The Lord's prayer - how Catholics see it.

When I was Protestant, we used to rattle off "For the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory are Yours, now and forever" at the end. When I was still a new Catholic, it took me a while to stop short at the words "... and deliver us from evil".

Bishop Fulton Sheen in a DVD I've got somewhere said it should really be "... and deliver us from the evil one."

We still say the doxology as Catholics, but separately. The original "Our Father" as taught by Christ didn't include that phrase.

Matthew 6:9-13 NIV

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:​

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]

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Try as I might Xeno to find fault in your comments above (normally your postings are replete with errors, over-simplifications, straw-men, steel-men, and general heresy that has me reaching for my kindling) - this time I am in complete agreement.

I would note that the order of the supplications in this prayer is also useful - first and foremost is the hope that God’s name be honored and praised by all Creation. This comes before the Kingdom, before our needs, before our forgiveness.

Peace and have a good weekend brother

Xeno.of.athens said:

The Lord's Prayer, also known as the Our Father, is a central prayer in the Catholic Church and is considered to be the model prayer given by Jesus to his disciples (Matthew 6:9-13, Luke 11:2-4).

From a Catholic perspective, the Lord's Prayer contains a profound summary of Christian faith and practice. It starts with addressing God as "Our Father" which emphasizes the belief in God as the loving and merciful creator of all things. The prayer also contains petitions for God's kingdom to come, his will to be done, for daily needs such as bread and forgiveness of sins, and protection from temptation and evil.

The Catholic Church teaches that by praying the Lord's Prayer, Catholics are expressing their belief in God's fatherhood, their dependence on him and their trust in his care and love. They are also expressing their desire to live in accordance with his will, to receive the necessities of life, and to be forgiven and protected from evil. It is a reminder of the call to live a life of holiness, to love God and neighbour.

The Church also encourages Catholics to meditate on the words of the Lord's Prayer and to make it a part of their daily prayer life, as it is an excellent way to deepen one's relationship with God, to grow in faith, and to develop a spirit of humility and dependence on God.

In summary, the Lord's Prayer is a central prayer in the Catholic Church, it expresses belief in God's fatherhood, dependence on him, trust in his care and love, desire to live in accordance with his will and receive necessities of life, forgiveness, and protection from evil. It is a reminder of the call to live a life of holiness, to love God and neighbour and it is encouraged to make it a part of daily prayer life.

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It looks a lot like part of the Kaddish or a [Christian] variation on the Kaddish (Source):

Exalted and hallowed be God's great name
in the world which God created, according to plan.
May God's majesty be revealed in the days of our lifetime
and the life of all Israel -- speedily, imminently, to which we say Amen.
....
May the prayers and supplications Of all Israel
Be accepted by their Father who is in Heaven; And say, Amen


(Luke 11) Father, may your name be honored;
may your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And do not lead us into temptation.”


(Matt 6)Our Father in heaven, may your name be honored,
may your kingdom come,
may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts, as we ourselves have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one

Yekcidmij said:

It looks a lot like part of the Kaddish or a [Christian] variation on the Kaddish (Source):

Exalted and hallowed be God's great name
in the world which God created, according to plan.
May God's majesty be revealed in the days of our lifetime
and the life of all Israel -- speedily, imminently, to which we say Amen.
....
May the prayers and supplications Of all Israel
Be accepted by their Father who is in Heaven; And say, Amen


(Luke 11) Father, may your name be honored;
may your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And do not lead us into temptation.”


(Matt 6)Our Father in heaven, may your name be honored,
may your kingdom come,
may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts, as we ourselves have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one

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Could also point out that it has some very close affinities with abbreviated forms of the Eighteen Benedictions.:

Xeno.of.athens said:

When did the Kaddish first appear?

The earliest written records of the Kaddish prayer date back to the 9th century CE, in the Talmud and other Jewish texts.

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Sure, that's the earliest written form we have available. It's also the earliest written/collected Jewish prayer book available, if I'm not mistaken. So I'm not sure what the dating of that particular document really says. Besides, among the critical commentaries (eg Allison and Davies) I'm not saying anything different. Harrington observes the same in Sacra Pagina's commentary:



Source: The Gospel according to Matthew : Harrington, Daniel J : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

As far as I know, Sacra Pagina is a Catholic commentary, yes? Harrington is obviously refering to either the Kaddish and/or the Eighteen Benedictions (long or short versions).

Xeno.of.athens said:

It is from Collegeville in 1982 according to the title and copyright pages so, yes it is Catholic, possibly from a more "liberal" perspective (as evangelicals may say), or scholarly perspective (as Catholics may say). It is an opinion, no doubt backed with abundant evidence of one kind or another. I cannot say I am confident that it is a view that the Church would promulgate as her own teaching.

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Ok fair enough. I wasn't really disagreeing with your initial post either, just making observations. I don't think what I posted contradicts or detracts from the points of your original post, and may in fact enhance it.

Xeno.of.athens said:

The Lord's Prayer, also known as the Our Father, is a central prayer in the Catholic Church and is considered to be the model prayer given by Jesus to his disciples (Matthew 6:9-13, Luke 11:2-4).

From a Catholic perspective, the Lord's Prayer contains a profound summary of Christian faith and practice. It starts with addressing God as "Our Father" which emphasizes the belief in God as the loving and merciful creator of all things. The prayer also contains petitions for God's kingdom to come, his will to be done, for daily needs such as bread and forgiveness of sins, and protection from temptation and evil.

The Catholic Church teaches that by praying the Lord's Prayer, Catholics are expressing their belief in God's fatherhood, their dependence on him and their trust in his care and love. They are also expressing their desire to live in accordance with his will, to receive the necessities of life, and to be forgiven and protected from evil. It is a reminder of the call to live a life of holiness, to love God and neighbour.

The Church also encourages Catholics to meditate on the words of the Lord's Prayer and to make it a part of their daily prayer life, as it is an excellent way to deepen one's relationship with God, to grow in faith, and to develop a spirit of humility and dependence on God.

In summary, the Lord's Prayer is a central prayer in the Catholic Church, it expresses belief in God's fatherhood, dependence on him, trust in his care and love, desire to live in accordance with his will and receive necessities of life, forgiveness, and protection from evil. It is a reminder of the call to live a life of holiness, to love God and neighbour and it is encouraged to make it a part of daily prayer life.

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Hello friend,

I was born in the province of Quebec, i was raised as a catholic ( french speaking people here are generally raised as catholic)

I learned all these prayers and we had little books called ( petit livre de cathechese) with all the saints names, prayers , songs how to behave etc.. this is what we had. Mass were given in latin ( no one understood ) we did not have bibles, the priests did not want us to have this. we did the cross sign, knelt before statues etc...

Then one day, late fifties early sixties they changed their minds we had mass in french and easy access to the bibles in french. Guess what, not long after that, the churches were empty! People once they had access to written bibles in french came to see that what the priests preached was different from the written word. Yes different. What yo call the lords prayer and the hail Mary was them learned by heart at a young age. Many in the catholic church used these prayers automatically withoud thinking, it bacame a reflex, they repeat over end over the words they learned. Find radio programs (internet) in small villages of the province of Quebec or new-Brunswick you will hear women praying the same over and over for hours ... this becomes repetitive words and GOD says clearly not to use repetitive prayers devoid of meaning, the lord does not listen to these prayers, what he wants is a prayer from the heart, nothing more, Jesus did give us an example for us on how to pray, it is an excellent example but we must talk from the heart not from memory.

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

These verses above are what Jesus says about prayer. I trust in the son of GOD teachings completely.

Peace,

JFF

Xeno.of.athens said:

Did your hand missals not include a translation of the Latin text into French? I have read that Hand missals in the 1950s and 1960s for French Canadians would generally have included the Latin text of the Mass as well as a translation into French. The Catholic Church traditionally used Latin as the liturgical language and the Missals were written in Latin, but as the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) came into effect, the use of vernacular languages, such as French, in the liturgy became more widespread. As a result, French Canadian hand missals in the 1960s would likely have included translations of the Latin text into French.

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in the mid sixties they were in french but not easily available. I have now from a few years back a very nice papal edition from 1956, translated by crampon, really nice edition leather bound, illustrated. it was passed on to be from my mother as a gift since i liked to read it.

Xeno.of.athens said:

I have also read that Before the 1970s, Catholic teaching in French Canada regarding the possession and reading of Bibles by Catholics was generally that it was encouraged, but not necessarily required. The Catholic Church has traditionally emphasized the importance of reading and studying the Bible, but it was often difficult for laypeople to access Bibles in their own languages, especially in French Canada. Bibles were not as readily available as they are today, and many people were not able to read or understand Latin, the language in which the Church's official Bible, the Vulgate, was written.

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the priests then told the people to attend church. Reading the bible was not necessary as they said and you mentioned. not many people had bibles then in french it was rare and hard to find.

Xeno.of.athens said:

That being said, the Catholic Church's position on the reading of the Bible by laypeople was not as restrictive as some might assume. The Catholic Church has always encouraged the laity to read the Bible, and has provided various resources to help them understand and interpret it correctly. However, the approach was more formal and less personal, the Bible was not seen as a personal possession for all Catholics, but more as a liturgical text. It was not until the Second Vatican Council that the Catholic Church began to promote the use of vernacular languages in the liturgy and made a renewed emphasis on the importance of laypeople reading the Bible in their own language, which led to the availability of French Bibles for the French Canadian population. yes it took a very very long time indeed for people to get a bible they could read.


Do you think those people went to Protestant churches, were the protestant churches suddenly filled by them?

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NO people completely stopped going to church period . They were fed up by the lies and constant manipulation from the clergy. they were involved in the government not to say they were the government in the province of Quebec, they abused this power quite a lot. Basically did not do what they preached and many people lost faith because of the clergy. by tradition people still got their children baptized, went to a church wedding but that is pretty much it. it is a terrible situation really.

JFF

Xeno.of.athens said:

What you've written does sound terrible.

I have read that in the 1960s, the state of Catholicism in Quebec, Canada was marked by significant social and political changes. At that time, Quebec was predominantly Catholic, with the Church playing a significant role in the daily lives of the people, and the clergy held significant influence over the province's political and social climate.

During this period, Quebec was undergoing a period of rapid modernization and secularization, which led to a decline in religious adherence and practice among the population. This period is commonly referred to as the "Quiet Revolution" and it was marked by a widespread rejection of traditional Catholic values, and a move towards a more secular and liberal society.

As a result, the Catholic Church's influence on society and politics in Quebec diminished during this period, as many Quebecers became more critical of the Church's teachings, and began to reject its traditional authority. This led to a decline in the number of religious vocations, a decrease in Mass attendance, and a decline in the number of Catholic schools and institutions.

Additionally, the Catholic Church was also facing challenges from the rise of nationalism movements in Quebec, which sought to promote the province's distinct culture and identity, separate from the rest of Canada. This led to a growing sense of alienation among Quebecers from the Catholic Church and from the Catholic Church's traditional teachings.

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All correct except the last paragraph the when the nationalist movement was in progress the church was already dead and done.

the only people i see attending church today are 75 years or more, many of the churches are now closed a few remain however. many or the churches built before 1920 are very beautiful i still go sometimes to visit.

Blessings,

JFF

I would say that the Lord's Prayer is something, in its variety of versions that we all share. The Australian Anglican Version, relying on the work of The English Language Liturgical Consultation 1988, and the work published in Praying Together. The controversial line was Save us from the time of trial, which brings a heightened sense of eschatology to the text, and was argued in this way.


This stuff still seems a bit controversial, judging by the reaction to comments made by Pope Francis on the traditional rendering of the line 'deliver us from evil".