WHO WILL REIGN WITH CHRIST ?

Dan Perez · Jan 27, 2023

oikonomia said:
The reward to reign with Christ during the millennium is given to those who He deems have "overcome."

And to overcome is to be filled with His life so that He is enjoyed in the reigning in life in the age before then.

Some will have given their lives in martydom.
Some because they lived seemingly mundane lives yet through the grace of Christ.
Some will have served well through the grace that they lived by.
Some will reign who have overcome offenses and forgiven other is His name.
Some because of thier prayers.
Some because of being built up with others in love.

The Lord will make that decision who is to be rewarded to reign with Him at the judgment seat of Christ.
There are sure to be surprises.
And the last shall be first and the first shall be last.

You and I have a chance to be so rewarded as Christians.

I have yet to see that the B O C will reign in the MILLENNIUM and I missed that verse , please show that verse ?

dan p

oikonomia · Feb 1, 2023

Dan Perez said:
I have yet to see that the B O C will reign in the MILLENNIUM and I missed that verse , please show that verse ?

dan p

Hi Dan,

You want to see where "the Body of Christ" will reign in the millennial kingdom.

Every member of the Body of Christ will not reign in the millennium.
In the Bible often what OUGHT to be is not what will HAPPEN to be.

There are seven epistles in Revelation 2,3 to seven [representative] churches.
All the recipients of those letters are consituents of the church. And the church is His Body.
" . . . and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church. which is His Body, the fullness
of the One who filles all in all." (See Eph. 1:22,23)

Though, all the audience of the seven letters are members of His Body the church, there is nonetheless
the call for those who will cooperate with His grace to "overcome." (Rev. 2:7,11,17,26,3:5,12,21).
This is a call to rise up to the expected standard the Lord can provide.
This is to escape from the typical and rise to the normal: to not remain in degradation.

There is the promise of reward to reign with Him during the millennium to those who overcome.
Those who are so rewarded to reign are members of the Body of Christ. Correct?
And those who do not rise to the expected and requested level are also members of the Body of Christ. Are they not?

So my answer to you would provide these two examples;
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
and he will shepherd them with an iron rod as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces,
as I also hhae received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)

Those are consituents of the Body of Christ who WILL reign with Him in the millennium.
And again in 3:21 - "He who overcomes , to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and
sat with My Father on His throne." (Rev. 3:21)
These also are members of the Body of Christ who are ready to reign with Him in the millennium.

Those of the mystical Body of Christ who are still in defeat, not overcoming, are not ready to reign.
So they are not assigned this reward, this prize and responsibility. But are they not still members of the church universal?
Are they not still of the Body of Christ? I say, yes they are the non-reigning members of the church during the 1,000 years.

Does this answer your question?

Notice that Paul speaks of the Body all arriving at a level of the full knowledge of the Son of God, a fullgrown man.
"Until we all arrive" may not mean that we all arrive at the same time. But eventually we ALL do arrive. (Rev. 21:7)

"For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ,
Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure
of the stature of the fullness of Christ. . . " (See Eph. 4:12,13)

Test this out and get back to me? Excuse me if I lose track of how our discusion has progressed.

Dan Perez · Feb 7, 2023

oikonomia said:
Hi Dan,

You want to see where "the Body of Christ" will reign in the millennial kingdom.

Every member of the Body of Christ will not reign in the millennium.
In the Bible often what OUGHT to be is not what will HAPPEN to be.

There are seven epistles in Revelation 2,3 to seven [representative] churches.
All the recipients of those letters are consituents of the church. And the church is His Body.
" . . . and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church. which is His Body, the fullness
of the One who filles all in all." (See Eph. 1:22,23)

Though, all the audience of the seven letters are members of His Body the church, there is nonetheless
the call for those who will cooperate with His grace to "overcome." (Rev. 2:7,11,17,26,3:5,12,21).
This is a call to rise up to the expected standard the Lord can provide.
This is to escape from the typical and rise to the normal: to not remain in degradation.

There is the promise of reward to reign with Him during the millennium to those who overcome.
Those who are so rewarded to reign are members of the Body of Christ. Correct?
And those who do not rise to the expected and requested level are also members of the Body of Christ. Are they not?

So my answer to you would provide these two examples;
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
and he will shepherd them with an iron rod as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces,
as I also hhae received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)

Those are consituents of the Body of Christ who WILL reign with Him in the millennium.
And again in 3:21 - "He who overcomes , to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and
sat with My Father on His throne." (Rev. 3:21)
These also are members of the Body of Christ who are ready to reign with Him in the millennium.

Those of the mystical Body of Christ who are still in defeat, not overcoming, are not ready to reign.
So they are not assigned this reward, this prize and responsibility. But are they not still members of the church universal?
Are they not still of the Body of Christ? I say, yes they are the non-reigning members of the church during the 1,000 years.

Does this answer your question?

Notice that Paul speaks of the Body all arriving at a level of the full knowledge of the Son of God, a fullgrown man.
"Until we all arrive" may not mean that we all arrive at the same time. But eventually we ALL do arrive. (Rev. 21:7)

"For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ,
Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure
of the stature of the fullness of Christ. . . " (See Eph. 4:12,13)

Test this out and get back to me? Excuse me if I lose track of how our discusion has progressed.

Rev 21:7 says

oikonomia said:
Hi Dan,

You want to see where "the Body of Christ" will reign in the millennial kingdom.

Every member of the Body of Christ will not reign in the millennium.
In the Bible often what OUGHT to be is not what will HAPPEN to be.

There are seven epistles in Revelation 2,3 to seven [representative] churches.
All the recipients of those letters are consituents of the church. And the church is His Body.
" . . . and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church. which is His Body, the fullness
of the One who filles all in all." (See Eph. 1:22,23)

Though, all the audience of the seven letters are members of His Body the church, there is nonetheless
the call for those who will cooperate with His grace to "overcome." (Rev. 2:7,11,17,26,3:5,12,21).
This is a call to rise up to the expected standard the Lord can provide.
This is to escape from the typical and rise to the normal: to not remain in degradation.

There is the promise of reward to reign with Him during the millennium to those who overcome.
Those who are so rewarded to reign are members of the Body of Christ. Correct?
And those who do not rise to the expected and requested level are also members of the Body of Christ. Are they not?

So my answer to you would provide these two examples;
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
and he will shepherd them with an iron rod as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces,
as I also hhae received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)

Those are consituents of the Body of Christ who WILL reign with Him in the millennium.
And again in 3:21 - "He who overcomes , to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and
sat with My Father on His throne." (Rev. 3:21)
These also are members of the Body of Christ who are ready to reign with Him in the millennium.

Those of the mystical Body of Christ who are still in defeat, not overcoming, are not ready to reign.
So they are not assigned this reward, this prize and responsibility. But are they not still members of the church universal?
Are they not still of the Body of Christ? I say, yes they are the non-reigning members of the church during the 1,000 years.

Does this answer your question?

Notice that Paul speaks of the Body all arriving at a level of the full knowledge of the Son of God, a fullgrown man.
"Until we all arrive" may not mean that we all arrive at the same time. But eventually we ALL do arrive. (Rev. 21:7)

"For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ,
Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure
of the stature of the fullness of Christ. . . " (See Eph. 4:12,13)

Test this out and get back to me? Excuse me if I lose track of how our discusion has progressed.

Then ,what about 1 Cor 6:3 and 3 , that we will GOVERN the UNIVERSE and ANGELS and I say that it speaking to the B O C and when do you see , when the BEMA SEAT , called the JUDGMENT SEAT of CHRIST will begin and what are our rewards ?

What are your thoughts ?

dan p

oikonomia · Feb 8, 2023

Dan Perez said:
Rev 21:7 says

Then ,what about 1 Cor 6:3 and 3 , that we will GOVERN the UNIVERSE and ANGELS and I say that it speaking to the B O C and when do you see , when tr BEMA SEAT , called the JUDGMENT SEAT of CHRIST will begin and what are our rewards ?

What are your thoughts ?

dan p

Saved people must be conformed to the image of Christ.
It is God's eternal purpose that all believers be "confomed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)

The unruly, unconformed, untransformed and by the time of the millennium are not prepared or able to bear the responsibility.
But we know that in the new heaven and new earth after the millennium only righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 3:13)

If there is only righteousness dwelling in the eternal age then we know by then all His sons have been matured.
Some matured early and rewarded.
Some matured late, suffering loss, but eventually beame overcomers.
Therefore pertaining to the eternal age after the millennium the Body of Christ consists only of overcomers.

You mention First Corinthians 6:3. And we can inc;lude verse 2.

Both these verses are true if not all the saints are rewarded to reign with Christ in the millennium.
All saints of the church are not ready to reign at the same time.

If some have lived a life of overoming they will be prepared for the responsibility.
If some have not done so they are tardy.
But by the end of the millennium all have been perfected to inherit the responsility.

This fact makes the sentence "Do you not know that we will judge angels . . . " (v.3) still true.
This fact makes the sentence "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world" (v.2) still true.

The "WE" is general and a matter of FACT rather than a matter of TIMING when.
The "WE" simply does not tie God's hands so that the unfit to reign reign anyway along with the fit during the millennium.

Before the judgment seat (the BEMA) of Christ reward or punishment is determined for believers who are all saved forever.
"If anyone'swork which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

Question to you:
Does either verse make this sentence untrue?
"For if we being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10)

Romans 5:10 is TRUE if certain saved Christians "will receive a reward."
Romans 5:10 is also TRUE if certain saved Christians "will suffer loss but ... will be saved."

It should be the case that the judgment seat of Christ occurs in the air.
The saved receive from the Lord the things done in the body whether good or bad (SINCE, they were regenerated). (2 Cor. 5:10)

It occurs when Christ comes from the third heaven and hovers over the earth first in a cloud and then seen on a cloud.
It does not occur in Heaven.
It does not occur on the earth.

It occurs in the air after all the saints have been raptured to the air.
After that judgment seat in the air, the decisions of the Righteous Judge Jesus as to who will reign and accompany Christ are enacted as He comes TO the surface of the earth.

The remnant of believers accompanying Christ in His descent to Armageddon in Revelation 19:11-21 indicates that the rewards have just
been determined. And the disciplines also have just been determined.

Dan Perez · Feb 9, 2023

oikonomia said:
Romans 5:10 is TRUE if certain saved Christians "will receive a reward."
Romans 5:10 is also TRUE if certain saved Christians "will suffer loss but ... will be saved."

1 Cor 3:14-16 IS talking about rewards ?Is Rom 5:10 talking about rewards , so help me here . PLEASE ?

dan p

oikonomia · Feb 10, 2023

Dan Perez said:
1 Cor 3:14-16 IS talking about rewards ?Is Rom 5:10 talking about rewards , so help me here . PLEASE ?

dan p

I am not sure where I may be confusing you. Succinctly describe exactly what I am not getting across please.

Ie.
The issue is ________________________________?
And what I am failing to clarify or explain is _____________________________?

Break down your problem with what I wrote very clearly for maximum clarity of what you need explained.
You seem to have a problem with me speaking to 1 Cor. 3:14-16 (Actually I don't think I mentioned verse 16 yet).
and Rom. 5:10.

Now if there is something on which I am not clear myself I will gladly admit that matter.
Please use a few more words to explain the problem.

oikonomia · Feb 10, 2023

Dan Perez said:
1 Cor 3:14-16 IS talking about rewards ?Is Rom 5:10 talking about rewards , so help me here . PLEASE ?

dan p

Looking at your post a couple of times here.

YES - First Corinthians 3:14-15 is about both reward or the suffering of loss to saved Christians.

Romans 5:10 is about saved Christians ALL of which are saved in the realm of Christ's life since they have been reconciled to God.
It is not as precise as the matter of rewards or suffering loss as 1 Cor. 3:14-15 is.

If you see a problem, specify what problem you notice very clearly please.

Dan Perez · Feb 10, 2023

oikonomia said:
Looking at your post a couple of times here.

YES - First Corinthians 3:14-15 is about both reward or the suffering of loss to saved Christians.

Romans 5:10 is about saved Christians ALL of which are saved in the realm of Christ's life since they have been reconciled to God.
It is not as precise as the matter of rewards or suffering loss as 1 Cor. 3:14-15 is.

If you see a problem, specify what problem you notice very clearly please.

oikonomia said:
Saved people must be conformed to the image of Christ.
It is God's eternal purpose that all believers be "confomed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)

The unruly, unconformed, untransformed and by the time of the millennium are not prepared or able to bear the responsibility.
But we know that in the new heaven and new earth after the millennium only righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 3:13)

If there is only righteousness dwelling in the eternal age then we know by then all His sons have been matured.
Some matured early and rewarded.
Some matured late, suffering loss, but eventually beame overcomers.
Therefore pertaining to the eternal age after the millennium the Body of Christ consists only of overcomers.

You mention First Corinthians 6:3. And we can inc;lude verse 2.

Both these verses are true if not all the saints are rewarded to reign with Christ in the millennium.
All saints of the church are not ready to reign at the same time.

If some have lived a life of overoming they will be prepared for the responsibility.
If some have not done so they are tardy.
But by the end of the millennium all have been perfected to inherit the responsility.

This fact makes the sentence "Do you not know that we will judge angels . . . " (v.3) still true.
This fact makes the sentence "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world" (v.2) still true.

The "WE" is general and a matter of FACT rather than a matter of TIMING when.
The "WE" simply does not tie God's hands so that the unfit to reign reign anyway along with the fit during the millennium.

Before the judgment seat (the BEMA) of Christ reward or punishment is determined for believers who are all saved forever.
"If anyone'swork which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

Question to you:
Does either verse make this sentence untrue?
"For if we being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10)

Romans 5:10 is TRUE if certain saved Christians "will receive a reward."
Romans 5:10 is also TRUE if certain saved Christians "will suffer loss but ... will be saved."

It should be the case that the judgment seat of Christ occurs in the air.
The saved receive from the Lord the things done in the body whether good or bad (SINCE, they were regenerated). (2 Cor. 5:10)

It occurs when Christ comes from the third heaven and hovers over the earth first in a cloud and then seen on a cloud.
It does not occur in Heaven.
It does not occur on the earth.

It occurs in the air after all the saints have been raptured to the air.
After that judgment seat in the air, the decisions of the Righteous Judge Jesus as to who will reign and accompany Christ are enacted as He comes TO the surface of the earth.

The remnant of believers accompanying Christ in His descent to Armageddon in Revelation 19:11-21 indicates that the rewards have just
been determined. And the disciplines also have just been determined.

And , looking at Rom 5:10 do not see Paul speaking about rewards or , is there another verse ?

You were talking about the word CHURCH and is the CHURCH in Acts 7:38 the same Church as in Rom 16:1 or is it the same as in Rev 2:1 /

I define EKKLESIA as meaning ASSEMBLY or CONGREGATION , as EK means out of and LESIS means a calling out . so how do you see it ?

dan p

oikonomia · Feb 11, 2023

Dan Perez said:
And , looking at Rom 5:10 do not see Paul speaking about rewards or , is there another verse ?

Romans 5:10 is an introduction to his explanation of Sanctification running from 5:12 through to 8:13.
This Sanctification is not merely one of being set aside in a holy position as dedicated to God.
This Sanctification is about subjectively having Christ's life spread from within outward into every part of our personality.

Think of total salvation in two main steps.

1.) A judicial redemption, reconciled to God, having the enmity between us and God removed by His DEATH on the cross.

2.) An organic sanctification, being saved in the whole realm of His resurrection LIFE permeating and filling up more and more of our life.

"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled."

I am now going to say the same thing again in other words. That is in words expressing TIME - past and future.

1.) Judicially we HAVE BEEN [past] reconciled to God through the death of His Son.

2.) Organically we WILL BE [future] saved by the sanctification of His resurrection life.

I am now going to say the same thing in reference to the church universal, the mystical Body of Christ.

1.) Everyone who is reconciled to God through the DEATH of His Son is a constituent of the church universal.

2.) Every constituent of the church must be eventually Sanctified subjectively in the realm of His indwelling divine life, His life in resurrection.

Now you ask, I think, Ie. "Isn't there some concept of rewards there in Romans 5:10?"
My reply would be, that one might hunt and find some relation to rewards in the second part of that verse.
" . . . much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled."

What I mean is that it is not hard for me to shoe into an exposition of Romans 5:10b SOMETHING about rewards.
By the time of the millennial kingdom, Christ, at His judgment seat, will REWARD those who He deems have taking the opportunity
during their lives to be SANCTIFIED after knowing they were reconciled to God through His death.
They allowed the Lord to save them dispositionally in their personality and conduct by the growth and influence of His resurrection life.

Having said that, I say Paul is not speaking too much about rewards in Romans 5:10 as he is in other places like First Corinthians 3:14,15.
BUT . . . if you really wish to hunt out some relationship to reward given at the judgment seat of Christ, you could conceivably derive that from Romans 5:10. I don't think Paul is elaborating specifically on that then.

You are welcome to disagree and say "No, there is the matter of reward there in Romans 5:10."
I will not insist there is not if you want to see reward there.

In the PAST I was reconciled to God through the death of His Son at Calvary.
As to my FUTURE I must "much more" be saved dispositionally by His indwelling resurrection life
I am [now] being pretty redundant and verbose.

Dan Perez said:
You were talking about the word CHURCH and is the CHURCH in Acts 7:38 the same Church as in Rom 16:1 or is it the same as in Rev 2:1 /

Yes, the whole discussion relates to the universal church. That is the church which is His Body covering all time from her inception to eternity future, her consumation. It covers all places, all times, all who have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son and are subject to the process of being much more saved by Christ's indwelling.

Is the church mentioned in Acts 7:38?
"This is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him in Mount Sinai and with our fathers, and who received living oracles of God."
This "church" ort "assembly" is not the new testament church. But eventually they are included in the church in the sense of having Christ's life indwelling them, that they may be "saved in His life." God determines which of them was "reconciled to God through the death of His Son" because of , let us say, their faith in God's word, especially the offerings, sacrifices done as shadows of the Christ to come and HIS one time offering of Himself.

If you grill me now as to how God will do this, I do not have all those details. But the New Jerusalem which is the climax of the church has the Old Testaments saints under the Mt. Sinai law giving represented by the names of the twelve tribes over the twelve gates.

"It had a great and high wall and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are the names of the twelve rtibes of the sons of Isael." (Rev. 21:12). This proves that old covenant believers of the twelve tribes are included in this Bride and Wife of Christ in eternity.

And the new covenant saints of the new testament church are included as signified by the names of the twelve new testament apostles on the foundations of the city.

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundation, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Rev. 21:14)

Old convenat saints are there in eternity in the consummation of the church.
New covenant saints are there in eternity in the consummation of the church.

If I recall rightly, the same word in the Greek for the assembly is also used concerning an unruly, unbelieving and riotous mob of opposers to Paul's preaching in Ephesus.

"For we are in danger of being charged with insurrection for today's affair, since there is no reason for it . . this disorderly gathering. And when he had said these things, he dismissed the assembly." (See Acts 19:40,41)

My point being we New Testament readers must be discerning when we see EKKLESIA or related word. Does EVERY mention of an ekklesia mean the new testament church? This riotous mob was not the Lord's assembly. But it was an assembly.
And the assembly at the foot of Mt. Sinai was not YET the new testament EKKLESIA. But all who Christ saved will be in eternity.

The church mentioned in Romans 16:1 is the local church in a city called Cenchrea. The church that was there - in Cenchrea.
Revelation 2:1 is letter to "the church in Ephesus" for the benefit to all the churches and to the church universal.

"I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a deaconess of the church which is in Cenchrea." (Rom. 16:1)

The universal church is that which every saved believer belongs to in all of time in every place throughout history.
The "church which is in Cenchrea" was the local expression of this universal church.
Like "the church in Jerusalem" or "the church in Phillippi" or "the church in Corinth" or "the church of the Thessalonians" or "the church in Laodicea" . . . etc,

The local expression in practicality of the universal church. The church in the locality of Cenchrea including all the saved Christians in Cenchrea. This is this church that one can take a problem to (Matt. 18:17).

"And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to hear the church also let him be to you just like the Gentile and the tax collector." (v.17)

This is not the universal church. We cannot take a problem between a few brothers to the universal church.
We can take a problem between Christians to the practical local assembly- the local church which is somewhere. in some place.
"Phoebe our sister, who is a deaconess of the [local] church which is in Cenchrea."

If you have a point behind your question, you might just make the point you wish.
You do not have to place it in the form of a question. I have not read all your posts.
You may have made some point elsewhere which your questions imply. I may not know what that point is you
are driving at. Is it something to do with Israel and the church?

oikonomia · Feb 11, 2023

Dan Perez said:
And , looking at Rom 5:10 do not see Paul speaking about rewards or , is there another verse ?

You were talking about the word CHURCH and is the CHURCH in Acts 7:38 the same Church as in Rom 16:1 or is it the same as in Rev 2:1 /

I define EKKLESIA as meaning ASSEMBLY or CONGREGATION , as EK means out of and LESIS means a calling out . so how do you see it ?

dan p

The riches book in the New Testament on the subjet of the church may be the epistle Ephesians.

There we see the church in a few forms.
She is the assembly called out.
She is kingdom or a commonwealth.
She is the Body of Christ.
She is the one new man.
She is a Bride and Wife.
She is also a warrior, a fighter, with the armor of God for spiritual warfare.

This church is rich in meaning. She is an asembly. But she is much more than just a gathering togethert to congregate.
She has to be filled with Christ's life to be His Body for Him to express His movement.
She has to be a total new humanity - a one new man.
That is more than just being called out to assemble together.

We cannot be a healthy expression of the church is we JUST come together unsanctified, untransformed, unconformed to Christ.
Yes, we may still be an assembly. But to a healthy expression of the church Christ said He will build, WE NEED working on to be built together in His life and love by transformation. We need much more of the much more being saved in His life.

Dan Perez · Feb 14, 2023

oikonomia said:
Hi Dan,

You want to see where "the Body of Christ" will reign in the millennial kingdom.

Every member of the Body of Christ will not reign in the millennium.
In the Bible often what OUGHT to be is not what will HAPPEN to be.

There are seven epistles in Revelation 2,3 to seven [representative] churches.
All the recipients of those letters are consituents of the church. And the church is His Body.
" . . . and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church. which is His Body, the fullness
of the One who filles all in all." (See Eph. 1:22,23)

Though, all the audience of the seven letters are members of His Body the church, there is nonetheless
the call for those who will cooperate with His grace to "overcome." (Rev. 2:7,11,17,26,3:5,12,21).
This is a call to rise up to the expected standard the Lord can provide.
This is to escape from the typical and rise to the normal: to not remain in degradation.

There is the promise of reward to reign with Him during the millennium to those who overcome.
Those who are so rewarded to reign are members of the Body of Christ. Correct?
And those who do not rise to the expected and requested level are also members of the Body of Christ. Are they not?

So my answer to you would provide these two examples;
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
and he will shepherd them with an iron rod as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces,
as I also hhae received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)

Those are consituents of the Body of Christ who WILL reign with Him in the millennium.
And again in 3:21 - "He who overcomes , to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and
sat with My Father on His throne." (Rev. 3:21)
These also are members of the Body of Christ who are ready to reign with Him in the millennium.

Those of the mystical Body of Christ who are still in defeat, not overcoming, are not ready to reign.
So they are not assigned this reward, this prize and responsibility. But are they not still members of the church universal?
Are they not still of the Body of Christ? I say, yes they are the non-reigning members of the church during the 1,000 years.

Does this answer your question?

Notice that Paul speaks of the Body all arriving at a level of the full knowledge of the Son of God, a fullgrown man.
"Until we all arrive" may not mean that we all arrive at the same time. But eventually we ALL do arrive. (Rev. 21:7)

"For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ,
Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure
of the stature of the fullness of Christ. . . " (See Eph. 4:12,13)

Test this out and get back to me? Excuse me if I lose track of how our discusion has progressed.

So , all of Rev 2:1 ---Rev 3:22 are part of the BODY of CHRIST ?

Would Rev 3:15 apply to the B O C ?

How do you see , and how do you see them ?

dan p

oikonomia · Feb 19, 2023

Dan Perez said:
So , all of Rev 2:1 ---Rev 3:22 are part of the BODY of CHRIST ?

Yes.

Dan Perez said:
Would Rev 3:15 apply to the B O C ?

Yes.

We must not confuse the condition of a church with the position of a church.

There is a healthy expression of His Body.
And there is a difficient expression of His Body.
But the church is still His Body.

Though each church has its defeated ones and its overcoming ones, they are still part of His Body.
Though each church receive warning, rebuke sometimes, admonition, and adjustments, they are still in the eyes of God golden lampstands.

Dan Perez said:
How do you see , and how do you see them ?

The seven distinct local churches as seven golden lampstands before God..
Their STANDING is as the local churches repectively means they are the local expressions of the church universal.
And the church universal is the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:20b,21) - " . . . the church, which is His Body . . . ".

When we speak of the condition of each church that does not effect their standing before God as golden lampstands for "the testimony of Jesus."

Look at the first epistle to a church, the church in Corinth. They had many problems. They were a typical and realistic local church.
Yet Paul said they were Christ's body regardless. The very FIRST problem Paul tackles in his letter to Corinth is the problem of their being divided.
That is because the Body should not be divided.

"Now I beseech you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be attuned in the same mind and in the same opinion." (1:10)

"Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?" (1:13)

"For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ." (12:12)

"For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit. For the body is not one member but many.

"Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually." (v.27)

Inspite of the many problems the church in Corinth had, Paul still said that they were the Body of Christ.
The same is true of the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3. Each church there, as in the city of Corinth, was not the Body of Christ in the universal sense, but an expression of the Body of Christ in Corinth, in Ephesus, in Smyrna. in Pergamos, in Thyatira, etc. etc

Dan Perez · Feb 20, 2023

oikonomia said:
Yes.

Yes.

We must not confuse the condition of a church with the position of a church.

There is a healthy expression of His Body.
And there is a difficient expression of His Body.
But the church is still His Body.

Though each church has its defeated ones and its overcoming ones, they are still part of His Body.
Though each church receive warning, rebuke sometimes, admonition, and adjustments, they are still in the eyes of God golden lampstands.

The seven distinct local churches as seven golden lampstands before God..
Their STANDING is as the local churches repectively means they are the local expressions of the church universal.
And the church universal is the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:20b,21) - " . . . the church, which is His Body . . . ".

When we speak of the condition of each church that does not effect their standing before God as golden lampstands for "the testimony of Jesus."

Look at the first epistle to a church, the church in Corinth. They had many problems. They were a typical and realistic local church.
Yet Paul said they were Christ's body regardless. The very FIRST problem Paul tackles in his letter to Corinth is the problem of their being divided.
That is because the Body should not be divided.

"Now I beseech you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be attuned in the same mind and in the same opinion." (1:10)

"Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?" (1:13)

"For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ." (12:12)

"For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit. For the body is not one member but many.

"Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually." (v.27)

Inspite of the many problems the church in Corinth had, Paul still said that they were the Body of Christ.
The same is true of the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3. Each church there, as in the city of Corinth, was not the Body of Christ in the universal sense, but an expression of the Body of Christ in Corinth, in Ephesus, in Smyrna. in Pergamos, in Thyatira, etc. etc

And in Acts 7:38 Israel is called a CHURCH in the WILDERNESS , so are they part of the B O C ? How do you see that verse ?

And since Paul says in 1 Cor 12:17 that the B O C is made up EYES , HEARING , SMELLING , and what part does CHRIST spue out of his mouth , if Rev 3:15 is true , so help me out HERE , PLEASE ?

dan p

oikonomia · Feb 20, 2023

Dan Perez said:
And in Acts 7:38 Israel is called a CHURCH in the WILDERNESS , so are they part of the B O C ? How do you see that verse ?

At that time they were not the church as the Body of Christ because His Body the church had not come into existence yet.

Dan Perez said:
And since Paul says in 1 Cor 12:17 that the B O C is made up EYES , HEARING , SMELLING , and what part does CHRIST spue out of his mouth , if Rev 3:15 is true , so help me out HERE , PLEASE ?

dan p

I think you confuse the matter of the kingdom with the Body of Christ.

The members of the Body of Christ are members because within them they have the life of Christ.

Look at your human body. You teeth are part of your body because something of your life is in your teeth.
But if you have dentures, they are not a part of your body organically because they do not have your life in them.
All that is a part of your body is so organically because your life is in those parts.

Now you may have a healthy member of your body. And it functions well.
And you may have an unhealthy member of your body which doesn't function well.
Yet whether healthy or unhealthy both parts are members of your body.

And if the body of yours is really healthy you are expressed well.
Your LIFE is in your body.

All the members of Christ's body are so because organically they possess the life of Christ.
Yet the Body can be not functioning until all members are healed, healthy, vibrant, and function normally.

Come now to Revelation 3:15 about the Lord spewing some out of his mouth as an allegory of bad tasting beverage.

"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am about too spew you our of my mouth."

Are these Christians displeasing to the Lord? Yes.
Are these spewed ont of His mouth unsaved? No.

Are these Christians over coming or defeated? They are defeated.
Is there being defeated a cause of them to NO LONGER be members of Christ's body? No.

Is being in the Body of Christ put you beyond discipline? No.
Is being under discipline a cause for you to lose the life of Christ? No.

The analogy of a lukewarm beverage which is not tasty to the Lord and is spewed out should not
be thought to mean:

1.) He eternally withdraws His divine life from within you.
2.) You are no longer eternally redeemed.
3.) In the past you were a member of His mystical Body but ever after are no longer.
4.) Eventual recovery to normal and healthy function is impossible.

The spewing out of His mouth is of something He desires to ENJOY.
It is not the ejection of His tongue.

The requirements of the kingdom living are related to the church and the Body.
But though they are related there is some distinction.

Once again, the members of His Body are members because they possess His LIFE.
The LIFE which the Lord gives is eternal and not on LOAN.

And being members of His Body with His life does not put one beyond being disciplined by Him in relation to the kingdom living.

Dan Perez · Apr 3, 2023

oikonomia said:
Hi Dan,

You want to see where "the Body of Christ" will reign in the millennial kingdom.

Every member of the Body of Christ will not reign in the millennium.
In the Bible often what OUGHT to be is not what will HAPPEN to be.

There are seven epistles in Revelation 2,3 to seven [representative] churches.
All the recipients of those letters are consituents of the church. And the church is His Body.
" . . . and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church. which is His Body, the fullness
of the One who filles all in all." (See Eph. 1:22,23)

Though, all the audience of the seven letters are members of His Body the church, there is nonetheless
the call for those who will cooperate with His grace to "overcome." (Rev. 2:7,11,17,26,3:5,12,21).
This is a call to rise up to the expected standard the Lord can provide.
This is to escape from the typical and rise to the normal: to not remain in degradation.

There is the promise of reward to reign with Him during the millennium to those who overcome.
Those who are so rewarded to reign are members of the Body of Christ. Correct?
And those who do not rise to the expected and requested level are also members of the Body of Christ. Are they not?

oikonomia said:
Hi Dan,

You want to see where "the Body of Christ" will reign in the millennial kingdom.

Every member of the Body of Christ will not reign in the millennium.
In the Bible often what OUGHT to be is not what will HAPPEN to be.

There are seven epistles in Revelation 2,3 to seven [representative] churches.
All the recipients of those letters are consituents of the church. And the church is His Body.
" . . . and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church. which is His Body, the fullness
of the One who filles all in all." (See Eph. 1:22,23)

Though, all the audience of the seven letters are members of His Body the church, there is nonetheless
the call for those who will cooperate with His grace to "overcome." (Rev. 2:7,11,17,26,3:5,12,21).
This is a call to rise up to the expected standard the Lord can provide.
This is to escape from the typical and rise to the normal: to not remain in degradation.

There is the promise of reward to reign with Him during the millennium to those who overcome.
Those who are so rewarded to reign are members of the Body of Christ. Correct?
And those who do not rise to the expected and requested level are also members of the Body of Christ. Are they not?

So my answer to you would provide these two examples;
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
and he will shepherd them with an iron rod as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces,
as I also hhae received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)

Those are consituents of the Body of Christ who WILL reign with Him in the millennium.
And again in 3:21 - "He who overcomes , to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and
sat with My Father on His throne." (Rev. 3:21)
These also are members of the Body of Christ who are ready to reign with Him in the millennium.

Those of the mystical Body of Christ who are still in defeat, not overcoming, are not ready to reign.
So they are not assigned this reward, this prize and responsibility. But are they not still members of the church universal?
Are they not still of the Body of Christ? I say, yes they are the non-reigning members of the church during the 1,000 years.

Does this answer your question?

Notice that Paul speaks of the Body all arriving at a level of the full knowledge of the Son of God, a fullgrown man.
"Until we all arrive" may not mean that we all arrive at the same time. But eventually we ALL do arrive. (Rev. 21:7)

"For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ,
Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure
of the stature of the fullness of Christ. . . " (See Eph. 4:12,13)

Test this out and get back to me? Excuse me if I lose track of how our discusion has progressed.

The B O C can not be at 2 laces at one time .

I do not see the B O C in the MILLENIINAL KINGDOM as the B O C will be GOVERNING the UNIVERSE and the ANGELS 1 Cor 1-5 .

dan p

anetazo · Apr 3, 2023

Gods Elect will reign with Jesus during the millennium. Documentation, Ezekiel chapter 44, revelation chapter 20, romans chapter 8. The Election are called Zadok during millennium. Read Ezekiel chapter 44. How is this possible?? Read ephesians chapter 1,and romans chapter 8. God's Election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. This should be self explanatory. The election have destiny. Those with free will have spirit of slumber. God's election have holy spirit. First Peter chapter 1 will document, God's Election have holy spirit. God judged, and predestined His Election in the first earth age. The position for elect can't be volunteered for. I documented this. The Zadok, Elect, will be priests, judges and ambassadors during millennium.

Marilyn C · Apr 4, 2023

Dan Perez said:
In Matt 20:21 , the mother asked Jesus if her 2 sons may sit , the one on thy right hand and the other son sit on his left hand , in thy kingdom .

OR with rather sit and reign with Christ as 2 Tim 2:11 reads , Faithful is the Word , For since we died together with Him , we also live together with Him .

And verse 12 says , If we endue , we will also REIGN TOGETHER if we deny Him , he also will deny us .

Why did Paul use the word DENY ?

Can it be what we preach ?

Preach OT LAW /

Preach the NEW COVENANT ?

What did Paul preach ?

What say you ?

dan p

Hi Dan,

Matt. 20: 21 refers to rulership over Israel. The timing will be when the Lord rules through the 12 apostles over Israel from the New Jerusalem. Remember Jesus told the 12 disciples that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel, and this is shown in Revelation. (Matt. 19: 28 Rev. 21: 14)

We, the Body of Christ will rule from the Lord`s own throne in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21)

oikonomia · Apr 4, 2023

Dan Perez said:
The B O C can not be at 2 laces at one time .

I do not see the B O C in the MILLENIINAL KINGDOM as the B O C will be GOVERNING the UNIVERSE and the ANGELS 1 Cor 1-5 .

dan p

The constituents of the church can be in two places during the millenium. The overcomers will be rewarded to reign with Christ.
And the defeated will be in something called "the outer darkness."

You may have a student body that all graduate eventually. But some graduate on time and others have to attend
remedial classes, perhaps summer school. Eventually these late graduaters also graduate. Their remedial time is temporary.

So it is as the millennial kingdom.
The rewarded to reign will enjoy their reward.
But those needing perecting which they alluded or avoided during the previous ages, will be in "the outer darkness."

oikonomia · Apr 4, 2023

It is good that Christians see that the church is the Body of Christ.
But the main epistles on the church is Ephesians. And there the Body is one aspect, one characteristic of the church.

She carries the characteristics also of a kingdom, commonwealth.
She carries the characteristic of a temple for God - a habitation of God in spirit.
She has the aspect of a family.
She has the aspect of a new man - one new man.
She has the aspect of a wife.
She has the aspect of a warrior.

Now all these are along with her being a body for Christ.
I am only saying that the Body of Christ is one aspect.
And as to His reigning in the kingdom age we should not think ONLY the Body of Christ is important.

To think only of the church as His Body may hinder one from appreciating that some of the other aspects of the church
are also very significant in His gradual outworking of His eternal purpose.

Dan Perez · Apr 4, 2023

oikonomia said:
Yes.

Yes.

We must not confuse the condition of a church with the position of a church.

There is a healthy expression of His Body.
And there is a difficient expression of His Body.
But the church is still His Body.

Though each church has its defeated ones and its overcoming ones, they are still part of His Body.
Though each church receive warning, rebuke sometimes, admonition, and adjustments, they are still in the eyes of God golden lampstands.

The seven distinct local churches as seven golden lampstands before God..
Their STANDING is as the local churches repectively means they are the local expressions of the church universal.
And the church universal is the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:20b,21) - " . . . the church, which is His Body . . . ".

When we speak of the condition of each church that does not effect their standing before God as golden lampstands for "the testimony of Jesus."

Look at the first epistle to a church, the church in Corinth. They had many problems. They were a typical and realistic local church.
Yet Paul said they were Christ's body regardless. The very FIRST problem Paul tackles in his letter to Corinth is the problem of their being divided.
That is because the Body should not be divided.

"Now I beseech you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be attuned in the same mind and in the same opinion." (1:10)

"Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?" (1:13)

"For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ." (12:12)

"For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit. For the body is not one member but many.

"Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually." (v.27)

Inspite of the many problems the church in Corinth had, Paul still said that they were the Body of Christ.
The same is true of the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3. Each church there, as in the city of Corinth, was not the Body of Christ in the universal sense, but an expression of the Body of Christ in Corinth, in Ephesus, in Smyrna. in Pergamos, in Thyatira, etc. etc

In your post #32 you say that Rev 3:15 is the B O C !

How do you INTERPRET Rev 15 says because I know your works , , that thou art NEITHER COLD nor HOT ,

Verse 16 says , because thou art Lukewarm , and neither COLD or HOT , I will SPUE thee out of my MOUTH .

Your thoughts , that parts of the B O C can be SPUE OUT , do you agree ??

dan p

WHO WILL REIGN WITH CHRIST ?

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Pre-tribulation.

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