The Fall of the West (It's Happening Now)

Larniavc

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What I think is important is that the church doesn't crumble away with it.
History is replete with abandoned religions. At some point the Abrahamic religions will go the same way.
 
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Desk trauma

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That is my opinion though no individual should be compelled to believe, nations who promote God will be blessed.
With what? A country being more religious does not corollate with it being more successful or having a higher standards of living. Even within the US the most religious states are not the most successful but are dead last by any measure of success.
 
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stevevw

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I'd obviously ask her for her reasons. What has she based her decisions on? How did she come to this conclusion? I certainly wouldn't say 'you are objectively wrong' because, as I keep saying, there are no objective moral acts.
So you would not stand up for your own convictions. You would not try and talk someone out of something you know is wrong.

We all know that human life should not be taken unjustly. I think we all know that killing a baby 1 week from birth is no different to killing that baby 1 week after birth. I find it strange that someone who claims they can kill a baby1 week from birth that we cannot take a stand and say no that's is just wrong. If that same person wanted to stab that baby 1 week after birth we would say its wrong and stop them even arrest them. Yet 1 week from birth and suddenly we lose all sense of right and wrong.

I like what Shapiro has to say on this matter. He cuts to the chase and exposes the lies of pro choice and subjective morality. Please don't be distracted by the commentator but rather engage in the content. He just happens to explain the reality of what is happening and not buy into all the lies.

 
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Larniavc

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Like maybe in another 5783 years? ^_^
That’s actually not that long. After all, the Sumerian King List shows us the Sumerian religion was around for well over 100,000 years before the highest god, Enlil, decided to destroy the world with a flood because humans had become too noisy.
 
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Ceallaigh

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That’s actually not that long. After all, the Sumerian King List shows us the Sumerian religion was around for well over 100,000 years before the highest god, Enlil, decided to destroy the world with a flood because humans had become too noisy.
Yeah but whether you want to go by Al Gore or the Bible, we probably won't be around nearly that long.
 
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stevevw

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I guess this thread would inevitably come down to morality itself as to whether there is such a morality and if we can even measure moral decline and that will lead to evidence for or against. Part of the counter argument for there being no moral decline is that history seems to have always been this way therefore there is no moral decline and we therefore can never measure moral decline. I think this side tracks the discussion and doesn't help. Rather I think we can take a more pragmatic view to see if modern society is declining.

We can and should be able to determine the state of morality in society as it is now as to whether we are in a healthy moral state and see how this will effect society in the future without going back through all our history. Just like we can diagnose an individuals state of mind, morals and wellbeing without knowing their history. I think this can simply things without having to bring in the entire history of Western culture.

For example just like we can diagnose the health status of an individual by looking for signs and types of behavior as to whether they are conducive of wellbeing, ant-social behavior and predict a continued deterioration in their life if things don't change we can do the same for society as a whole. It doesn't matter then if these types of behaviors and signs were present in the past because we are measuring p[resent behavior within the context of whether its healthy or not and brings chaos. Those signs and symptoms can be found by looking at the state of society.

Based on this approach I believe a case can be made that modern Western society is sick, has a mental illness, is becoming dysfunctional, lost its moral compass and heading towards the equivalent of a heart attack.
 
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Larniavc

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Yeah but whether you want to go by Al Gore or the Bible, we probably won't be around nearly that long.
I’m optimistic that humans will continue in some way, even if we have adapt to environmental changes.
 
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Bradskii

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So you would not stand up for your own convictions. You would not try and talk someone out of something you know is wrong.
Of course I would. But as I said, we'd have to agree on the facts of the matter so I'd want to know what she'd based her decision on. I can't change her mind without knowing that.
 
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stevevw

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Of course I would. But as I said, we'd have to agree on the facts of the matter so I'd want to know what she'd based her decision on. I can't change her mind without knowing that.
Apart from a risk to the mothers life what other reason could possibly justify taking a life. If the same person wanted to kill the baby the day after it was born you would not be asking what they based their decision on. It would just be wrong no matter what and we would say no and try to stop them.
 
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Bradskii

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Apart from a risk to the mothers life what other reason could possibly justify taking a life. If the same person wanted to kill the baby the day after it was born you would not be asking what they based their decision on.
Yes, I would. Presumably she has a reason. Me saying simply 'it's wrong', just as you would, doesn't cut it. I need to know why she wants to do it so I can tell her why I think she is wrong.

You seem to not understand this. It's not enough to say 'My way is right'. You have to show the other person why they are wrong. To do that you have to know why they are doing it. This principle holds whatever the moral problem, however simple the answer seems to be to you.
 
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stevevw

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Yes, I would. Presumably she has a reason. Me saying simply 'it's wrong', just as you would, doesn't cut it. I need to know why she wants to do it so I can tell her why I think she is wrong.

You seem to not understand this. It's not enough to say 'My way is right'. You have to show the other person why they are wrong. To do that you have to know why they are doing it. This principle holds whatever the moral problem, however simple the answer seems to be to you.
I understand trying to educate people about why something is wrong can help people understand the reasoning behind why something is wrong I have kids' and work in social welfare. So after you explain to them why it is wrong and they still want to kill their baby what then.
 
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Bradskii

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I understand trying to educate people about why something is wrong can help people understand the reasoning behind why something is wrong I have kids' and work in social welfare. So after you explain to them why it is wrong and they still want to kill their baby what then.
We're reaching a point where the questions are becoming nonsensical. What do you mean 'what would you do?' I do exactly the same as you or any other sane person would do. I'd stop her.
 
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stevevw

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We're reaching a point where the questions are becoming nonsensical. What do you mean 'what would you do?' I do exactly the same as you or any other sane person would do. I'd stop her.
OK I am just trying to understand where your coming from. I don't think its a nonsensical because some people think its wrong to stop a women even at that late stage. In fact as far as I understand some States allow late term abortions. In the US 2 states allow abortion up to 6 weeks, 4 States have no limits and the rest allow abortions from 20 to 26 weeks.

You have decided that 1 week out from birth is objectively wrong and you would even stop someone from trying to abort their baby which is the right thing to do. But as mentioned earlier its hard to draw the line as to whether 2 weeks out or 6 weeks out is also too late. A baby can survive outside the womb at around 21 weeks so is 21 weeks too late. I think because we cannot be 100% sure on this its better to err on the side of caution and prevent as many abortions as possible.

The point is we can determine some truths about whether abortion is right or wrong. I don't think because you think 1 week out is not morally ok and others may think different stages is ok means that there is no truths about abortion being morally wrong and therefore morality is subjective.

We agree that abortion 1 week from birth is objectively wrong in that we would try and stop another doing it and I think most people would do the same. To me that is an moral truth that stands on its own regardless of any persons subjective views. So maybe we can find further truths about abortion, maybe we can bring that line back a little more.

You are right that education is important and I think many people don't think too much about abortion. The more we look into the more we will understand. But I think some people are uncomfortable about looking into it and don't want to know. Many are also misinformed due to political correctness. The language around abortion has changed in recent years such as referring to the fetus as a thing and I am not sure that is the right way to describe the fetus it may desensitize some so maybe some more education there.
 
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