Pseudoscience Vortex

Diamond7

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That was not a compliment really since I don't actually believe you when your says that your dad was a scientists and a doctor AND a stage hypnotist.
Oh, I see, that is fine. He actually had 22 degrees, diplomas, and certificates for Hypnotism. I gave them to the Historical Society and I just gave them his operating-examine table. They have it on display and they have been talking about him on their website because he had four generations of patients. But if you do not believe any of that is true that is no problem for me. The biggest point of discussion was he use to have this rocket ship ride in his waiting room for the kids. Everyone remembers that and likes to talk about it.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Humans evolved from creatures similar to flatworms, so presumably the mechanism for memory is similar.
It wouldn't surprise me if some of the mechanisms of memory were similar - there are many commonalities in the neurochemistry of creatures of all levels of complexity (that have some form of neural network), and individual cells and organs can 'learn' or habituate in various ways, and there is epigenetic 'memory' where some acquired changes in gene expression can be inherited.

But that doesn't mean we store what we popularly call memories (e.g. declarative - episodic & semantic, and procedural - skills & tasks) in the same way and in the same place(s). In fact, we know from neuroscience that these memories are stored in the brain, and the typical mechanism involves changes in the connectivity between brain cells.

Some scientists like Pim van Lommel or Rupert Sheldrake do not believe memory is stored locally in the brain or body at all, that the brain acts as an antenna for consciousness. Even plants and micro-organisms (like slime molds) that lack nervous systems display goal-directed behavior, even learning, suggestive of a kind of consciousness. Which is why some biologists and physicists see this as suggestive of panpsychism as an explanation for consciousness.
There is no scientific evidence that the brain acts as an antenna for consciousness, and neuroscientific studies indicate the contrary - every recognised aspect of consciousness can be modified, quantitatively or qualitatively, by interfering with brain activity. This would be analogous to interfering with the insides of your TV and finding that you could change the decor of the studio, the plot of the movie, the TV schedule, the teams playing a game, etc.

Not to mention that if consciousness is a transmission it needs a transmitter and some kind of field (force, or particle), to carry the signal, which raises problems of energy conservation, and we know that, while there may be unknown forces or particles, there are no unknown forces or particles of sufficient strength or range to be significant for everyday human activities because we would already have found them - we know what the brain is made of and we know what forces or particles affect it - basically, the choice is between gravity, the very weak 'dumb' force, and electromagnetism, which can barely penetrate the skull and which is easily detectable.

So, no.

It's true that goal-directed behaviour and learning is common in creatures without brains, and some people might consider this suggestive of consciousness - but all living creatures respond to their environment, and the motile ones do so strategically (e.g. move towards food or light). Simple nervous systems may be involved in multicellular creatures, but much of this can be done mechanically or via chemical cascades without neurons, and much of it is reasonably well understood already, e.g. plant tropisms. Some behaviours can be quite complex and involve learning (storing information), but that doesn't imply consciousness.

We project concepts like 'goal-directed' and 'aware' onto things in the world, and they can have meaning at many levels from simple reflexes & tropisms to human consciousness. We are particularly susceptible to what Dennett calls the 'Intentional stance', where we interpret the behaviour of things in terms of mental properties and agency - we sometimes do this for inanimate objects like machines, sometimes jokingly, sometimes unwittingly.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Yes. That's why I'm arguing that animals, plants, and other life forms also contain a kind of consciousness, albeit of a simpler variety. Brains simply allow for a much more complex form of consciousness that contains faster responses than the kind of simple, slow consciousness a plant or slime mold would have.

You need to stretch the definition of consciousness (such as it is) to the point of uselessness to include plants or single-cell creatures. Consciousness as commonly understood means that there is 'something it is like' for you to be the creature you are, i.e. a sense of self, and this is thought to require maintaining an internal model or map of the 'world' (your environment) and your place in it, and a process (or processes) that monitors that model or map.

The more advanced vertebrates clearly have this capacity (and some of the brain areas involved have been identified), and it's possible that some other creatures have a rudimentary sense of self (the octopus is a strange and debatable outlier as a mollusc), but it takes a fair amount of brain complexity to perform that level of processing, and since greater brain complexity requires significant energy resources, there needs to be some behavioural justification for it - IOW it must make a significant contribution to the creature's survival & success.

For most simple creatures, it would provide no selective advantage and would be a disadvantageous resource drain.
 
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Halbhh

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An Arctic Vortex is a large area of low pressure and cold air surrounding the earth's poles, particularly over the Arctic. It is a natural weather phenomenon that occurs in the winter months.

The Law of Attraction Vortex, on the other hand, is a term used in the self-help and spiritual communities to describe a concept that is based on the idea that a person's thoughts and feelings can attract positive experiences and outcomes into their life. It is not a scientifically recognized term and is considered to be a pseudoscience.

Oprah Winfrey has spoken about the law of attraction and its relationship to money and success. However, it is not clear if she explicitly supports the idea that the law of attraction can be used to specifically attract money. Oprah has been known to promote positive thinking and personal development and has encouraged people to believe in themselves and their ability to achieve their goals, which are principles that are often associated with the law of attraction. However, she has also emphasized the importance of hard work and taking action in order to achieve financial success.
yah, it's a kind of vague way to add a magic gloss on to just some basic aphorisms, like how you have to believe you can do something in order to give it a good try, how if you are friendly then others will often respond in friendliness back, and so on....

The book of Job is a sober reminder of the bigger picture. Things will often go well in life, but those without God will eventually flounder on a rock, and their boat will sink under the waves. The 'sun and the rain' come to all, Christ said. Truth.
 
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FireDragon76

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You need to stretch the definition of consciousness (such as it is) to the point of uselessness to include plants or single-cell creatures. Consciousness as commonly understood means that there is 'something it is like' for you to be the creature you are, i.e. a sense of self, and this is thought to require maintaining an internal model or map of the 'world' (your environment) and your place in it, and a process (or processes) that monitors that model or map.

The more advanced vertebrates clearly have this capacity (and some of the brain areas involved have been identified), and it's possible that some other creatures have a rudimentary sense of self (the octopus is a strange and debatable outlier as a mollusc), but it takes a fair amount of brain complexity to perform that level of processing, and since greater brain complexity requires significant energy resources, there needs to be some behavioural justification for it - IOW it must make a significant contribution to the creature's survival & success.

For most simple creatures, it would provide no selective advantage and would be a disadvantageous resource drain.

It's not about providing a selective advantage, if consciousness is a fundamental part of reality, as in panpsychism. Things merely are conscious, and as organisms become more complex, the complexity of their consciousness increases.
 
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dlamberth

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You need to stretch the definition of consciousness (such as it is) to the point of uselessness to include plants or single-cell creatures. Consciousness as commonly understood means that there is 'something it is like' for you to be the creature you are, i.e. a sense of self, and this is thought to require maintaining an internal model or map of the 'world' (your environment) and your place in it, and a process (or processes) that monitors that model or map.

The more advanced vertebrates clearly have this capacity (and some of the brain areas involved have been identified), and it's possible that some other creatures have a rudimentary sense of self (the octopus is a strange and debatable outlier as a mollusc), but it takes a fair amount of brain complexity to perform that level of processing, and since greater brain complexity requires significant energy resources, there needs to be some behavioural justification for it - IOW it must make a significant contribution to the creature's survival & success.

For most simple creatures, it would provide no selective advantage and would be a disadvantageous resource drain.
I fall on the side that the definition of consciousness given is too limited. Some level of consciousness IS very useful for plants and single-cell creatures. I don't see how they could not survive with out it.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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It's not about providing a selective advantage, if consciousness is a fundamental part of reality, as in panpsychism. Things merely are conscious, and as organisms become more complex, the complexity of their consciousness increases.
Making something 'fundamental' without some good reason doesn't explain anything, it's an evasion of explanation. IOW, it satisfies none of the criteria for an explanation - it's not predictive, or testable, it has no explanatory power, no specificity, provides no understanding of the phenomenon in question, has no scope or underlying principle, it's not parsimonious, adding an ad-hoc new entity to fundamental ontology, it raises far more questions than it answers, all unanswerable without any suggested mechanism, it's not coherent or consistent with our existing body of knowledge, and it applies to anything and everything - none of which explains why consciousness seems to be associated with brains and the more complex the brain, the more sophisticated the consciousness; or why a tiny change in an active brain can stop consciousness, etc.

Contrast that with the evolutionary, behavioural, & neurological explanation, for which there is abundant supporting evidence, and which lacks only a fully reductive explanation of the mechanism, something not uncommon in scientific theories.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I fall on the side that the definition of consciousness given is too limited. Some level of consciousness IS very useful for plants and single-cell creatures. I don't see how they could not survive with out it.
Consciousness seem to be more of a continuum. Once it passes a threshold of complexity, we recognize it.
 
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Neogaia777

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I define true consciousness as having and/or possessing a true free will, etc...

Or the ability to choose 100% completely and truly objectively free from just about any other kind of influence, or programming, etc...

I guarantee you most plants do not have it, etc...

And beyond that, I even find it very questionable with a lot of us humans, or maybe even all of us humans right now, etc...

God Bless!
 
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FireDragon76

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it's not coherent or consistent with our existing body of knowledge,

I disagree.

Do you know you are conscious? Do you believe there is evidence other beings are conscious?
 
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Neogaia777

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Everything is not restricted to time.
Yeah, but with the exception of only God the Father only, and Him all by Himself from the very beginning, everything and everyone else seems to be, or was at one time used to be, etc...

That last part is mainly about God the Son before he left here to go to where the Father always was/is (and when he left us here with God the Spirit until he comes back), etc...

God Bless!
 
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Ahermit

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Yeah, but with the exception of only God the Father only, and Him all by Himself from the very beginning, everything and everyone else seems to be, or was at one time used to be, etc...

That last part is mainly about God the Son, etc...

God Bless!
Humans also contain other dimensionalities that are not restricted to time. Bible talks about instant translocation, and telepathy.
 
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Neogaia777

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Humans also contain other dimensionalities that are not restricted to time.
I don't think there is any proof of that, either in science, or in and from the Bible, etc...

Bible talks about instant translocation, and telepathy.
For us human beings...?

Show me, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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FireDragon76

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Diamond7

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Bible talks about instant translocation, and telepathy.
I have instantly been to Heaven, I have instantly been to the center of the universe. That is clearly spiritual and not physical. Even at the speed of light it would take a long time to get there. Quantum physicists say we are all in all. Everything in the universe is connected in real-time and all of the universe is in us. Because we are star stuff. We would not be here if a star had not died.

Revelation 6:13 talks about: "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth"
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Consciousness seem to be more of a continuum. Once it passes a threshold of complexity, we recognize it.
I agree, but we define what we mean by 'consciousness', so if something doesn't match our definition it isn't conscious, by definition... the problem is that consciousness is ill-defined and first-person (subjective), so our only means of inferring it in others is the (weak) analogy from personal experience, and/or behaviour.

When we go beyond species that are not much like us and/or don't have similar suites of behaviour, we need more correlations to judge the likelihood of consciousness; that is where evolution and neuroscience come in - as best we can determine, it needs the kind of complex information processing that brains can do, and appears to have become more sophisticated have evolved more complexity.

If brain structure and complexity don't appear capable of the kind of processing we think is necessary for consciousness, it's reasonable to provisionally assume it isn't present. But where that line should be drawn is currently unclear - we need a clearer definition and a better understanding of what is necessary for it.
 
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