opinion, does take out the spiritual and relies solely on the academic side of interpreting scripture within the context of the scriptures along with context of the time period, who the writer was writing to, society of the time and all of that. Is it completely useless? Not at all. Is studying...by the Spirit (idk how else to put it lol), by maybe asking God to give you the wisdom to understand what He is saying through the writer, completely useless? Not at all. A good mixture of both is paramount.

hislegacy · Dec 7, 2022

Simon the Tanner said:
The problem here is a lack of understanding (or acknowledgement) of the philosophy behind WoF teaching and Kenneth Hagin's school Rhema Bible College. The belief is that seminaries tend to fill people with unbelief, because they focus on the intellectual rather than the spiritual. WoF people tend to believe in Spirit-led ministry.

Interesting - and where did that come from, because it sure is not taught at Rhema. I am a graduate of the school.

Kenneth W. Hagin went to and went to Southwestern. The vast majority of the staff holds Masters and above, from a variety of Universities. With 262 campuses and more than 20,000 students Globally - there is a wealth of instructors with all types of degrees.

In 32 years I have never taught or been taught such things - so I'll have to ask for your source or please remove it.

Bobber · Feb 9, 2023

Daniel Marsh said:
So, I guess there are no scholars in the WoF movement.

Seems to me the noble Bereans in Acts 17 weren't caught up at all on credentials from men. They merely tested things out with the word of God.

Daniel Marsh · Feb 18, 2023

Bobber said:
Seems to me the noble Bereans in Acts 17 weren't caught up at all on credentials from men. They merely tested things out with the word of God.

They were not part of our culture, nor we theirs. think it over friend.

Bobber · Feb 18, 2023

Daniel Marsh said:
They were not part of our culture, nor we theirs. think it over friend.

There was probably a lot of educated individuals (so called) especially among the Judiszers. Probably been to the Rabbinical schools. The Bereans still insisted they assess the meaning of scriptures' comparing one to another without somebody seeking to use education of men to trump their assessments.

hislegacy · Feb 23, 2023

Daniel Marsh said:
So, I guess there are no scholars in the WoF movement.

Yah caught us! Not one scholar - in an organization that has 282 International schools - 80,000 graduates - a student body of 20,000 globally.

How on earth do we reach so many without a single scholar.....?

who are the seminary educated wof scholars?

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