The Fall of the West (It's Happening Now)
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stevevw
inquisitive
The Fall of the West is not just based on the declining standard of marriage. Though marriage plays a prominent role I think as its associated with the family and this is the basis for a stable and strong society. But I think its a general decline in moral standards. Marriage is a symptom of a general decline in cultural identity.
Changes in the definition of marriage have coincided with cultural change more generally like with the sexual revolution and the questioning of moral standards generally. But this has also coincided with the success of science and tech in revolutionizing our way of life such as the invention of the contraceptive pill and later abortion which freed women and men for that matter for the risk and responsibility of having a child. This further undermined the idea of TM and families.
I think Post Modernism which has evolved from the age of enlightenment in rational and critical thinking has morphed into form of Nihilism and in turn has evolved into hedonism now where everything is about self pleasure and comfort. The measure of moral standard now is based on self truth and feelings and about the truth of the 'Thing' itself.
Metaphysically when God or a spiritual basis for morality is rejected then something has to fill that void. Due to the success of science and tech and the belief in self or (humanism) as the truth and leads to the idea that 'Self' (humans) are the god and this has led to the belief that humans can almost de anything. There is no nature and humans can redefine everything, not just marriage but humans themselves.
Hence the emergence of gender and transgender ideology, the idea that we can fix the world through science and can remodel society through social engineering such as Marxism. When religion is rejected the political becomes all important to much so.
Social commentator Dr. Camille Paglia has an interesting take on this progression in western culture. She believes that historically that androgyny is a symptom of a culture in decline and at the end of their rein. The traditional and clear forms like in sex and gender lose their distinction and become fluid. This is seen especially in art where the strong masculine art like sculptures are replaced with more feminine types.
Being an atheist she thinks that religion plays an important role in grounding and stabilizing culture throughout the ages but when this is rejected inevitably we become deluded 'Self' as the only power and truth which inevitably rejects any objective truth because all is relative .
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Hans Blaster
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Still haven't told me what "The West" is. Let's see if things go any better for "The Fall".
Families are a part of society. I'm not married, but I still have a family. Not sure how that is destablizing society. Do I need to go get a church approved wife so that society doesn't collapse?
What "cultural identity"? Culture evolves and it always has. How does one measure the "general decline" of cultural identity?
Do you mean the expansion of the definition of marriage? The old definition still works for anyone it describes. (And we *should* question our moral standards, otherwise what is the point of having them? Just taking prior generations on their word for moral standards retards the evolution of society.)
Yeah science! I'd rather we not live in the dark ages.
Abortion has been around longer than Christianity, or "The West". Don't think it is the cause of the collapse of either.
You mean that they now have a choice? How barbaric.
How? Anyone who wants to TM can still TM. Families still exist, and not just as an idea.
Well that was a lot of fancy words. Usually when people "connect the dots" they try to include *some* plausible connection. This was certainly a "creative" take.
The age of enlightenment ended about 200 years ago. Post-modernism is about 50 years old. A few periods happened in between. (For starters: Modernism)
Critical thinking is still critical thinking. It did not evolve into nihilism or hedonism, neither of which is even in the same neighborhood as critical thinking.
Huh?
Does it? Don't feel any void from the removal of my spiritual basis for anything. Perhaps it is because i don't care about "metaphysical." (YMMV)
Have you met humans? Only a fool would think humans are "god-like".
Again: Huh? Don't know who is doing this non-sensical thing.
What are "3 things that don't have anything to do with each other", Alex? (Oh, this isn't "Jeopardy(TM)", sorry.)
(Plus, can you cite anything from K. Marx that any of these modern things you are talking about are his ideas?)
There are many better things to do with your time after rejecting religion. Politics is just one of many.
Androgyny is the problem now? Are you aware that 80s fashions are no longer fashionable? (Is Camille aware?)
The problem with this notion is that sex and gender aren't quite as distinct and binary as you'd like to think.
What? The classical Western sculpture with its focus on the male, nude form was a bit too homoerotic for my taste.
I'm not sure how any of that could arise from "being an atheist". Did you mean "Despite being an atheist" because that would make more sense as a sentence. (Not her idea. That can't be fixed.)
Must be an older video as JP doesn't looked like he spent the last week in a shallow grave. (That man is falling apart lately.)
So I went through all that, and just got the same-old-same-old of this thread -- The ill-defined West (though as far as I can tell most posters here are using "places that have been traditionally Christian dominated" as their definition) is in decline because of moral decay brought about by a lack of Christianity amongst its people and a new age of sexual depravity. It makes me recall the laments that traditional families and sexual morality had collapse and a return to traditional family values was needed by one Caesar Augustus (a/k/a Octavian). Complaining about the moral decay of society is one of the oldest and most unchanging things about society it would seem.
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stevevw
inquisitive
lol. No mainly in sculptures and paintings.
ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of a Greek votive relief dated to the fourth century BCE from the site of Karystos. Dionysos is the figure in the middle, who is now shown beardless, with long hair, and a more feminine appearance.
ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of a Roman marble head of Dionysos dated to the second century CE, depicting him as an androgynous youth
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Bradskii
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Here's an idea. If the present cataclysmic collapse of society is as bad as you think it is then what we need is some point in history where we can compare the situation now and then. And see how it compares.
Anytime you're ready...
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ViaCrucis
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Alexander's empire fell because he died and his generals decided to fight amongst themselves. In the East the subjugated peoples eventually took back control of their lands, i.e. the Parthians made a new Persian Empire. In the Greek West, the Romans conquered the Greeks, turning the Greek West into the Roman East. Under the conquests of the Triumverate.
The Western Roman Empire fell because
1) The seat of Roman power was moved from Rome to Constantinople by Constantine, largely to be closer to Persia, the main rival of Roman power.
2) The Germanic Migrations brought new peoples to the edges of the Roman Empire, and a combination of Roman promises and the breaking of those promises to Germanic tribes led to those tribes turning and fighting against Rome. So a Visigoth leader by the name of Alaric sacked Rome in 410 AD, and later Odacer, of the Ostrogoths conquered the Italian peninusla and proclaimed himself Rex, with Romulus Augustus (the last Western Emperor) ending up living the rest of their lives in Ravenna while Odacer was in charge. The Visigoths took Gaul and Hispania, while the Vandals took North Africa. Leaving only the Eastern half of the Roman Empire under Constantinople (where the real power of the Empire was anyway).
The Eastern Roman Empire didn't fall until about a thousand years later, when in 1453 the Ottoman Empire under Mehmet II used gunpowder canons to break through the walls of Constantinople and took the city, proclaiming himself Qayser-i Rum, "Caesar of the Romans". However the Eastern Roman Empire (aka the "Byzantine" Empire) did experience an interuption when during the Fourth Crusade the crusaders chose to attack Constantinople because they weren't getting paid (their destination was supposed to be to Egypt) which led to the establishment of several Latin States, though two successor Roman states in Anatolia still remained, those of Nicea and Trebizond, with Nicea taking back Constantinople and restoring the Empire--but it would never fully recover, leaving it weakened when the Ottomans came in.
Both in East and West, the Roman Empire was a thoroughly Christian state (one may disagree with the union of political power with the Church, I do, but regardless, it was still officially Christian). Of course, so were the various Germanic tribes that conquered the Western Empire, though some followed Arianism until their conversion to orthodox Christianity (e.g. the Visigoths).
I'm not sure where you're getting the ideas about the downfall of the Greek or Roman ancient superpowers, but the things I outlined above are what happened historically.
-CryptoLutheran
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stevevw
inquisitive
I am not sure that would work. I have debated people about comparing periods and it becomes a competition about opposing stats which are often used out of context. I think we only have to look at what is going on now to realize we are in a bad state of affairs and heading for bigger problems in the West. Many commentators and even professionals say the same.
So I think the evidence is within this generation and the trends predicted for the future. Its more a meta view than seeing things from specific historical settings which hade different context. An overall view for example shows that the 20th century has been the bloodiest.
But otherwise things go in cycles so we can find periods in the past which seem just as bad and then there are periods of revival, revolution aned change. That's why stats don't always work.
We also gain new knowledge which can change our understanding of the past where we were ignorant. I think the best way is to compare like with like such as what has happened within the same generation or two. I think we are the result of our past history so are in a unique position of having gathered technology and knowledge which can and has made a tremendous difference compared to the past but also can be our downfall.
Certainly there is evidence today that we are on a downward trend morally and politically which has caused problems for society and the West in general and even globally. As some have mentioned the breakdown of the family is a big one where an increasing problem has occurred over the last 50 years.
Millennials blame the Baby boomers for the greed of materialism which has led to climate change. The Global financial crisis is another big issue which is mainly caused by the West. Even Democracy itself is being questioned. Then there is the global problem of refugees and terrorism. The suicide rate is up tremendously and many people are unhappy in a world that promised a utopia.
Resources are fast running out as 3rd world nations become more like the West due to the spread of capitalism and globalization by the West. Yet at the same time Western Nations are seeing more and more people struggling beneath the poverty line.
Some of these issues may have happened in the past but it seems there is a perfect storm brewing where we are crossing the threshold where somethings gotta give.
These problems are well acknowledge by professionals and many agree that we are at a threshold tipping point like no other in our history. Up until recently God has been a part of mainstream life in the West. So for the first time in our history we are becoming Godless as a nation or Empire. It seems to me a lot the issues we are facing has coincided with the rejection of God and a move towards atheism and the secular State has become god.
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Matt5
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The book called The Fourth Turning predicted our current mess, and it did it in the mid-90s. The book doesn't say what will happen but it will be something big, like a revolutionary war, civil war or big war. You can see a summary of the book in the following 10-minute video:
We Are In A "FOURTH TURNING," What Does That Mean? - YouTube
Imagine you live in a small village in a forest. It's been a hundred years since the last big fire. A few people are now warning about the threat of a big fire. But the forest looks as it always has since you can remember. Where is this threat? Everything is as it has always been.
"Stability is destabilizing." - Hyman Minsky
It turns out that about 60 to 80 years after the last big crisis America experiences another big one. The first sign that something was wrong was on 9/11/2001. The second sign was the 2008 financial crisis. The third sign was COVID-19. The fourth sign is the Russia-Ukraine war. This war leads to World War 3 within a couple of years.
What is a horse in the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse?
If you assume it's some kind of shock or birth pain, then what do you get?
The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
1. 1945 - America drops atomic bomb on Japan. Nuclear age begins. The end-time begins.
2. 2001 - 9/11. The rise of Islam and the Sword of Islam. Islam (Iran) is behind all the other horses and seals.
3. 2023? - Israel nukes its neighbors. Isaiah 17. Iran is behind this war.
4. 2024? - Russia and China nuke America in retaliation for #3. Isaiah 18. Iran is indirectly behind this from #3.
In my War Log blog, I just list links to articles showing how America is headed for war. It includes the risk of war with Russia and China, and also the risk of war involving Israel with an eye toward #3 above.
We Are In A "FOURTH TURNING," What Does That Mean? - YouTube
Imagine you live in a small village in a forest. It's been a hundred years since the last big fire. A few people are now warning about the threat of a big fire. But the forest looks as it always has since you can remember. Where is this threat? Everything is as it has always been.
"Stability is destabilizing." - Hyman Minsky
It turns out that about 60 to 80 years after the last big crisis America experiences another big one. The first sign that something was wrong was on 9/11/2001. The second sign was the 2008 financial crisis. The third sign was COVID-19. The fourth sign is the Russia-Ukraine war. This war leads to World War 3 within a couple of years.
What is a horse in the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse?
If you assume it's some kind of shock or birth pain, then what do you get?
The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
1. 1945 - America drops atomic bomb on Japan. Nuclear age begins. The end-time begins.
2. 2001 - 9/11. The rise of Islam and the Sword of Islam. Islam (Iran) is behind all the other horses and seals.
3. 2023? - Israel nukes its neighbors. Isaiah 17. Iran is behind this war.
4. 2024? - Russia and China nuke America in retaliation for #3. Isaiah 18. Iran is indirectly behind this from #3.
In my War Log blog, I just list links to articles showing how America is headed for war. It includes the risk of war with Russia and China, and also the risk of war involving Israel with an eye toward #3 above.
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Bradskii
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That's simply not good enough. If you think the West is falling then you must have some examples that you have that have brought you to this conclusion. If it's falling then it must be falling from some position. We must be in a worse position now than we were.
Pick any time you like from the very dawn of civilisation to today as an example of how we have fallen.
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timothyu
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Yes but the system remains as it always has, Gain at the expense of others. What has changed is more on a ethical level where greed has increased along with violence associated with the results of greed, both in those seeking something for themselves, but more so, those who create a system where have nots are increasing as opportunity for the gravy is no longer more evenly distributed among all people..
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stevevw
inquisitive
How is the dawn of civilization related to the West. Like I said we would have to look at recent times. Take the family breakdowns is one example as mentioned in the OP. We can see a deterioration in the family and the many problems associated with this. The instability of the family has progressively got worse over the last 60 years or so.
Research shows that a family consisting of a mother, father and children in a long term monogamous relationship provides many health benefits as well as better for child rearing and financial stability. So if past family makeups were more traditional and now they can consist of any makeup then this is good evidence that things have deteriorated for the family in the West who have promoted ideas that undermine the traditional families which happen to be mostly western nations.
You only have to compare moral norms of a generation or two back to see the change. Abortion, homosexuality, pedophilia, casual sex and inappropriate contentography were not as prevalent. Children showed respect and now they put a finger up to parents, teachers and authority. Its no coincident that youth represent the highest percentage of atheism today.
I could go on but I know it will make no difference because people then claim these things have always happened and it becomes a competition about stats.
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Hans Blaster
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He was giving you a chance to find evidence in support of your supposition (about moral decline) from any era. It was quite generous of him.
In what ways are families more unstable? Do specify.
Two parent families are more stable than one parent families, can give better support to children, and have more stable incomes. Shocking! Got anything that ISN'T obvious?
"Any makeup" is more broad than just single parent families. Got any emperical evidence that familes lead by two women or by two men are demonstrably bad for children? What about a family that consists of a divorced woman, her mother and her children? Can you show those are bad with data?
Not as prevalent, or not as hidden?
And here we go, the real reason for the whole topic. It turns out "The West" was just "Christendom" the lands where Christianity is, has been, or "should be" established. The whole decline of the west bit and the decline of morality is just the failure of christians to be dominant in society and force christianity on the youth by force of law and social coercion. As for the higher percentage of youth who are non-religious or non-believers that's just the cumulative effect of a slow erosion of your religion over the generations in our society. Today's kids have non-Christian classmates even non-believing ones. I didn't have that that exposure. (Maybe that's why it took me until about 30 to leave.)
Please don't. We know you were never going to discuss data.
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stevevw
inquisitive
But we are talking about the West. That only emerged around 1300's onwards particularly with the Reformation and Enlightenment. I think it is fair to say that our morals between then and now have declined.
I am surprised you even ask that question or want evidence. I thought it was obvious to most. Take single parent families. Studies show kids' from single parent families suffer a range of problems compared to two parent families including lower development, financial hardship, poor academic results, crime, addiction and mental illness. This has a knock on effect for society.
That is without going more specific issues supporting traditional norms such as how monogamous marriage and biological parents are more conducive to stable and more healthier society's and nations.
Well if its so obvious then why protest that there is no evidence of the West falling. But the point isn't just about finances and practical support is it. Its about the moral standard that two parents especially biological parents have and can offer compared to the ideology being pushed by modern society that family makeup doesn't matter, that there is no standard for family makeup.
For example if 'Fathers' and/or 'Mothers' make a difference to a child's wellbeing then a child who lives in a single parent household is missing vital input and is at higher risk of developing problems. So the more we move away from the Traditional standard the more problems we will have which is exactly what we see.
I am not saying that different family makeups are completely bad. It is more like varying degrees of what is best but with the traditional setup which meets its potential being the best. I find that getting into arguments about stats doesn't address the issues at hand. I can find you plenty of direct and indirect evidence. You could probably fined contradictory evidence.
So let me ask you a simple question. Do you think the father or mother plays a unique and different role in a childes development.
Mostly not as prevalent. Something like what we see today may have happened in the past. But it was either a small % or in the context of the past people did not have the same knowledge and awareness as we do today. You know where a past societies at through their literature and culture. We can see the naivety and a greater innocence in their discourse compared to today.
Some things were hidden but the prevalence was still less than today. In fact what was hidden in the past as immoral is not in the open as being morally ok in some ways. inappropriate content infiltrates all aspects of society. People were more ashamed to indulge in such things.
The question is where is the line between moral and immoral. That is the big difference between the past and today. Today there is no line. We have lost our moral compass.
No the failure of the church was to live their Christianity as an example. Just as they did from the time of Christ. Christianity grew to become the greatest religion in a short time and influenced the Roman Empire to become Christian the very Empire that persecuted Christianity. It was later that the Church overstepped their mark and became more secularized and tried to enforce people. Then some began to rebel and the State stepped in. Christianity is about setting the example and standard for society which can be done without forcing people.
Its a combination of Christianity not getting the right message through and the secular State stepping in and offering an alternative. Either way the fact that young people have no friends or Christianity in the school system any longer shows that it used to be more prevalent and did make a difference to the behavior and wellbeing of young people.
It would have been ok if they replaced Christianity with some other moral standard but that hasn't happened. Young people don't have any moral basis and all is relative. But that ideology was supplanted years ago. So there has also been a concerted effort by certain groups with agendas and the State that has influenced young people away from the Church with promises of an alternative ideal.
lol, you don't know me very well then. I am the king of research and stats. If you look at some of my past posts they are walls of stats. That is how I learnt that stats don't achieve much when a person already believes the opposite.
I think common sense tells us that things are morally worse today, we don't need stats if we are honest. Just picture some of the things youth do today and whether they did them in the past. Or if they did was it as prevalent. Like say assaulting, and murdering teachers. Did it happen in the past and if so was it as prevalent as today.
Something is very wrong when young people act like that. You don't even need to do any comparisons to acknowledge that a society where these things happen is broken and needs fixing. The idea of claiming that things have always been bad is to minimize the reality of the problems of today as though they are just part of life. That is part of todays ideology, the same ideology that youth believe in of cancelling out any truth with relativity.
Rather than get into stats here is a meta analysis of how Governments have destroyed societies and Empires through undermining social norms and morals.
Moral failings of leaders collapsed even the best societies, study finds
The anthropology study took a deep dive into 30 pre-modern societies and found that even those that had “good” governments were not immune to catastrophic demise. In fact, societies where the government provided goods and services and prevented drastic inequalities of wealth and power, tended to fall apart even more dramatically than those who had despots. One commonality in the destruction of such societies – the failings of leaders who gravely weakened them by tearing apart societal ideals and morals.
Moral failings of leaders collapsed even the best societies, study finds
Researchers found a common element in the destruction of even the most powerful empires.
bigthink.com
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stevevw
inquisitive
Yes and I think that is what has been happening where mainly Western State powers and powerful business people are building towards total control with a unified system of control. Its already happening in fact and people are none the wiser. At the same time we have fringe groups becoming more radical who want to impose their ideologies as a counter. We live in unpredictable and unstable times economically, socially and morally.
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stevevw
inquisitive
I look at it this way. The Church had their time and messed up. Tried to impose their worldly ideas onto society rather than set the example and be there for the people. They failed and the Kings and State took control. Now they are messing up just the same. Why is that so hard to acknowledge. I think the majority of people know this by the fact that they are completely disillusioned and angry at the State and there is a lot of unrest in society.
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Bradskii
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Oh yes, we do. If you say 'the west' is falling then we need some evidence. So yet again, pick literally any period prior to today so I we can compare them. I'm not the slightest bit interested in what you personally think 'common sense' tells us. Because common sense tells me that your complaint that morals are declining is nothing more than you saying things aren't turning out the way you'd like.
So less personal opinion if you please and more substance.
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Bradskii
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So what on earth are you doing linking articles that discuss 'pre modern' societies such as the Ming Dynasty and the Murghal Empire?
Pick a lane and stick to it.The anthropology study took a deep dive into 30 pre-modern societies and found that even those that had “good” governments were not immune to catastrophic demise. In fact, societies where the government provided goods and services and prevented drastic inequalities of wealth and power, tended to fall apart even more dramatically than those who had despots. One commonality in the destruction of such societies – the failings of leaders who gravely weakened them by tearing apart societal ideals and morals.
Moral failings of leaders collapsed even the best societies, study finds
Researchers found a common element in the destruction of even the most powerful empires.
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