Recent Biblical Archaeology

J_B_

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It doesn't really "prove" Genesis's narrative is completely true.

I never said it did. I was tempted to say more in the OP, but chose to be brief.

... the actual evidence doesn't suggest the sort of widespread invasion and slaughter in the Bible actually took place ...

I've not decided if people naturally add extensive interpretation to a text or if it's all those years of training in English class to go deeper and deeper into literary interpretation. Regardless, it's an interesting exercise during one's training in history to work on stripping away interpretation to read a text simply for what it says and no more. It's not an easy thing to do. I have to admit I've never been that fond of historical minimalists, but I've learned to appreciate Kitchen's minimalist comments on Hebrew incursions into Palestine. Given the atmosphere, it seems appropriate.
 
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I never said it did. I was tempted to say more in the OP, but chose to be brief.



I've not decided if people naturally add extensive interpretation to a text or if it's all those years of training in English class to go deeper and deeper into literary interpretation. Regardless, it's an interesting exercise during one's training in history to work on stripping away interpretation to read a text simply for what it says and no more. It's not an easy thing to do. I have to admit I've never been that fond of historical minimalists, but I've learned to appreciate Kitchen's minimalist comments on Hebrew incursions into Palestine. Given the atmosphere, it seems appropriate.

It is very hard -- if not downright impossible -- to keep a discussion on Creationism within the realm of creation.

People tend to want to leave that subject pronto and go to other subjects: like the Fall, the Flood, the Exodus, etc. and so on.

Then they wonder why they don't understand the Creation week.

Flat earth? no problem, they know it forwards and backwards.

Gap theory? no problem, they know it forwards and backwards.

Creatio ex nihilo? big problem, they can't separate it from creatio ex materia.
 
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FireDragon76

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I never said it did. I was tempted to say more in the OP, but chose to be brief.



I've not decided if people naturally add extensive interpretation to a text or if it's all those years of training in English class to go deeper and deeper into literary interpretation. Regardless, it's an interesting exercise during one's training in history to work on stripping away interpretation to read a text simply for what it says and no more. It's not an easy thing to do. I have to admit I've never been that fond of historical minimalists, but I've learned to appreciate Kitchen's minimalist comments on Hebrew incursions into Palestine. Given the atmosphere, it seems appropriate.

It's not called Palestine, that's a Roman name for their territory in the land. It was called Canaan.

We can know with reasonable certainly that the Torah went through multiple redactions based on multiple traditions, and doesn't reflect a single historian's viewpoint from a "God's eye" perspective.
 
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J_B_

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It's not called Palestine, that's a Roman name for their territory in the land. It was called Canaan.

It was called many things.

We can know with reasonable certainly that the Torah went through multiple redactions based on multiple traditions, and doesn't reflect a single historian's viewpoint from a "God's eye" perspective.

I heard you the first time.
 
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Estrid

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I never said it did. I was tempted to say more in the OP, but chose to be brief.



I've not decided if people naturally add extensive interpretation to a text or if it's all those years of training in English class to go deeper and deeper into literary interpretation. Regardless, it's an interesting exercise during one's training in history to work on stripping away interpretation to read a text simply for what it says and no more. It's not an easy thing to do. I have to admit I've never been that fond of historical minimalists, but I've learned to appreciate Kitchen's minimalist comments on Hebrew incursions into Palestine. Given the atmosphere, it seems appropriate.
For accuracy of "known" history
V original sources, digging, checking
other sources-

Check G Washington's army
at Valley Forge being providentially
saved by a big run of shad fish up
the river.

Some attribute it to Divine Intervention.

Like Israelis with their not so true stories,
or the Japanese with the divine wind that
saved them from the Mongols.

What really happened at Valley
Forge?
 
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J_B_

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For accuracy of "known" history
V original sources, digging, checking
other sources-

Check G Washington's army
at Valley Forge being providentially
saved by a big run of shad fish up
the river.

Some attribute it to Divine Intervention.

Like Israelis with their not so true stories,
or the Japanese with the divine wind that
saved them from the Mongols.

What really happened at Valley
Forge?

Historical revision is common across all worldviews.
 
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Hvizsgyak

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Of course the Bible gets some things right,
there's no " jaw drop" ipon mention of Egypt,
cows, and diversity other such that the Bible gets right.
Where do you see " jaw drop" for
"secular" archeologists? It's kind of
a weird thing you are proposing.

Oh, and, very important:
What difference do you imagine there
is between " secular" and, what, " Bible"
archaeologists?

Is there " jaw drop" at proof that many
things described in the bible are simply
fiction? See " flood ".

Here is the one of the videos describing the archeological find:


Now tell me are you "for" or "against" Christians. You seem very defensive. Why? In today's world, if we Christians want to prove that our religion is true and valid to the world, we have to go out and prove it ourselves. Main stream archeology isn't going to be helpful. They are even questioning if the Hebrews even helped in building the pyramids or even if they existed at all.
 
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Tuur

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Now tell me are you "for" or "against" Christians. You seem very defensive. Why? In today's world, if we Christians want to prove that our religion is true and valid to the world, we have to go out and prove it ourselves. Main stream archeology isn't going to be helpful. They are even questioning if the Hebrews even helped in building the pyramids or even if they existed at all.
Um...The Great Pyramid at Giza was built around 2,600 BC. The date of the Exodus is debated, but are around 1,400 BC. This means that the pyramids at Giza were already ancient when Moses saw them.
 
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Tuur

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Historical revision is common across all worldviews.
Like Caligula essentially making a Roman temple his front porch? Some dismissed that this was written by his detractor. Then it was discovered that he actually had done it. Just because histories can and have been subject to revision does not mean that all historical accounts have been revised.
 
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Estrid

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Here is the one of the videos describing the archeological find:


Now tell me are you "for" or "against" Christians. You seem very defensive. Why? In today's world, if we Christians want to prove that our religion is true and valid to the world, we have to go out and prove it ourselves. Main stream archeology isn't going to be helpful. They are even questioning if the Hebrews even helped in building the pyramids or even if they existed at all.
"For or against". Such sadly typical
binary thinking for Christian
fundamentalists.
I'm neither for nor against. It's a
somewhat weird alien religion that
has little to no influence in my life.

Some of the wacky and obviously false
things people believe is integral and essential
to their faith, that intrigues me.

Like how people anage to think there
really was a flood.

Your question ( for/ against) and vainglorious
Quest to "prove" indicates who is "defensive".

I've nothing to be defensive about.

"Prove religion is valid" is an odd concept.

You will never prove God or any of the
supernatural events. Those ( see " flood')
that can be investigated prove to be nothing
but stories about something that didn't happen.

If your "biblical archaeologists" find otherwise
it only shows they are frauds preying on the gullible.

Real science is into data, and constant
questioning. You find it disturbing that anyone
would "even" question something?

That is the exact attutide of someone who
is clueless about science or any other sort of
investigation. Perfect attitude for the con
men to take advantage of by feeding what them
"Itching ears" want to hear.

You can show that some things in the Bible
are reasonably accurate. So? That does
not make Christianity valid, or invalid.

You can show that a lot of the bible
speaks of things that didn't happen.

That does not make Christianity invalid
or valid.

It does though point to how thoughtful
people might want to clean up their acts
and eliminate nonsense including anti science,
and anti intellectual thought patterns.

Such things sully a generally noble faith
and discredit those who behave so.

ETA you responded to nothing in
my post. Some reason for that?
 
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AV1611VET

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Some of the wacky and obviously false things people believe is integral and essential to their faith, that intrigues me.

Is that why you put them on IGNORE?

If you put them on IGNORE because they intrigue you, what do you do if they bore you?
 
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AV1611VET

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"For or against". Such sadly typical binary thinking for Christian fundamentalists.

Jesus was a "binary thinker."

Luke 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
 
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Hvizsgyak

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Um...The Great Pyramid at Giza was built around 2,600 BC. The date of the Exodus is debated, but are around 1,400 BC. This means that the pyramids at Giza were already ancient when Moses saw them.

I never said anything about the Great Pyramids; I just said pyramids and according to this timeline (and many others) the Egyptians were building pyramids close to when Moses was around (100 year difference only). I'm not familiar with what exact pyramids biblical authors said Moses was working on.

 
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Hvizsgyak

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Of course the Bible gets some things right,
there's no " jaw drop" ipon mention of Egypt,
cows, and diversity other such that the Bible gets right.
Where do you see " jaw drop" for
"secular" archeologists? It's kind of
a weird thing you are proposing.

Oh, and, very important:
What difference do you imagine there
is between " secular" and, what, " Bible"
archaeologists?

Is there " jaw drop" at proof that many
things described in the bible are simply
fiction? See " flood ".

Well, you wanted me to respond to your post so for starters, I did make one mistake and that was to think I was talking to another friendly person who shared the excitement of great archeological finds. From your post though, I see we don't share the same views. As you are a skeptic of the Triune God of the Bible, I am a skeptic of people who claim their versions of historical events are the absolute truth even though it's a theory and everything else is some historical myth or nonsense. Wasn't the Big Bang Theory held as the main explanation of how the universe came about? Now since James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) was setup in space, some scientists have questions about the theory and what JWST has found out there in the universe. Same with Darwin's Theory of Evolution, molecular biology has challenged parts of that theory.
Yes, the peer reviewed scientific explanations probably are the best solutions to many scientific questions but these explanations are only based on what scientists know about our world and let me tell you, there is still alot science doesn't know about the Earth and sea not alone, our solar system, the galaxy or the universe.

No one today lived during these historical periods so information about them is good deductible guessing and cannot be absolutely proven. So let others have their say about historical events.

And the reason I feel confident about God's Word is because I have had things in my life happen that I feel can only be explained by a supreme being so I pursued this Supreme Being logically to the Triune God of the Bible. I don't expect you to believe me but I believe and that is what is important. God bless.
 
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Ophiolite

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I am a skeptic of people who claim their versions of historical events are the absolute truth even though it's a theory and everything else is some historical myth or nonsense.
You were replying to @Estrid , but a couple of points you made caught my eye.
I'll anticipate Estrid's response to your comment above - she'll correct me if I have her wrong. She and I and any reasonable, educated person would be sceptical of "people who claim their versions of historical events are the absolute truth" . I would go further and say I would be thoroughly dismissive of them, considering them to be ignorant charlatans. Consequently, I'm not sure in what way your comment is relevant. Perhaps you will clarify.
Wasn't the Big Bang Theory held as the main explanation of how the universe came about? Now since James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) was setup in space, some scientists have questions about the theory and what JWST has found out there in the universe.
The Big Bang Theory has its origins almost a century ago, although it was not until the early 1960s that detection of the background radiation put the nail in the coffin of its main rival, Steady State Theory. Before and since the theory has undergone major developments as new data became available, or old data was reinterpreted. The JWST data is no different in that regard.

You also say "some scientists have questions about the theory". This suggests you have a distorted understanding of what science is and how it operates. Of course scientists have questions about the theory. If they didn't they wouldn't be scientists.

A theory represents the pinnacle of scientific understanding. It is the product of observation, hypothesis formation, experimentation and testing. Rinse and repeat. It doesn't, ever, get any better than a theory. But every theory can itself get better by the aforementioned efforts. That's all that's happening here.

I was always aesthetically attracted to Steady State theory and still harbour a faint and unjustified hope BBT theory may yet be overturned. Unfortunately for that wish there is no practical chance that the JWST data will bring that about. It will just lead to adjustments, clarification and refinement of the existing theory.

Same with Darwin's Theory of Evolution, molecular biology has challenged parts of that theory.
Yes, exactly the same. You seem to misunderstand this also. Current evolutionary theory itself evolved from Darwin's work. There have been many changes, exciting, intriguing, challenging, fascinating . . . the list goes on. That's what science does. It pushes the boundaries of understanding. It's almost as if you think challenges to current scientific indicate some sort of weakness, when those challenges are the inherent strength of the discipline.
 
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