Did God Ordain Everything?

Bobber

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Let me ask you something here. On a Calvinists web site a well known Calvinists wrote an article where he relates an email that was sent him from a dear lady who says she was raped and had a child that was conceived because of it. In order to comfort her the Calvinist stated it was very wrong what happened to her and the person would be judged at the judgement.

I agree with his statement it was very wrong but it seems to me he had forgot what he was..... a Calvinist and a well known one at that. Calvinists believed God caused everything, which most certainly is error but that's what they believe. If it was WRONG what happened to her then that Calvinist is saying (given HIS belief) then God was wrong for he says on another day God wanted everything that does happen to happen.

So to other Calvinists on here. What would you have told the lady who was victimized? Would you tell her God must have wanted it to happen to her, for the reason it did happen? Wanting to believe the best of you I'm guessing that's where you come up to a wall in your theology and you know you have to give it up. In your gut, in your inner most part of your being you just KNOW it can't be possible for such to be true. You know God could not have ordained such an insidious, horrible action to be placed upon this woman. One Calvinist on this site declared recently he can't envision anything that happens not being the will of God.

What say you? And this should be a mere YES of NO answer for if you're a Calvinist you either believe God wanted it to happen (ordained it) or he didn't. Did he or didn't he?
 
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Clare73

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Let me ask you something here. On a Calvinists web site a well known Calvinists wrote an article where he relates an email that was sent him from a dear lady who says she was raped and had a child that was conceived because of it. In order to comfort her the Calvinist stated it was very wrong what happened to her and the person would be judged at the judgement.

I agree with his statement it was very wrong but it seems to me he had forgot what he was..... a Calvinist and a well known one at that. Calvinists believed God caused everything, which most certainly is error but that's what they believe. If it was WRONG what happened to her then that Calvinist is saying (given HIS belief) then God was wrong for he says on another day God wanted everything that does happen to happen.

So to other Calvinists on here. What would you have told the lady who was victimized? Would you tell her God must have wanted it to happen to her, for the reason it did happen? Wanting to believe the best of you I'm guessing that's where you come up to a wall in your theology and you know you have to give it up. In your gut, in your inner most part of your being you just KNOW it can't be possible for such to be true. You know God could not have ordained such an insidious, horrible action to be placed upon this woman. One Calvinist on this siteD declared recently he can't envision anything that happens not being the will of God.
What say you? And this should be a mere YES of NO answer for if you're a Calvinist you either believe God wanted it to happen (ordained it) or he didn't. Did he or didn't he?

Does one have to be a "Calvinist" to reply?

Did God ordain what was done to his Son?
Did God ordain that Stephen be stoned?
Did God ordain that Paul be imprisoned, flogged, stoned, shipwrecked (3 times), exposed to death from rivers, bandits, his own countrymen, Gentiles, in the city, the country, the sea, from false brothers (Gal 2:4), in hunger, thirst, cold and nakedness (2 Co 11:23-27)?

Etc., etc., etc.

The answer to my questions (Ac 9:16) is the answer to your question.
 
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St_Worm2

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Calvinists believe that God ~causes~ everything......
According to whom? Calvinists do not believe that God forces people to sin (in fact, He doesn't even tempt us to do so .. e.g. James 1:13-15 cf 1 Corinthians 10:13).

We (Calvinists) believe that He often ALLOWS bad things to happen in this world, including moral evil (like you described in the opening paragraph of the OP). If He did not (IOW, if He only allowed us to do what He wanted us to do) our wills would not be free!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - from the Westminster Confession of Faith

III. Of God’s Eternal Decree

1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15,18) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (James 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27–28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33).
 
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Bobber

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Does one have to be a "Calvinist" to reply?
It's Calvinists who believe everything is ordained which it is not.
Did God ordain what was done to is Son?
God set forth from the beginning Jesus would be a substitute for man's sin. Your serious error is you use that as a template for every thing that happens to people on the Earth.
Did God ordain that Stephen be stoned?
You're setting up a detour and evading the questions of the OP and much appreciated that you'd spare us with your answering a question with a question. The fact is it seems you'd never answer the questions to a victimized one but you'd merely beat around the bush. You do this for you know all of humanity would throw your theology into the trash.

The questions were, What would you have told the lady who was victimized? Would you tell her God must have wanted it to happen to her, (being raped) for the reason it did happen?


The answer to my questions is the answer to your question.
So ladies and gentlemen you see what a Calvinist here does. THEY KNOW there's no rational person who would accept God wants people raped that he desires it to happen which is what ordaining is so they run off talking about other things.

In regard to how they have they sought to divert the direct question no God did NOT ordain for Stephen to be stoned he'd be fighting against his own kingdom by so and a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. And God did not ordain that Paul had to go through hat he did. Act 19:16 says I must show him the great things he must suffer but no where does that say he forced ungodly men to persecute the messenger of God.
 
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Bobber

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According to whom? Calvinists do not believe that God forces people to sin (in fact, He doesn't even tempt us to do so .. e.g. James 1:13-15 cf 1 Corinthians 10:13).
You're quoting good scriptures' and it seems you're wanting to stand on the ground they provide but when Calvinists say God does not force people to sin they really shouldn't be taken too seriously in what they say. Why. Because they believe EVERY SIN God ordained to take place and he did this before the one committing them were even born. One can think of it as an author of a book with fictional characters. Whatever evil thing the author writes that they'll do is a forcing of them to do it. What else can it be?
We (Calvinists) believe that He often ALLOWS bad things to happen in this world, including moral evil (like you described in the opening paragraph of the OP). If He did not (IOW, if He only allowed us to do what He wanted us to do) our wills would not be free!
Sorry St Worm that is not what Calvinists believe. You believe not only that God allows things but he ORDAINS whatever to come to pass. I'm glad you believe God only allows these things to take place but that it not what Calvinists believe. If it was there would NOT have been a clash between Calvinists and Non-Calvinists for hundreds of years and all would be in agreement.
 
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Bobber

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III. Of God’s Eternal Decree

1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15,18) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (James 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27–28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33).
So one see's above in the Westminister Confession double talk. It states God ORDAINS everything that occurs but tries to spin the other way to say that doesn't mean God is the author of sin and that he didn't force mens' will. You can't have God ordain everything with no possibility it could change because he ordained it and go on to say that wouldn't mean he didn't force it to take place. If he ordained it that's a compelling force and it can't be said to be anything different.
 
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Clare73

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It's Calvinists who believe everything is ordained which it is not.

Only Calvinists?

God set forth from the beginning Jesus would be a substitute for man's sin. Your serious error is you use that as a template for every thing that happens to people on the Earth.
You're setting up a detour

No detour. . .the answer to my question is the answer to your question. . .problem?

and evading the questions of the OP and much appreciated that you'd spare us with your answering a question with a question.

As you evade here my question regarding Paul's necessary sufferings for the gospel?

The fact is it seems you'd never answer the questions to a victimized one but you'd merely beat around the bush. You do this for you know all of humanity would throw your theology into the trash.

My answer in post #2 is my answer to you, not to the lady.

My answer to a believer (was the lady a believer?) would be that God did not create the sin of the world under which consequences we all live.

Did God create the sin that stoned Stephen?

Did God create the sin that caused all those sufferings for Paul, "which filled up in his flesh what still remained in regard to Christ's afflictions" (Col 1:24) for the sake of the gospel (Ro 8:17, 2 Co 1:5, Php 3:10, 1 Pe 4:13).

The questions were, What would you have told the lady who was victimized? Would you tell her God must have wanted it to happen to her, (being raped) for the reason it did happen?
So ladies and gentlemen you see what a Calvinist here does.

Actually, you see what a Biblicist (Paulist) does here.

THEY KNOW there's no rational person who would accept God wants people raped that he desires it to happen which is what ordaining is so they run off talking about other things.

In regard to how they have they sought to divert the direct question no God did NOT ordain for Stephen to be stoned

God ordained that Stephen and Paul be subject to the consequences of sin in the world, just as Jesus was, and everyone else is.

he'd be fighting against his own kingdom by so and a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. And God did not ordain that Paul had to go through hat he did. Act 19:16 says I must show him the great things he must suffer but no where does that say he forced ungodly men to persecute the messenger of God.

And therein is the error regarding "God ordains," which is the source of your objection.

"Ordain" does not mean God forces anything.
In this case, it means his willing that all be subject to the consequences of sin in the world, including Jesus.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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There is a thing in scripture called the "course of nature." When God created the universe He imparted into every created thing a piece of His sovereignty. Every created thing has a right to exist, and the right to interact with every other created thing. That is not to say that God cannot overrule any interaction any time He wants... He certainly can.
Example:
A rock is embedded into the side of a hill. Over time erosion loosens the rock and it rolls down the hill. The rock may or may not hit someone. If it does we refer to it as an accident. Rightly so. There was no plan to hurt anyone.
So did God ordain this? By that I mean did he orchestrate the event, authorize it, and endorse not only the event but the results and ramifications. IMHO, that vast majority of things that occur in the world and in our lives are just such events. God simply allows them to happen. He can intervene and sometimes He does. But as far as we know, much of the time, He does not. By "as far as we know" I mean how would we know if He stepped in and prevented an event from occurring? But looking around the world that we live in, I suspect that much of His involvement is passive. He simply lets nature take its course.
The scripture speaks of accidents, fate, circumstance, and chance. These are not concepts that could exist in this world if all were predetermined and the result of orchestration, authentication, and with the endorsement of God. There would be no accidents or chance.
So where does this leave us and our faith? I think it should encourage us to become more proactive in our faith and profession. Faith in God and His protection are obviously very important in this construct. He is your shield, your high tower, your savior. Essentially we live in a world where God is in intervention mode. Salvation is an intervention against the default lost condition. Healing is an intervention against the default condition of sickness and death. Every prayer is a request to intervene against some condition in our lives that trouble us. Your faith should be active, not passive. Sorry Doris Day, It is not a case of "Qué será, será What will be, will be."
Bottom line, the creation is in a fallen and falling state.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 KJV
11. I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

A couple good books on the subject:
The ‘God is in Control of Everything’ Myth
"Fate, Chance, and Accidents in the Plan of God"
 
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Clare73

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There is a thing in scripture called the "course of nature." When God created the universe He imparted into every created thing a piece of His sovereignty. Every created thing has a right to exist, and the right to interact with every other created thing. That is not to say that God cannot overrule any interaction any time He wants... He certainly can.
Example:
A rock is embedded into the side of a hill. Over time erosion loosens the rock and it rolls down the hill. The rock may or may not hit someone. If it does we refer to it as an accident. Rightly so. There was no plan to hurt anyone.
So did God ordain this? By that I mean did he orchestrate the event, authorize it, and endorse not only the event but the results and ramifications. IMHO, that vast majority of things that occur in the world and in our lives are just such events. God simply allows them to happen.

Precisely my point.

The lady's experience is the result of God ordaining that mankind will be subject to the consequences of a sinful world.
Her experience is the result of his allowing those consequences of sin to happen.

And that makes you in agreement with "Calvinsim."

And then regarding the stoning of Stephen and the sufferings of Paul, the gospel could only be proclaimed if both Stephen and Paul were willing to accept the consequences of proclaiming the gospel in a sinful world.

He can intervene and sometimes He does. But as far as we know, much of the time, He does not. By "as far as we know" I mean how would we know if He stepped in and prevented an event from occurring? But looking around the world that we live in, I suspect that much of His involvement is passive. He simply lets nature take its course.

Which resulted in Stephen's stoning to death, Paul's sufferings and the lady's rape, all due to their living in a sinful world.
Do you think this concept would be more comforting than what the Calvinist told her?

The scripture speaks of accidents, fate, circumstance, and chance. These are not concepts that could exist in this world if all were predetermined and the result of orchestration, authentication, and with the endorsement of God. There would be no accidents or chance.
So where does this leave us and our faith? I think it should encourage us to become more proactive in our faith and profession. Faith in God and His protection are obviously very important in this construct. He is your shield, your high tower, your savior. Essentially we live in a world where God is in intervention mode. Salvation is an intervention against the default lost condition. Healing is an intervention against the default condition of sickness and death. Every prayer is a request to intervene against some condition in our lives that trouble us. Your faith should be active, not passive. Sorry Doris Day, It is not a case of "Qué será, será What will be, will be."
Bottom line, the creation is in a fallen and falling state.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 KJV
11. I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

A couple good books on the subject:
The ‘God is in Control of Everything’ Myth
"Fate, Chance, and Accidents in the Plan of God"
 
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zelosravioli

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Maybe you could consider Molinism, (named after Luis de Molina) William Lane Craig calls Molinism 'one of the most fruitful theological ideas ever conceived, for it would serve to explain not only God's knowledge of the future, but divine providence and predestination as well". Under it, God retains a measure of divine providence without hindering humanity's general freedom.
The Molinist claims God knows what His free creatures would choose, say under hypothetical circumstances, namely that the Sodomites would have responded in a way that Sodom would still have been in existence in Jesus' day, given that hypothetical situation.
Molinists have supported their case scripturally with Christ's statement in Matthew 11:23:
"And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day"

This angle of Gods fore-knowledge helps explain not only God's knowledge of the future, but divine providence and predestination as well. Under it, God retains a measure of divine providence without hindering humanity's freedom. Since God has middle knowledge, He knows what an agent would freely do in a particular situation. i would qualify 'would do' with 'could do' : as I believe in 'certain' situations God still can step in and manipulate a situation to fulfill His will, which makes sense of the oft used biblical phrase 'I will bring it to past' even when freewill actions would seem to want otherwise.

I discovered Luis deMolinas consideration of fore-knowledge when researching the physics of time and how it plays out in biblical future events and prophecy, and yes, as opposed to pure Calvinism or Arminianism..
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Precisely my point.

The lady's experience is the result of God ordaining that mankind will be subject to the consequences of a sinful world.
Her experience is the result of his allowing those consequences of sin to happen.

And that makes you in agreement with "Calvinsim."
And I think the response is that when God allow everything to happen by default, then no single occurrence has any meaning. God is not seen when nature takes it's course because at that time, God is passive. Essentially God allows everything and anything to happen by default. God IS seen in His interventions. We can only see and understand God when He intervenes. So to say God is defined by events that occur in the course of nature, I think, is the wrong way to look at it.
Consider also that the Devil is the god of this fallen world. We are to resist him and trust God to protect us from his attacks on our life.
Shocking to some is the fact that satan was also given innate abilities when he was created. He is the adversary, and he does not have to ask permission to be adverse. He is likened unto a roaring lion who goes around seeking whom he may devour. Lions do not need to ask permission to devour. That is what they were created to do. If you are not sober and vigilant, you may find yourself in the jaws of a lion. If satan could only devour you with God's explicit and immediate permission, then what good would being sober and vigilant do you? And if satan did receive permission to "get" you, what good is being sober and vigilant going to be?
As I suggested in the previous post, we need to be proactive in our faith. God has told us what to believe and what to do to escape the effects of this fallen world and the active moves of the devil to harm us.
Then there is a law built into creation called the law of sowing and reaping. People sometimes see this as a curse or negative thing, but God built it into creation. Without this law there would be no good reaping of good sowing. Thing is, this law also works in the negative. It cannot be helped. If we sow corruption, we will reap corruption. Unfortunate but it is, as you suggested, by design. But it was not intended for evil. The fallen world and the god of this fallen world has, I think, turned this.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Maybe you could consider Molinism, (named after Luis de Molina) William Lane Craig calls Molinism 'one of the most fruitful theological ideas ever conceived, for it would serve to explain not only God's knowledge of the future, but divine providence and predestination as well". Under it, God retains a measure of divine providence without hindering humanity's general freedom.
The Molinist claims God knows what His free creatures would choose, say under hypothetical circumstances, namely that the Sodomites would have responded in a way that Sodom would still have been in existence in Jesus' day, given that hypothetical situation.
Molinists have supported their case scripturally with Christ's statement in Matthew 11:23:
"And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day"

This angle of Gods fore-knowledge helps explain not only God's knowledge of the future, but divine providence and predestination as well. Under it, God retains a measure of divine providence without hindering humanity's freedom. Since God has middle knowledge, He knows what an agent would freely do in a particular situation. i would qualify 'would do' with 'could do' : as I believe in 'certain' situations God still can step in and manipulate a situation to fulfill His will, which makes sense of the oft used biblical phrase 'I will bring it to past' even when freewill actions would seem to want otherwise.

I discovered Luis deMolinas consideration of fore-knowledge when researching the physics of time and how it plays out in biblical future events and prophecy, and yes, as opposed to pure Calvinism or Arminianism..
Here we get into things like Open Theism and impassibility. Does knowledge of the future mean the authentication of what will happen? Interesting.
Peace
 
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Clare73

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And I think the response is that when God allow everything to happen by default, then no single occurrence has any meaning. God is not seen when nature takes it's course because at that time, God is passive. Essentially God allows everything and anything to happen by default. God IS seen in His interventions. We can only see and understand God when He intervenes. So to say God is defined by events that occur in the course of nature, I think, is the wrong way to look at it.

Did he not create this nature with its natural consequences of sin?

So where does that leave the stoning of Stephen and the sufferings of Paul, which were likewise the consequences of a sinful world?

Consider also that the Devil is the god of this fallen world. We are to resist him and trust God to protect us from his attacks on our life.
Shocking to some is the fact that satan was also given innate abilities when he was created. He is the adversary, and he does not have to ask permission to be adverse. He is likened unto a roaring lion who goes around seeking whom he may devour. Lions do not need to ask permission to devour. That is what they were created to do. If you are not sober and vigilant, you may find yourself in the jaws of a lion. If satan could only devour you with God's explicit and immediate permission, then what good would being sober and vigilant do you? And if satan did receive permission to "get" you, what good is being sober and vigilant going to be?
As I suggested in the previous post, we need to be proactive in our faith. God has told us what to believe and what to do to escape the effects of this fallen world and the active moves of the devil to harm us.

So it's the lady's fault that she was raped because she did not do what "God has told us. . . to do to escape. . .the active moves of the devil to harm?"

And this is what you would tell the lady in order to comfort her?

So how this is more comforting than what the Calvinist told her; i.e., that it was wrong and the rapist would be judged at the judgment?
Then there is a law built into creation called the law of sowing and reaping. People sometimes see this as a curse or negative thing, but God built it into creation. Without this law there would be no good reaping of good sowing. Thing is, this law also works in the negative. It cannot be helped. If we sow corruption, we will reap corruption. Unfortunate but it is, as you suggested, by design. But it was not intended for evil. The fallen world and the god of this fallen world has, I think, turned this.

And this would comfort her more than what the Calvinist told her, how?
 
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St_Worm2

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You're quoting good scriptures' and it seems you're wanting to stand on the ground they provide but when Calvinists say God does not force people to sin they really shouldn't be taken too seriously in what they say. Why. Because they believe EVERY SIN God ordained to take place and he did this before the one committing them were even born. One can think of it as an author of a book with fictional characters. Whatever evil thing the author writes that they'll do is a forcing of them to do it. What else can it be?
Hello again Bobber, God KNOWING/His foreknowledge of the sins that we will freely choose to commit during our lives here, and His subsequent ALLOWING of us to commit them, is quite different than Him CAUSING/FORCING us to commit them. To be clear, Calvinism teaches the former about Him, NEVER the latter.

Sorry St Worm that is not what Calvinists believe. You believe not only that God allows things but he ORDAINS whatever to come to pass. I'm glad you believe God only allows these things to take place but that it not what Calvinists believe. If it was there would NOT have been a clash between Calvinists and Non-Calvinists for hundreds of years and all would be in agreement.
A word can have many different meanings (as I am certain you are aware). I think the problem here is that neither Augustine, nor Luther, nor Calvin, nor the Westminster divines (nor any of the Calvinists that I know today, including myself) had/have access to the definitions that are found in the Bobber Dictionary of Theological Terms.;)

Silliness aside, for now anyway, we (Calvinists) assign a somewhat different meaning to the theological term "ordain" than you do.


There are those who are referred to as, "Hyper-Calvinists", who assign (to one degree or another) ~your~ meaning to that term, but Hyper-Calvinists are NOT Calvinists. The belief that God is the Author & Cause of moral evil (in this world/in our hearts) is NEITHER a Calvinist nor a Christian belief.

Finally, the "clash" that you speak of over God as sovereign/as ordaining whatsoever comes to pass in this world is hardly between Calvinists and Non-Calvinists! Rather, that clash is between theists and atheists (as I believe that @Clare73 has already noted for us).

The ongoing "clash" between (orthodox) Calvinists and Non-Calvinists rests principally in what we each believe/teach concerning the atonement, which is perhaps most easily seen in the middle three "petals" of the Reformed acrostic TULIP, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible Grace ("Limited Atonement" typically being at the heart of the controversy).

God bless you!!

--David
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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So, to other Calvinists on here: What would you have told the lady who was victimized? Would you tell her [that] God must have wanted it to happen to her, for the reason it did happen?

No, I would not tell her that. Why? Because a person like that needs a pastoral response, not a theological excursus. In situations like that, I want to be an instrument of God's grace and healing, not a teacher of theological precision. That is not the time or place for the latter.


Wanting to believe the best of you, I'm guessing that's where you come up to a wall in your theology and you know you have to give it up.

And your guess would be fantastically incorrect.


In your gut, in the innermost part of your being, you just KNOW it can't be possible for [that] to be true.

As a matter of fact, I know the complete opposite, thanks. With every fiber of my soul, I know it is (and must be) true—and I am eternally grateful that it is.


One Calvinist on this site declared recently he can't envision anything that happens not being the will of God.

And here is yet another.


What say you? And this should be a mere YES of NO answer ...

And that is precisely what you received from me, a very clear "no" and a careful explanation of why.
 
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Bobber

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No, I would not tell her that. Why? Because a person like that needs a pastoral response, not a theological excursus. In situations like that, I want to be an instrument of God's grace and healing, not a teacher of theological precision. That is not the time or place for the latter.
And I appreciate the fact that you feel she needs healing. I would too. But if your true belief can't provide that because of your theology what real peace can you give her? If she asks as many do who have experienced what she did, why did God allow this and YOUR real belief isn't just that he allowed it but ordained it then you're being rather disingenuous by telling her anything different. She asks a question and you didn't tell her what you believe and she can easily find out later by what you preach and teach. So how could you have really helped her.

Of course I believe it's absolutely horrible and wrong to tell someone God ordained it but I don't TRULY believe God did so at all. It seems you do though if you're holding to Calvinist thinking.

And what you're saying is Calvinistic theology can't walk itself out in real life.

As a matter of fact, I know the complete opposite, thanks. With every fiber of my soul, I know it is (and must be) true—and I am eternally grateful that it is.
Now come on. I hardly think many readers would buy that. If you or one of your loved ones were so victimized you're telling us you would be so eternally grateful that they were? Remember now we're talking about one of the most insidious, unbearable and almost unspeakable thing that can happen to a person and you're saying you'd be glad they were.
 
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Bobber

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Hello again Bobber,
Hello :)

God KNOWING/His foreknowledge of the sins that we will freely choose to commit during our lives here, and His subsequent ALLOWING of us to commit them, is quite different than Him CAUSING/FORCING us to commit them.
I agree.
To be clear, Calvinism teaches the former about Him, NEVER the latter.
Calvinism teaches that? With all due respect no is doesn't. It teaches God ordained everything with intent that he wanted it that way.


There are those who are referred to as, "Hyper-Calvinists", who assign (to one degree or another) ~your~ meaning to that term, but Hyper-Calvinists are NOT Calvinists. The belief that God is the Author & Cause of moral evil (in this world/in our hearts) is NEITHER a Calvinist nor a Christian belief.
First time I've ever heard one say who is a Calvinist that hyper Calvinists are not Calvinists.
Finally, the "clash" that you speak of over God as sovereign/as ordaining whatsoever comes to pass in this world is hardly between Calvinists and Non-Calvinists! Rather, that clash is between theists and atheists
Not sure how you could even say that having been on Calvinists-NonCalvinist threads for years. How God involves himself in regard to ordaining things or not ordaining things has always been a subject with a difference of opinions.

).

God bless you!!

--David
And God bless you too.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Did he not create this nature with its natural consequences of sin?

So where does that leave the stoning of Stephen and the sufferings of Paul, which were likewise the consequences of a sinful world?




So it's the lady's fault that she was raped because she did not do what "God has told us. . . to do to escape. . .the active moves of the devil to harm?"

And this is what you would tell the lady in order to comfort her?

So how this is more comforting than what the Calvinist told her; i.e., that it was wrong and the rapist would be judged at the judgment?


And this would comfort her more than what the Calvinist told her, how?
Sounds like you are just determined to blame God. Has nothing to do with Calvinism.
This is what faith and love are about. Believe and trust Him or not. Truth is there is no comfort for this women or others who suffer such things. There is no way to undo it or make it better. It happened because we live in a fallen and falling world. The only comfort is trusting Him. Blaming Him is not how to do that. There is soul healing. But being angry at God and blaming Him will not accomplish that.
God is good. God is love. His mercy endures forever. These are basic Christian beliefs in or out of Calvinism. This is what faith is all about.
I will not respond again because I do not want to lead you to more opportunity to rail against the Lord and God we love and serve.
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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And I appreciate the fact that you [would] feel she needs healing; I would, too. But if your true belief can't provide that (because of your theology), what real peace can you give her? ... She asks a question and you didn't tell her what you believe, and she can easily find out later by what you preach and teach. So, how could you have really helped her?

As someone who survived years of extreme childhood abuse and neglect, I am firmly convinced that this theological view is the only one that could offer her a meaningful answer that provides the assurance, security, comfort, and peace of mind that her troubled soul is desperately seeking. And I am convinced of it not only because I have witnessed it in the lives of others but also because I have experienced it personally in my own life. Again, a hypothetical email exchange like the one you described would not be the time or place for that. However, as you astutely noted, it would come in time as she listened to the preaching of God's word from the pulpit and dug deep into catechesis and Bible study.

It is the non-Calvinist view that would fail to provide her the peace which her soul desperately seeks, because the non-Calvinist view has no ability to offer any comfort or assurance whatsoever. The message she would hear from a non-Calvinist pulpit would induce cognitive dissonance, that God is heartbroken over the wicked things that humans do to one another which he allows to happen. She would hear about a God who has the power to stop these things but he allows them to happen. Why? Well, there is no sense in asking why because that would imply he had a purpose in it—and he most certainly does not! In these non-Calvinist sermons she would hear, "There is no comfort or peace to be had because we worship a God who had no reason for allowing this gratuitous evil to happen to you."

Those who want to know why God allows evil, thus daring to think he has a purpose in it, a reason for allowing it—victims of abuse and violence like her and me who are seeking healing and peace—must explore a system of biblical doctrine which says God does have a purpose, that the wickedness of this world falls out only according to God's definite plan and the hidden purpose and good pleasure of his will.


If she asks—as many do who have experienced what she did—"Why did God allow this?" and your real belief isn't just that he allowed it but ordained it, then you're being rather disingenuous by telling her anything different.

What she would hear from the Calvinist pulpit is that we don't know why God allows this or that particular instance of evil. Deuteronomy 29:29 is an oft-cited and well-known passage in Calvinist communities: "Secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those that are revealed belong to us and our descendants forever, so that we might obey all the words of this law." Some things are hidden, some things are revealed. Why God allows this or that specific instance of evil is one of the hidden (secret) things that belongs to him, but what has been revealed to us is that he has a good purpose in allowing evil, that all things happen according to his plan and the good pleasure of his will. Although we don't know his purpose in any particular case, such knowledge isn't required for us to trust him. We refuse to ascribe ineptitude or callousness to him by declaring he has no reason for the evil that occurs; rather, we trust he has a purpose and that it is always only good. Thus, we avoid the sin of speaking foolishly (insipid or unsavory things) against God. As stated in the Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown commentary on the Bible (with respect to Job 1:22; emphasis added),

Folly in Scripture is continually equivalent to wickedness. For when man sins, it is himself, not God, whom he injures (Prov 8:36). We are to submit to trials, not because we see the reasons for them, nor yet as though they were matters of chance, but because God wills them, and has a right to send them, and has his own good reasons in sending them.

Of course, I believe it's absolutely horrible and wrong to tell someone God ordained it, but I don't truly believe God did so at all.

You must therefore believe (and tell her) something far more horrible and wrong, that we worship a God who allows gratuitous evil for no reason. (Or, alternatively, you could believe that God is not able to stop it, but, as difficult as it is to believe, that would lead to a far worse outcome theologically, a God who is unable to promise he will triumph over evil.)


Now come on. I hardly think many readers would buy that. If you or one of your loved ones were so victimized, ...

And I was.


... you're telling us you would be so eternally grateful that [you/]they were?

Everyone can see—because it's right there for anyone to see—that I did not say any such thing. What I am eternally grateful for is that absolutely nothing in this world happens either beyond or contrary to the good purpose and power of our holy and almighty God. I am eternally grateful that there ARE answers to my questions about why, for he DID ordain these things and DOES have a purpose in them. I don't have to know what those reasons are—I trust him without seeing those reasons—but I know that in the end he could tell me, for nothing in all his creation exists or happens purposelessly.


Remember now, we're talking about one of the most insidious, unbearable, and almost unspeakable things that can happen to a person ...

You can bring to bear the most emotionally-wrought adjectives in the English language and it will not change the witness of Scripture.

-- DialecticSkeptic
 
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Bobber

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As you evade here my question regarding Paul's necessary sufferings for the gospel?
The only reason it was necessary for Paul to suffer for the gospel is that's goes with the territory of getting the message out. Sorry but you can't compare that to a lady who was victimized by being raped saying that was necessary! Sorry but you need to think through on what you're saying.
My answer to a believer (was the lady a believer?) would be that God did not create the sin of the world under which consequences we all live.
If you're a Calvinist no one should let you off the hook from what you just said. If you're a Calvinist according to your doctrines you believe everything is ordained EVEN the sin of the world. Of course it isn't but that's what you believe.

Here's what another one of you said here just recently---> "I find a logical contradiction in the bald notion that anything can happen apart from God having —in one way or another— caused it. "


God ordained that Stephen and Paul be subject to the consequences of sin in the world, just as Jesus was, and everyone else is.
Nonsense. God did NOT ordain that his people be persecuted. A Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand and so said Jesus.





 
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