Daniel Marsh

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Your question is interresting enough to review.

"Later after leaving Paradise, animals would be used for clothing, labor and food. But since humans had no need for clothing or labor and since they could freely eat from the trees of the garden, they had no need for animals in Paradise. “In the state of innocence man would not have had any bodily need of animals—neither for clothing, since then they were naked and not ashamed, there being no inordinate motions of concupiscence—nor for food, since they fed on the trees of paradise—nor to carry him about, his body being strong enough for that purpose.”((ST IA, 96, i, ad. 3))" Were Adam and Eve Vegetarians in the Garden of Eden? - Howard I. Schwartz Ph.D.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Genesis 9:3 Parallel Verses [⇓ See commentary ⇓]
Genesis 9:3, NIV: Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

Genesis 9:3, ESV: Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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"
God's sacrifice in the Garden, at the very least then reveals the legitimacy of animal sacrifice for human benefit. Abel, a keeper of sheep, understood how to make an acceptable sacrifice using animals (Gen 4:3-4). Why was Abel a keeper of sheep? For what purpose? Perhaps to eat? Moreover, the description of Abel's sacrifice is instructive. Notice the phrase, "and of their fat portions" (Gen 4:4). This is similar to the peace offerings offered later where the "fat" was burned and the meat was eaten (Lev 3:9). Cain offered a grain offering. Later in the Old Testament we learn that grain offerings were accompanied by peace offerings (Lev. 3; 6:14-23). So, in Genesis 4 we may be observing the first coupling of peace and grain offerings. If so, then part of the offering may have been eaten by man.

Jabal, was the father of those who had livestock (Gen 4:20). Were any of these animals used in sacrifices? Were they used for meals? The Bible does not say. Noah received a special command by God to take 7 pairs of each clean animal upon the Ark (Gen 7:2-3). Clean animals were used for sacrifices. After the flood Noah offered an acceptable sacrifice to God (Gen 8:20-21). How did Noah know how to make an acceptable sacrifice? Did he just continue the practice from Abel? (Gen 4:3-4). Clearly, there was at least two animal sacrifices after the Fall and before the Flood; and probably several others.

It is important to note that many animal sacrifices in the Old Testament were often accompanied by a meal; God's portion was offered upon the altar and the worshipper's portion was consumed in a meal. Some covenants were confirmed with sacrifices, followed by meals (Gen 26:28-31; 31:54; Exod 24:3-11). Peace offerings (compare Abel's sacrifice, Gen 4:3-4) involved community meals (Lev 7:11-38; Deut 12:6-7; 27:7, etc.). Such meals and sacrifices were held at important points in Israel's history (Deut 27:7; 1 Chron 16:1-3; 2 Chron 7:1-10, etc.). And Paul compares the Lord's Supper to these sacrificial meals (1 Cor 10:16-21). Though the Mosaic Law was not officially given until Moses (Rom 5:13-14) and the Bible is silent on the issue, the fact that peace offering accompanied with meals remains a very real possibility in the society prior to Noah (Rom 2:14-15).

Some argue that Adam was given specific instructions in the Garden to only eat vegetation and not meat. They quote:

Genesis 1:29-30 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on.


Does this affirm that Adam and Eve were merely vegetarians? Not necessarily. The text only states the positive command that man could eat vegetation; it does not explicitly forbid the eating of meat. So, while the text does dictate that man may eat vegetation it does not outlaw the eating of meat. Rather than establishing a diet for the Garden, with the repeated use of "every," Genesis 1:29-30 may just be laying the groundwork for God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:16-17).

Others continue the argument and state that the first animals were eaten in obedience to Genesis 9:1-4. The text says:

And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.


Genesis 9:1-3 is a re-issuing of the original lordship command given to Adam; even the "blessing" to "be fruitful and and multiply" (Gen 9:1, 7) is divinely similar to Genesis 1:28. The 'beasts of the earth, birds of the heaven, and fish of the sea' of Genesis 9:1-3 are all mentioned in Genesis 1:20-26, 28-30. So, we witness a re-creation or a renewal in Genesis 9:1-3. As John Gill wrote:

This is a renewal, at least in part, of the grant of dominion to Adam over all the creatures; these obeyed him cheerfully, and from love, but sinning, he in a good measure lost his power over them, they rebelled against him; but now though the charter of power over them is renewed, they do not serve man freely, but are in dread of him, and flee from him.




So, as Genesis 9:1-3 is not speaking of a brand new creation, but rather a renewal, so is it not necessarily speaking of a new command that man can eat animals, whom he already had full dominion over (Gen 1:26; 2:20). So, Genesis 9:1-3 is not necessarily a new permission to eat meat; especially seeing that meals involving the eating of meat may have accompanied earlier sacrifices after the Fall. However, there was definitely a new prohibition not to eat meat mingled with blood (Gen 9:4).

So, Genesis 9:1-3 refers to re-Creation. God adds the command not to eat meat with blood (Gen 9:4), Why? Because life is in the blood (Lev 17:11; cf. Gen 9:5-6). This reinforces the message implicit in all sacrifices; that redemption from sin would be "with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot" (1 Pet 1:19-20; Gen 3:15; 21; John 1:29; Rom 3:25: 1 Cor 5:7; 1 Pet 1:2)."
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Bottom line today,

Romans 14

Easy-to-Read Version

Don’t Criticize Others​

14 Be willing to accept those who still have doubts about what believers can do. And don’t argue with them about their different ideas. 2 Some people believe they can eat any kind of food,[a] but those who have doubts eat only vegetables. 3 Those who know they can eat any kind of food must not feel that they are better than those who eat only vegetables. And those who eat only vegetables must not decide that those who eat all foods are wrong. God has accepted them. 4 You cannot judge the servants of someone else. Their own master decides if they are doing right or wrong. And the Lord’s servants will be right, because the Lord is able to make them right.
5 Some people might believe that one day is more important than another. And others might believe that every day is the same. Everyone should be sure about their beliefs in their own mind. 6 Those who think one day is more important than other days are doing that for the Lord. And those who eat all kinds of food are doing that for the Lord. Yes, they give thanks to God for that food. And those who refuse to eat some foods do that for the Lord. They also give thanks to God.
7 We don’t live or die just for ourselves. 8 If we live, we are living for the Lord. And if we die, we are dying for the Lord. So living or dying, we belong to the Lord. 9 That is why Christ died and rose from death to live again—so that he could be Lord over those who have died and those who are living.
10 So why do you judge your brother or sister in Christ? Or why do you think that you are better than they are? We will all stand before God, and he will judge us all. 11 Yes, the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘Everyone will bow before me;
everyone will say that I am God.’”
12 So each of us will have to explain to God about the things we do.

Don’t Cause Others to Sin​

13 So we should stop judging each other. Let’s decide not to do anything that will cause a problem for a brother or sister or hurt their faith. 14 I know that there is no food that is wrong to eat. The Lord Jesus is the one who convinced me of that. But if someone believes that something is wrong, then it is wrong for that person.
15 If you hurt the faith of your brother or sister because of something you eat, you are not really following the way of love. Don’t destroy anyone’s faith by eating something they think is wrong. Christ died for them. 16 Don’t allow what is good for you to become something they say is evil. 17 In God’s kingdom, what we eat and drink is not important. Here is what is important: a right way of life, peace, and joy—all from the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever serves Christ by living this way is pleasing God, and they will be accepted by others.
19 So let’s try as hard as we can to do what will bring peace. Let’s do whatever will help each other grow stronger in faith. 20 Don’t let the eating of food destroy the work of God. All food is right to eat, but it is wrong for anyone to eat something that hurts the faith of another person. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else that hurts the faith of your brother or sister.
22 You should keep your beliefs about these things a secret between yourself and God. It is a blessing to be able to do what you think is right without feeling guilty. 23 But anyone who eats something without being sure it is right is doing wrong. That is because they did not believe it was right. And if you do anything that you believe is not right, it is sin.
 
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Phronema

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Judging and being concerned about another's shortcomings is two different things. Just saying.....

It depends on the context if we're going to get into semantics.

If you're "concerned" in a loving way that's one thing because you're loving your neighbor as yourself, but if you're concerning yourself with someone else's business/sins, and judging them on account of their shortcomings that's judging them when in reality we all are sinners, and are told not to judge others for their sins.

In the post you originally quoted I was referring to that latter portion, and not the former.
 
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Diamond7

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We are no longer in the original
Biodiverse ecosystems are self-contained. I would think that the best food for a species is the food that evolved along with that species. This is the attempt of the paleo diet, also known as the Paleolithic or caveman diet. But people should be working on the Eden diet and eating the foods that were in Eden.
 
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YeshuaFollower

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Thank you. I’ve been vegan for the last 8 years, hence why I am struggling with this.

The word humane means “having or showing compassion or benevolence”

So my next question would be - how do we compassionately or benevolently slaughter an animal that does not want to die? And no animal wants to be turned into our food. They seek pleasure and fear pain just as we do. Anyone with a pet knows this. I do realize the Bible tells us that it’s ok - which is why I am struggling with this.
in Biology, the teeth shows what we can eat as a species, we do have the teeth required to eat meat, God made us this way, yes we can eat meat. however i agree with the fact we, as north Americans, eat way too much if it. We need some as meat contains amino acids not found in vegetables or grains. we should opt as much as possible for natural and a more humane framing as a source but this is not easy to find.

a link about amino acids;

Peace,

JFF
 
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FireDragon76

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Biodiverse ecosystems are self-contained. I would think that the best food for a species is the food that evolved along with that species. This is the attempt of the paleo diet, also known as the Paleolithic or caveman diet. But people should be working on the Eden diet and eating the foods that were in Eden.

The Paleo diet's rationale is mostly pseudoscience. Almost all the benefits are due to simply avoiding highly processed food, which is good advice in general, and based in actual science.

People have been eating grains for tens of thousands of years. Horticulture is quite old. Agriculture emerged ten thousands years ago, but people have been gathering wild grains, planting seeds, and pulling up tubers for alot longer than that.

Plant-based diets are, on the whole, quite healthy, and the longest lived populations in the world, such as in Loma Linda, California, Nicoya, Costa Rica, and the Greek island of Ikaria, get the vast majority of their calories from plants. Okinawans also live to be quite old, and traditionally their diet was made of mostly sweet potatoes, bitter melon, and tofu, though this has been changing in younger generations due to the influence of Japanese and American cultures.
 
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FireDragon76

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What's the point? Many who eat animal products are not getting enough vitamin B12 from what they eat, and would suffer just as much as any vegan who is not getting enough vitamin B12, which can be through supplements or fortified items. But there is a high incidence of serious health issues generally later in life though not necessarily so, including heart attacks or strokes from clogged arteries, high blood pressure, cancers, diabetes, morbid obesity, and rheumatoid arthritis, which can be avoided and possibly reversed only with the right way of eating which is without animal products and avoiding processed foods but with meals made from whole foods. Supplements which should be had anyway would still have this totally worthwhile.

A dirty secret of modern farming is that almost all farm animals have to have B-12 supplemented in their diets. Modern agricultural practices usually involve the soil being virtually sterile (devoid of microbial life), preventing B-12 from developing in the food that animals eat. In the modern human diet, B-12's presence it's almost all due to supplementation in one form another.

There are currently two known, reliable plant sources of B-12 in the modern world. One is chlorella, which is a single-celled algae that was researched as a food by the Soviets. The other is called Man Kai, which is an aquatic plant traditionally eaten in Thailand by peasants. It is known in English as "duckweed". Chlorella is a strange food on its own, and it must be processed to be fully nutritive (crushing the cell walls), but it can be incorporated into recipes, such as green banana smoothies.

Vegan offerings are becoming more and more creative. New food technologies are opening up. Fortification is becoming more advanced. Agriculture is also advancing rapidly. We are also making great strides in dietary science.
Veganism is hard to sustain because many people lack the time and dietary awareness to make a go of it. They end up malnourished because of poor planning and implementation. That said, vegetarianism is still an option. There is a continuum.

I was a vegan years ago. I only gave it up when I became a Christian. My health steadily declined. I adopted a vegan diet again during the pandemic, and my health has since improved. So, lesson learned, I suppose.
 
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Diamond7

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Plant-based diets are, on the whole, quite healthy
I try to avoid meat. I already have one stint, so there is no reason to push it and have to get more.
 
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FireDragon76

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in Biology, the teeth shows what we can eat as a species, we do have the teeth required to eat meat, God made us this way, yes we can eat meat.

Early humans were scavengers, and our teeth reflect that, as they are hardly different from other apes that eat diets that are mostly just plants. Early hominids used stone tools to eat carcasses killed by larger animals, so they didn't need changes in the structure of their teeth to survive.

however i agree with the fact we, as north Americans, eat way too much if it. We need some as meat contains amino acids not found in vegetables or grains. we should opt as much as possible for natural and a more humane framing as a source but this is not easy to find.

Meat contains no amino acids that humans need to survive. Unlike obligate carnivores, humans are capable of synthesizing the amino acid taurine.

Interestingly enough, most animals synthesize all the vitamin C their bodies need. But not humans. Which is why an animal like a cat doesn't need fruit or vegetables in their diet. Humans need about 10mg of vitamin C a day to prevent scurvy, a disease that can cause your gums to deteriorate and your teeth to fall out (sailors used to get it frequently, since they didn't eat fresh food). But we need up to 70-90mg a day to experience optimum health.

Early homininds were not eating those carcasses for meat per se, but to eat the fat from bone marrow and get extra calories to survive. Not necessary an optimum diet, but it allowed for human survival in a precarious environment. Early humans would also eat nuts for the same reason, with the same tools - nuts are a rich source of fat, and have more calories per gram than most foods.
 
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Diamond7

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but people have been gathering wild grains, planting seeds, and pulling up tubers for alot longer than that.
That is the difference between natural selection and artificial selection. If a seed plants itself, that is natural selection. If people gather the seeds to plant in the spring, that is, artificial and it becomes a different sort of seed. Like corn, they have to gather the seed before it falls off the ear of corn. Everything in Noah's ark, by definition, is "artificial". In Genesis 2:5 "haś·śā·ḏeh" (הַשָּׂדֶה) means "the cultivated field" or "the tilled field". This of course is what the neolithic revolution was all about. Going from wild to domesticated animals and cultivated plants. We still use words like animal husbandry and the science of botany. So by scientific definition, there could not have been any wild animals or plants on Noah's Ark. No one seems to understand that.

There is a HUGE difference with natural selection there is a 3% reproduction rate. With cultivation, we can reach a rate of 97%. We have maple trees growing wild outback somewhere. There are enough seeds to plant in a forest every year. Johnny Appleseed planted orchards from the seeds left over from apple cider. My grandmother told me the town we live in was an apple orchard before they began to build houses after the war.

In hong kong, people go to the fish market and buy fish that is still alive. They put it in the pan when it is still moving. When it quits moving, it is cooked and they eat it. People would not be interested in eating seed that was so old it was falling to the ground by itself. God puts the seed in the fruit so after we eat the fruit we can plant the seed and produce more food to eat.
p7m2gn.jpg
 
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FireDragon76

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Apparently the "Carnivore Diet" is extremely healthy. Listen to what Jordan Peterson or Dr. Ken Berry has to say about it.

Neither one are nutritionists or dieticians by training.
 
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BurningBush84

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Neither one are nutritionists or dieticians by training.
Well one is a Doctor and i doubt Jordan is lying. Jordan said the carnivore diet basically cured his and his daughters auto immune diseases. Ive heard and read so many positive testimonies on the carnivore diet , its unreal.
 
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FireDragon76

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Well one is a Doctor and i doubt Jordan is lying. Jordan said the carnivore diet basically cured his and his daughters auto immune diseases. Ive heard and read so many positive testimonies on the carnivore diet , its unreal.

There isn't enough scientific evidence to suggest that's anything but an interesting anecdote, and not wise to recommend the diet as "healthier" in general. Most meat in is relatively high in saturated fat and cholesterol, and there's enough evidence that a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol contributes to an early death. In fact, the evidence is the same quality and quantity as the evidence that smoking causes lung cancer.
 
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BurningBush84

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There isn't enough scientific evidence to suggest that's anything but an interesting anecdote, and not wise to recommend the diet as "healthier" in general. Most meat in is relatively high in saturated fat and cholesterol, and there's enough evidence that a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol contributes to an early death. In fact, the evidence is the same quality and quantity of the evidence that smoking causes lung cancer.
Well anybody can go to Dr. Ken Berry's YouTube channel and he debunks alot of those negative things you just said about meat, and he provides the research studies to back it up. But I support the freedom to eat what you want. Demonizing eggs and meat in favor of bugs and soy burgers is wrong imo.
 
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Fantine

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Unfortunately plants aren't pure either.
There are genetic modifications.
Chemical sprays.
Terminator seeds that bankrupt small farmers, especially in third world countries, because they can no longer harvest seeds from previous harvests.
The food processing industry is corrupt, whether we are discussing meat or veggies.
 
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That's debunked "science."

The body can handle saturated fat. What the body can't handle is the trans-fats of heat-processed vegetable oils.
You need to do a better job at getting the word to

American Heart Association among others
 
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