Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop Refuses to Bake a Birthday Cake for Transgendered Person

Hank77 said:

You said that it wasn't respectful to turn anyone away so they are offended. I'm pointing out that it isn't respectful to ask someone to do something that will cause them to be unfaithful to their religious beliefs.
If you know it will hurt someone to ask them to do something that you can ask someone else to do why would you deliberately choose to hurt them? That my friend is disrespectful.

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So going to a baker that makes wedding cakes to purchase a wedding cake is now somehow hurtful?

Hank77 said:

No, it isn't. It's not about icing colors it's about the celebration that Mr. Phillips doesn't believe he should be contributing to in any way.

Go back and read his reasoning for not making the wedding cake and it's the same reason.

It's not my argument, it's his argument.

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Mmmmeh…
If the cake was meant to celebrate (say) the release from prison the person responsible for the baker’s grandmother’s untimely death, they’d have a stronger case. That’d be morally defensible.

Hank77 said:

Phillips attempted to settle the matter peacefully, agreeing to sell Scardina a premade pink-and-blue cake — provided Phillips did not personally have to create the cake specifically for Scardina’s gender-transition celebration

He doesn't create gender-transition celebration cakes for anyone just like he doesn't create cakes for Halloween celebrations, divorce celebrations, and a few other things as well for anyone.

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According to your own article, the only difference between the pre-made cake and the cake commissioned for the party is who requested it and what it meant to them. The cakes themselves were (or would have been) identical. er go, Phillips was discriminating against the customer, not refusing to make a specific kind of product or design.

SilverBear said:

So going to a baker that makes wedding cakes to purchase a wedding cake is now somehow hurtful?

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This transwoman lawyer went to Mr. Phillips and asked him when she knew it would be a problem for him. She deliberately set out to hurt him. She is being disrespectful of him and his religious beliefs.

iluvatar5150 said:

According to your own article, the only difference between the pre-made cake and the cake commissioned for the party is who requested it and what it meant to them. The cakes themselves were (or would have been) identical. er go, Phillips was discriminating against the customer, not refusing to make a specific kind of product or design.

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It wasn't who requested it, it was what it was requested for.
You know this so I don't know why you keep going on as if you don't. Just say you don't agree with Mr. Phillips's view that his religious commitment is just as important as this transwoman's celebration.
Mr. Phillips has sold cake to LGBTQ+ customers in the past and will continue to do so he says. In fact, he has LGBTQ+ customers that have been supportive of him since all this began several years ago.
There can be decent people on both sides of an issue that have different views and are willing to compromise in order to share this world without making everything a war.

SilverBear said:

Just like how the manager of the Broadway theatre was forced to go against his values and take down this sign

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Trying to be faithful to your conscience and biblical values is different from racism which the bible condemns.

NBB said:

Trying to be faithful to your conscience and biblical values is different from racism which the bible condemns.

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Check your history, in their time slavery, racism and segregation were all defended biblically and the issues were seen as moral issues.

Hank77 said:

It wasn't who requested it, it was what it was requested for.

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Ok. Let's go with that. It's no different than him having refused to sell a green cake to someone who claimed they'd be using it to celebrate Ramadan. It's still illegal.

Hank77 said:

You know this so I don't know why you keep going on as if you don't. Just say you don't agree with Mr. Phillips's view that his religious commitment is just as important as this transwoman's celebration.

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No, what I think is that it's a good balance that the balance we, as a society, have struck between respecting folks' rights to associate and allowing folks to participate in society. Mr Phillip as an individual is free to exercise his religious commitments however he wishes, but when he's acting in the capacity of a certain kind of business entity, he is faced with some restrictions. If he finds those restrictions objectionable or overly burdensome, he's free to modify his business in a way that would be more accommodating.

Hank77 said:

Mr. Phillips has sold cake to LGBTQ+ customers in the past and will continue to do so he says. In fact, he has LGBTQ+ customers that have been supportive of him since all this began several years ago.
There can be decent people on both sides of an issue that have different views and are willing to compromise in order to share this world without making everything a war.

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Requiring public accommodations to abide by non-discrimination laws IS the compromise.

Hank77 said:

This transwoman lawyer went to Mr. Phillips and asked him when she knew it would be a problem for him. She deliberately set out to hurt him. She is being disrespectful of him and his religious beliefs.

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Someone went to a baker who bakes cakes and asked for a cake. The problem wasn't the cake it was the fact that the customer is a minority and that makes it discrimination.

Hank77 said:

It wasn't who requested it, it was what it was requested for.
You know this so I don't know why you keep going on as if you don't. Just say you don't agree with Mr. Phillips's view that his religious commitment is just as important as this transwoman's celebration.
Mr. Phillips has sold cake to LGBTQ+ customers in the past and will continue to do so he says. In fact, he has LGBTQ+ customers that have been supportive of him since all this began several years ago.
There can be decent people on both sides of an issue that have different views and are willing to compromise in order to share this world without making everything a war.

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During segregation restaurants would sell meals to black people but it was take out only and they usually had to go to the back door so their presence in the dining area wouldn't offend the other customers. The fact that black people could get some service from a place like that doesn't change the fact that it was still discrimination and still a hateful way to treat anybody.

Hank77 said:

He wasn't discriminating against a person or group of persons, he was discriminating against an action taken by the person and refusing to help them celebrate that action.

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I don't imagine many straight people ask for cakes to celebrate their transition. Seems like an "I don't discriminate against black people, I just won't provide food for black meals" kind of hair splitting. In other words, picking out an action that only a certain class of people can partake in is often the same as singling out the group itself.

NBB said:

Why they want to force the man to do something against his values?

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The alternative is letting people ignore the law simply because they feel strongly they should be able to.

Hank77 said:

The transwoman lawyer asked him for a birthday cake. He agreed to make her a birthday cake to celebrate her birthday he assumed, like a normal person. Then this person tells him that she wants to celebrate a transition which she called a birthday. He doesn't make transition birthday cakes for anyone.

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Note for next time - I'd leave out the "like a normal person" here, it belies the feelings pushing this rationalization of the guy's actions.

iluvatar5150 said:

Bakeries don’t typically stock ready-made birthday cakes. SOP is to have a menu with standard options from which you place an order, like this: Flavors | Frostings | Fillings | MASTERPIECE CAKESHOP

But perhaps you can explain for us the difference between a blue and pink birthday cake and a blue and pink transition cake.

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It's not discriminating against trans people, just against something that only trans people can do (and closely lines up with the thing making them trans as a group), therefore it isn't discrimination. Just like a tax on yarmulkes would have absolutely nothing to do with discriminating against Jewish people, honest.

DaisyDay said:

There are certain colors of cake and frosting that you simply can't mix, if you're a certain kind of Christian.

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The weird part is one can only know the color combo is wrong by looking at the characteristics of the people asking for those combos. Quite peculiar.

Hammster said:

He shouldn’t be forced to make a cake that violates his conscience.

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Hammster said:

Yes. They should operate within the law.

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I'm seeing a bit of a conflict in these "shoulds". Anyone else?

SilverBear said:

So going to a baker that makes wedding cakes to purchase a wedding cake is now somehow hurtful?

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It is if you're the "wrong" type of customer.
But maybe if you just keep your mouth shut about not being a "normal person" (to quote a previous defense of the discrimination), maybe you'll get away with getting service from upstanding businesses like this? Hard to tell.

Hammster said:

Right. As should be his right.

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What about operating within the law?