Teen's Interaction With Transgender Woman in YMCA Locker Room Sparks Heated Debate

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rjs330

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Biology determines your physical make up and even then it's not an either or thing
Society determines gender rolls
Your mind determines identity
Biology determines what your sex and gender are which are the same.

Gender roles have always been based upon the male female sex. Men did this, women did that. Those roles can can and have changed. Like women going to work. But women and men have always been women or men. Society does not determine if you are a man or a woman.
 
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rjs330

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and what does morality say about defening and glorifying a liar?
It has not been determined she was a liar. She believed that a man was in the locker room. That's her belief. You have nothing to show that she KNEW it was not a man.
 
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rjs330

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Brains are biological...



The biology of brains can be strange.

Take for instance body integrity disorder where someone's brain tells them their hand shouldn't be attached to them:


We know that a persons "gender identity" isn't always linked to their physical gender (their sex). How deterministic this process is isn't currently known.
Right and it's a disorder. So is transgenderism. When I say biology I am referring to your genetic chromosomes. And when I refer to the brain I am referring to your thoughts that you are the opposite sex than your biological makeup.

There are all kinds of brain disorders. It's okay to call transgenderism a disorder. Seriously all it means is that your brain is having problems. You have an illness. It's okay to have an illness. Lots of people have brain disorders.
 
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SilverBear

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Biology determines what your sex and gender are which are the same.

Gender roles have always been based upon the male female sex. Men did this, women did that. Those roles can can and have changed. Like women going to work. But women and men have always been women or men. Society does not determine if you are a man or a woman.
if gender toles change then they weren't based on unchanging biology
 
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SilverBear

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Right and it's a disorder. So is transgenderism. When I say biology I am referring to your genetic chromosomes. And when I refer to the brain I am referring to your thoughts that you are the opposite sex than your biological makeup.

There are all kinds of brain disorders. It's okay to call transgenderism a disorder. Seriously all it means is that your brain is having problems. You have an illness. It's okay to have an illness. Lots of people have brain disorders.
it isn't a disorder so not its not OK
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Biology determines what your sex and gender are which are the same.

Gender roles have always been based upon the male female sex. Men did this, women did that. Those roles can can and have changed. Like women going to work. But women and men have always been women or men. Society does not determine if you are a man or a woman.

That's another interesting dynamic where "the pendulum swings" so to speak.

Historically, women have been on the losing end of the public discussion about "man things" vs. "woman things", but I think society attempted to "overcorrect" and that hasn't been helpful... neither practically, nor in terms of public discourse.

While women had a legitimate gripe when the general attitudes of society suggested that "a woman can't be in a leadership role at a company because men are smarter than women, they should just stay home and pump out babies and keep the house clean", society overcorrected for that and now tries to suggest that both sexes are equally suited, in general, for all jobs (....which, let's be honest, they aren't.), and saying otherwise makes you a "patriarchy sympathizer"

There are certain tasks where men (as a whole) excel, and tasks where women (as a whole) excel, and some are neutral. Historically, the neutral aspect was overlooked and women got the short end of the stick. But the answer to that shouldn't be "pretend that there's no task in the world that men, as a whole, aren't better at". As you mentioned, the biological aspect is a real thing. We shouldn't be pretending that women can do certain things as well as a man (and vice versa) for the same reason we shouldn't pretend that 5' 8" people (as a whole) can be as good at basketball as someone who's 6' 6".
 
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variant

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Right and it's a disorder. So is transgenderism. When I say biology I am referring to your genetic chromosomes. And when I refer to the brain I am referring to your thoughts that you are the opposite sex than your biological makeup.

There are all kinds of brain disorders. It's okay to call transgenderism a disorder. Seriously all it means is that your brain is having problems. You have an illness. It's okay to have an illness. Lots of people have brain disorders.

I would say abnormal rather than talking about it like saying these people have an illness simply because of the negative connotations, and in fact the term "trans" in trans gender means "across" to stipulate that the persons biological sex and gender identity don't align.

Whatever biology plays into psychological gender identification is no less "biological" than having sex chromosomes determine ones sex.

Where it gets complicated and messy is that "gender" is also an idea tied into biological sex that we've gone and structured our society around in various ways, and we should expect that there are also non biological reasons someone might have a specific gender identity.
 
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rjs330

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if gender toles change then they weren't based on unchanging biology
Oh for Pete's sake. Gender roles are based on male female. They are based on what society believes that a males role is and a females role is. Sometimes they decide a males role is this and a females role is that and sometimes society decides that a females role or a males role can change. That does not change biology. Only what they might DO at certain times. If you can't grasp that I'm not sure what to say.
 
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SilverBear

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Oh for Pete's sake. Gender roles are based on male female. They are based on what society believes that a males role is and a females role is. Sometimes they decide a males role is this and a females role is that and sometimes society decides that a females role or a males role can change. That does not change biology. Only what they might DO at certain times. If you can't grasp that I'm not sure what to say.
Gender roles are based on societal perceptions of male and female, they are not in any way biological.
 
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rjs330

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Gender roles are based on societal perceptions of male and female, they are not in any way biological.
Male and female are biological. Gender roles are societal roles of what they think biological males and biological females should be doing. That's all I'm saying. Hope that clears up any confusion.
 
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rjs330

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I would say abnormal rather than talking about it like saying these people have an illness simply because of the negative connotations, and in fact the term "trans" in trans gender means "across" to stipulate that the persons biological sex and gender identity don't align.

Whatever biology plays into psychological gender identification is no less "biological" than having sex chromosomes determine ones sex.

Where it gets complicated and messy is that "gender" is also an idea tied into biological sex that we've gone and structured our society around in various ways, and we should expect that there are also non biological reasons someone might have a specific gender identity.
It used to be called transexual. An acknowledgement to the sex the person was.

There is no biology for transgenders. It's a mental health disorder just like any other.
They are male or female. They are NOT the opposite sex. So they should not be afforded the same things the opposite sex has. Like being male and participating in women's sports. It being male and undressing in a woman's locker room. If they want to wear a dress, fine. I don't care. If they want to wear makeup, fine I don't care.

But for heavens sake don't push that on kids. Don't give kids the idea they could be trans and give them drugs and surgeries because they are kids. They are not capable of making those life altering decisions.
 
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rjs330

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How we relate to our biology can in fact change, especially as we learn more about it.
But you are still male of female. Taking drugs and having surgeries doesn't change that. And it does not alter the fact that you have a mental disorder.
 
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SilverBear

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Ummm... Cause she said she thought so? If that's not evidence of what she believed I don't know what is.
She also said the woman in the locker room had a penis. But that was a lied so why should she be believed about anything?
 
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SilverBear

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Male and female are biological. Gender roles are societal roles of what they think biological males and biological females should be doing. That's all I'm saying. Hope that clears up any confusion.
Apparently not since you are still confused. So one more time. Gender and biological sex are not the same thing.
 
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