Ancestral Sin ~vs~ Original Sin

St_Worm2 · Feb 13, 2023

Greetings everyone, I'm interested in knowing what the doctrine of "Ancestral Sin" teaches, and also how it relates to and differs from the doctrine of "Original Sin" (in a general or summary sense, at least for now, if that's possible).

I'm trying to learn more (and also confirm what I already know), not "debate" the topic. Is that ok on this board?

Thank you for your help ahead of time

God bless you!!

--David

ArmyMatt · Feb 13, 2023

it depends on what you mean. if you mean original sin in that Adam and Eve were the first two humans to sin, then you are fine (which is why it’s also called the ancestral sin).

but the error in much of the Western view is that you are born guilty of the sin of Adam, not just subject to the effects of that first sin. so, the issue for us is more of original guilt.

St_Worm2 · Feb 13, 2023

ArmyMatt said:
The error in much of the Western view is that you are born guilty of the sin of Adam, not just subject to the effects of that first sin. so, the issue for us is more of original guilt.

Hello ArmyMatt, I thought that was the biggest difference between the two doctrines. Thank you for confirming that fact for me :oldthumbsup:

So, what things do the two doctrines hold in common?

Both teach that sin entered into our realm (and into each person's life individually) due to Adam's transgression in the Garden, and that death became a reality for all of us because of sin. Yes?/No?

Assuming that you will answer "yes" to my last question, is there any other common ground?

What about all of us being born with a depraved/fallen nature, one that is inclined towards sin instead of righteousness? Is that something that is held by East and West together, or just by the West alone?

Thanks again for your help with this!

--David

ArmyMatt · Feb 14, 2023

St_Worm2 said:
What about all of us being born with a depraved/fallen nature, one that is inclined towards sin instead of righteousness? Is that something that is held by East and West together, or just by the West alone?

no, we agree with that. we would agree that we are born with the after effects of Adam’s sin (death, corruption, and an inclination to sin). I think the main difference is the guilt.

St_Worm2 · Feb 14, 2023

Thank you again @ArmyMatt

Now, for my 3rd, and hopefully final question, if the difference is the guilt, what difference does the guilt make?

For instance, let's say the EOC added "original guilt" into its doctrine of Ancestral Sin and/or the RCC removed it from their doctrine of Original Sin, what would the result or effect be on Orthodox or Catholic congregants (in a real-world sense, that is). IOW, how would such a change affect people's lives in a practical sense, either now, or in eternity, or both? What would making such a change in doctrine mean for them?

Thank you!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - just to be clear, I'm not asking these questions with the intention of making some yet to be disclosed grand theological point to you. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of this topic (as I said earlier), that's all (and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to help me with it

).
.

ArmyMatt · Feb 14, 2023

St_Worm2 said:
For instance, let's say the EOC added "original guilt" into its doctrine of Ancestral Sin and/or the RCC removed it from their doctrine of Original Sin, what would the result or effect be on Orthodox or Catholic congregants (in a real-world sense, that is). IOW, how would such a change affect people's lives in a practical sense, either now, or in eternity, or both? What would making such a change in doctrine mean for them?

how are you guilty of sins you didn’t commit?

ArmyMatt · Feb 14, 2023

St_Worm2 said:
p.s. - just to be clear, I'm not asking these questions with the intention of making some yet to be disclosed grand theological point to you. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of this topic (as I said earlier), that's all (and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to help me with it ).

just read this part, haha. no worries.

St_Worm2 · Feb 14, 2023

ArmyMatt said:
just read this part, haha. no worries.

I'm still considering what you've said so far, and considering again what the RCC and Protestants (like myself) believe and why. Hopefully I'll return with some additional thoughts/questions tomorrow (Dv).

In the meantime though, I must say that I'm not only feel'n the love here at CFcom today, I'm see'n it too :tutu:

There are hearts floating all over my desktop screen right now

God bless you!!

--David

ArmyMatt · Feb 14, 2023

St_Worm2 said:
I'm still considering what you've said so far, and considering again what the RCC and Protestants (like myself) believe and why. Hopefully I'll return with some additional thoughts/questions tomorrow (Dv).

well, what do you think about our position so far?

St_Worm2 · Feb 15, 2023

ArmyMatt said:
well, what do you think about our position so far?

I'm still reviewing the basis for the West's belief in "original guilt" but, at the same time, I am VERY interested in Ancestral Sin's opposing stance on the matter (and the basis for that).

Sadly, I haven't had much time to pursue this study for the last couple of days, but I'm sure I will soon (Dv).

Thanks again and I look forward to continuing our discussion :oldthumbsup:

God bless you!!

--David

IoanC · Feb 16, 2023

The original sin seems to have a lot to do with pride and disobedience before God. Even though we have not rejected God's direct commandment in the Garden of Eden, it can be assumed we would have done the same as St. Adam and Eve. In essence, it means that we are becoming godlike without God. God can make us like Him through His Grace only, however.

ArmyMatt · Feb 16, 2023

St_Worm2 said:
I'm still reviewing the basis for the West's belief in "original guilt" but, at the same time, I am VERY interested in Ancestral Sin's opposing stance on the matter (and the basis for that).

well, ask yourself how you can be guilty of something you didn’t do?

Lukaris · Feb 16, 2023

Whenever I read Romans 5:12-14 even when I was lapsed from being Christian, I always felt St. Paul was saying we are subject to death (not the guilt) of the original sin. We all sin but our individual behavior varies between good & bad.

ArmyMatt · Feb 17, 2023

Lukaris said:
Whenever I read Romans 5:12-14 even when I was lapsed from being Christian, I always felt St. Paul was saying we are subject to death (not the guilt) of the original sin. We all sin but our individual behavior varies between good & bad.

yep, and that variance between good and bad is also because of sin.

fhansen · Feb 22, 2023

When the RCC speaks of inheriting the guilt they mean that we contract the sin itself. We possess the same sin, spiritual death, sometimes referred to as "the death of the soul" that equates to the alienation from God that Adam opted for, or acheived in any case, by his act of disobedience. That's what the state, not the act, of OS is. Man is lost, sick, dead, if apart from God, whom man was made for communion with. To be outside of the will of God is, by its nature, sin. And that's the state we're born into, "born dead", so to speak, without direct knowledge of God, in need of rebirth.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

Jesus came to reconcile and restore this vital relationship, to resurrect us from the dead.

Lukaris · Feb 22, 2023

In Romans 1, 2, 3 St. Paul lays out the consequences of the fall. Romans 1 & 3 have the emphasis on fallen humanity as a whole. Romans 2 has the emphasis on the individual & how we vary as individuals within the good & bad of our fallen state. While many people do not have an assurance of salvation by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10), God will determine those who otherwise did good or bad ( John 5:22-30).

abacabb3 · Feb 22, 2023

They're the same thing.

ArmyMatt · Feb 22, 2023

fhansen said:
When the RCC speaks of inheriting the guilt they mean that we contract the sin itself. We possess the same sin, spiritual death, sometimes referred to as "the death of the soul" that equates to the alienation from God that Adam opted for, or acheived in any case, by his act of disobedience. That's what the state, not the act, of OS is. Man is lost, sick, dead, if apart from God, whom man was made for communion with. To be outside of the will of God is, by its nature, sin. And that's the state we're born into, "born dead", so to speak, without direct knowledge of God, in need of rebirth.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

Jesus came to reconcile and restore this vital relationship, to resurrect us from the dead.

what do you mean by without direct knowledge of God?

ArmyMatt · Feb 22, 2023

abacabb3 said:
They're the same thing.

depends on who you ask.

abacabb3 · Feb 22, 2023

ArmyMatt said:
depends on who you ask.

True, but being that when they translated both Mogila's confession and Dositheus' in the Greek its ancestral sin and in Latin it's original sin. The canons of Carthage I think follow the same. So, canonically, they are the same thing.

Ancestral Sin ~vs~ Original Sin

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