Sanctification & Calvinism

Tranquil Bondservant

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God alone causes someone to be born again - but before that happens the person must choose the gospel which is a synergistic work - with the God drawing and convicting the person - enabling their choice and the person choosing to respond.
Something that's hard to get across is the idea of non-meritorious works. So that believing in Christ itself isn't considered a work, which is the thing that's often thrown back at you with the accompanying claims of semi-Pelagianism. If somebody knocked on your door and put a gift on the ground for you, nobody in their right mind would claim any kind of credit for picking up the gift. I don't mean for this thread to turn into me complaining about Calvinism as I was genuinely curious if there was an answer and if there is a solid one then I'm fine with accepting like I said.

The problem with the assurance of salvation in classic 3 and 5 point Calvinism is that you get 100% of your assurance today - "retro-deleted" if 10 years from now - you fail to persevere. In that case - no matter your strong claims to assurance today - it all goes up in smoke when 10 years from today you fail. Which means you were never saved to start with so you could not have had any assurance at all no matter all your claims to the contrary and even the one who claims it today will confess that truth when he/she sees their failure 10 years from today.

The Arminian can know for certain he/she is saved today within the Arminian logical framework - .- but can't know today - that he will still be saved 10 years from today (given that same framework).

However the 3 and 5 point Calvinist cannot logically know even that much given the 3 and 5 point Calvinist logical framework - all they can do is say "well I know that I know that I know -- no matter that the logical framework for 3 and 5 point Calvinism does not provide for that certainty".
How I view assurance now is that continual willful sin means that you will end up rejecting God for the world and that He always remains faithful (2 Timothy 2:13). The ironic thing is that I have more assurance now than I did as a Calvinist. On top of that is that the warnings for willful sin in scripture actually have weight now rather than me essentially being an actor in a play reading my lines. I still don't believe in a free will but I believe in real choice and I feel like it makes all the difference in the world.
 
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BobRyan

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I never said it didn't, but it clearly says that God is the one at work in us to work out our salvation.

Please read this in light of Philippians 2:12-13.
1 Cor 9 shows the human that is working, Phil 2 shows God working

Which is why when the human sins during the process of life -- ongoing sanctification - it is not "God sinning"
 
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Jonaitis

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1 Cor 9 shows the human that is working, Phil 2 shows God working

Which is why when the human sins during the process of life -- ongoing sanctification - it is not "God sinning"
"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."
- Ezekiel 36:26-27

"I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts."
- Jeremiah 31:33

There is no cooperation with God in sanctification, for it is God who works and wills in us to participate in it.

"This sanctification is throughout the whole man, yet imperfect in this life; there abides still some remnants of corruption in every part, wherefrom arises a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. In which war, although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome; and so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, pressing after an heavenly life, in evangelical obedience to all the commands which Christ as Head and King, in his Word has prescribed to them."
- LBCF 13:2-3

Sanctification is inevitable, no matter theoretically the man may resist.
 
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BobRyan

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Something that's hard to get across is the idea of non-meritorious works. So that believing in Christ itself isn't considered a work, which is the thing that's often thrown back at you with the accompanying claims of semi-Pelagianism. If somebody knocked on your door and put a gift on the ground for you, nobody in their right mind would claim any kind of credit for picking up the gift.
The person who repents and is born again - then is baptized is never said to be "earning their salvation" even by Calvinists. The salvation by works complaints usually come in only after that when the person says he wants to keep the 4th commandment in its unedited form -- where as if he had said he wanted to keep it in its bent/edited form repointed to week-day-1 then C.H.Spurgeon would be ok with it , so also the Baptist Confession of Faith Sectn 19 and 21 would be ok with it and so also the Westminster Confession of Faith Sectn 19 would be ok with it.
I don't mean for this thread to turn into me complaining about Calvinism as I was genuinely curious if there was an answer and if there is a solid one then I'm fine with accepting like I said.


How I view assurance now is that continual willful sin means that you will end up rejecting God for the world and that He always remains faithful (2 Timothy 2:13). The ironic thing is that I have more assurance now than I did as a Calvinist. On top of that is that the warnings for willful sin in scripture actually have weight now rather than me essentially being an actor in a play reading my lines.
Actually we can have very strong assurance now as per Romans 8:13-16 where the "Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God" . Instead of me "convincing myself" , I can enter a time of worship, confession and prayer claiming the promises of God and get that 100% assurance of my standing today - from God Himself. But as you point out - if I embrace compromise then I am also distancing myself from that source of assurance. It does not mean every time you sin you are lost - it only means that this is not the way that God wants you to do it. 1 Cor 10 - God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able. Still we have 1 John 2|;1 "These things I write that you sin NOT - but if anyone sins we HAVE and Advocate with the Father"
 
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Tranquil Bondservant

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What does the Scriptures say?

It is better to say that we 'participate' in sanctification, but not 'co-operate' with God in it.
Brother I needn't quote all of the warnings in scripture that refute the idea of a monergistic interpretation. Monergistic sanctification renders us actors in a play reading our lines (not even that, as God in this systematic is the being reading the lines). The warnings become something we hear, not truly heed. For if we do not have real choice and all is brought about in spite of us, then of what use is a warning? If hearing the warning and responding is the means by which God brings it about, the means is still going to be brought to pass and you will still read your lines in the play irregardless of what occurs. If you cannot escape the sovereign deterministic decree in any way shape or form, then of what use is the warning?
 
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BobRyan

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"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."
- Ezekiel 36:26-27

"I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts."
- Jeremiah 31:33
Indeed the work of God in the born again experience and in sanctification but 1 Cor 9 is still showing the work of the person -- even so.


Hence Rom 11 "You stand only by our faith, do not be arrogant - but FEAR for if He did not spare them - He will not spare you either"
There is no cooperation with God in sanctification,
"I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it" 1 Cor 9. That is pure synergism. Your solution to that so far is in not looking at it??

Or are you saying that in the miracles God is doing - no one helps Him do miracles?. I agree with that part.
for it is God who works and wills in us to participate in it.

"This sanctification is throughout the whole man, yet imperfect in this life; there abides still some remnants of corruption in every part, wherefrom arises a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. In which war, although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome; and so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, pressing after an heavenly life
Who does the "pressing"? is that a choice? a work? effort "I Buffet my body and make it my slave" 1 Cor 9.

Phil 3:
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them mere rubbish, so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 if somehow I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already grasped it all or have already become perfect, but I press on if I may also take hold of that for which I was even taken hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not regard myself as having taken hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore, all who are mature, let’s have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that to you as well; 16 however, let’s keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

That is not a case where Paul is instructing the Holy Spirit - rather he is talking about his own choice and determination as a model for his readers.
 
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BobRyan

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Brother I needn't quote all of the warnings in scripture that refute the idea of a monergistic interpretation. Monergistic sanctification renders us actors in a play reading our lines (not even that, as God in this systematic is the being reading the lines).
More like robots in a play. preprogrammed making no actual choices of their own.
 
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Jonaitis

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Brother I needn't quote all of the warnings in scripture that refute the idea of a monergistic interpretation. Monergistic sanctification renders us actors in a play reading our lines (not even that, as God in this systematic is the being reading the lines). The warnings become something we hear, not truly heed. For if we do not have real choice and all is brought about in spite of us, then of what use is a warning? If hearing the warning and responding is the means by which God brings it about, the means is still going to be brought to pass and you will still read your lines in the play irregardless of what occurs. If you cannot escape the sovereign deterministic decree in any way shape or form, then of what use is the warning?
Well, that's not what monergism actually teaches. We do not deny or remove the agency of volition, nor human responsibility. What we are essentially saying is that God changes the disposition of our hearts so that we may be willing to obey him. If you have ever fallen in love before, you would know what I am talking about. That change brings about a reformation of thought and affection toward a different aim. God must bring us out of love with the world and sin, not only in conversion, but throughout our salvation, into falling more in love with him and his righteousness. We are too weak to seek him, let alone follow. We must have a change of heart, and this change doesn't stop at regeneration. God is continually working in us to set us more apart and drawing us closer to him. He is the Great Lover who wins our hearts, and draws us deeper into his love. There is nothing "robotic" about that, but rather divinely "romantic."
 
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BobRyan

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Well, that's not what monergism actually teaches. We do not deny or remove the agency of volition, nor human responsibility. What we are essentially saying is that God changes the disposition of our hearts so that we may be willing to obey him.
Both models say that about God prompting drawing and enabling.

Monergism specifically speaks to what we are not doing. It deleted the human side to get to "Mono".
If you have ever fallen in love before, you would know what I am talking about.
By definition that is a two-party system. Synergism.
God must bring us out of love with the world and sin, not only in conversion, but throughout our salvation, into falling more in love with him
"more and more" speaks of gradual change and if God is the only one acting that God is gradually changing.
If the human agent is cooperating in that change - then it is the human that is changing over time. Less and less like the world - and more and more like God.

you cannot change your finger to be more and more like your finger.
 
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Tranquil Bondservant

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Well, that's not what monergism actually teaches. We do not deny or remove the agency of volition, nor human responsibility. What we are essentially saying is that God changes the disposition of our hearts so that we may be willing to obey him. If you have ever fallen in love before, you would know what I am talking about. That change brings about a reformation of thought and affection toward a different aim. God must bring us out of love with the world and sin, not only in conversion, but throughout our salvation, into falling more in love with him and his righteousness. We are too weak to seek him, let alone follow. We must have a change of heart, and this change doesn't stop at regeneration. God is continually working in us to set us more apart and drawing us closer to him. He is the Great Lover who wins our hearts, and draws us deeper into his love. There is nothing "robotic" about that, but rather divinely "romantic."
It's not winning our hearts though as He sovereignly decreed we would be won before the foundation of the earth. Winning someone's heart requires real choice. You're right that Monergism on it's own doesn't teach that, but it's monergism combined with the divine deterministic decree that does. The agency is removed through the decree. Hence the confusion when it comes to participation.
 
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Jonaitis

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Both models say that about God prompting drawing and enabling.

Monergism specifically speaks to what we are not doing. It deleted the human side to get to "Mono".

By definition that is a two-party system. Synergism.

"more and more" speaks of gradual change and if God is the only one acting that God is gradually changing.
If the human agent is cooperating in that change - then it is the human that is changing over time. Less and less like the world - and more and more like God.

you cannot change your finger to be more and more like your finger.
Nay, monergistic sanctification teaches that God is continually at work in us to bring us closer to himself. There is no 'deletion' of the human side, that's a gross misinterpretation of the doctrine. Synergism teaches that, where God does his part, man fills in the rest by his enabling - making God a part-time worker in our salvation. God does not simply "enable" us, but is the force in us to work and to will.
 
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Jonaitis

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It's not winning our hearts though as He sovereignly decreed we would be won before the foundation of the earth. Winning someone's heart requires real choice. You're right that Monergism on it's own doesn't teach that, but it's monergism combined with the divine deterministic decree that does. The agency is removed through the decree. Hence the confusion when it comes to participation.
So your problem lies more with God's eternal decree. Where do you stand on it?

I disagree that agency is removed. I am a compatibilist, as most Calvinists are. What you are describing sounds more like hyper-Calvinism.
 
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Tranquil Bondservant

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So your problem lies more with God's eternal decree. Where do you stand on it?

I disagree that agency is removed. I am a compatibilist, as most Calvinists are. What you are describing sounds more like hyper-Calvinism.
Compatibilism is still determinism, it doesn't remove any of it's problems. The choices still don't exist, they just seem like they do. But yeah my problem is with the eternal decree:
If that includes God initiating/decreeing temptation then it would go against the scripture in James 1:13-15. It would have God decreeing people to be dragged away by their vices as apposed to it being "their own evil desire". I understand the notion of God using agents to fulfill their own desires and then in turn being glorified by it, you can't read Job without believing that. But the decree has God initiating both the temptation and the carrying out of the sin itself. Whereas a synergistic view has the being who had the evil desire being held responsible.

You would have to say that God is responsible for decreeing the temptation and sin, as apposed to an evil agent in rebellion doing so.
Another reason is that I believe that real choice exists (Edit for clarification: I believe it exists because of scriptural reasons). Because I think that a) a plain reading of scripture without any knowledge of doctrine will not have you coming away with any kind of determinism (Deut 30:19, Joshua 24:15, Acts 17:30 & the origin of sin within the systematic) & b) because of verses like 2 Peter 2:1 which states people can deny the master that bought them. How under the eternal decree is it possible to deny the master that bought you without Him determining it to be the case? Calvinism changes the meaning of apostacy from forsaking that which you had, to forsaking something you never truly had. Denying a master who was never your master but somehow bought you.

I'm not denying The Lord's sovereignty to do as He pleases (like harden hearts, appoint people & etc), it's just that sovereignty =/= decreeing everything before the foundations of the world. It can equal that but it doesn't necessarily follow.
 
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fhansen

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Exactly! That is the flaw in monergistic sanctification and is one of the reasons why R.C.Sproul and J.I. Packer likely reject that Monergism for Sanctification
And yet would those two figures most likely deny that sanctification is necessary for salvation, being a more or less side-benefit of salvation instead?
 
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BobRyan

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And yet would those two figures most likely deny that sanctification is necessary for salvation, being a more or less side-benefit of salvation instead?
I don't think they would say that. Calvinist (at least the 3 and 5 point group) are pretty focused on the idea of perseverance and obedience
 
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Clare73

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J.I. Packer and R.C. Sproul taught that sanctification is “synergistic.” That is , they accept that an exercise of the will is needed to cooperate in Sanctification. As you point out - this is also true in Salvation , in Justification in the entire walk of faith.

An "exercise of the will" is not a work (performance), while the obedience in the Holy Spirit of the Christian life is works, which lead to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

God alone causes someone to be born again - but before that happens the person must choose the gospel which is a synergistic work - with God drawing and convicting the person - enabling their choice and the person choosing to respond.

However, Jesus teaches that before that happens man is blind and unable to even see the things of God (Jn 3:3-5), so how does he choose them?
Likewise, NT apostolic teaching is that unregenerate (without the Holy Spirit), not born-again man does not accept the things of God because they are foolishness to him (1 Co 2:14), so how does he choose them?

There is no choosing by the unregenerate of anything spiritual, because they do not have the Holy Spirit by which to see them.
 
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BobRyan

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However, Jesus teaches that before that happens man is blind and unable to see the things of God (Jn 3:3-5)
No doubt.

To counter that "God draws all mankind unto Him " John 12:32 and even Calvinists admit that the drawing of God enables all the choice to accept the Gospel that depravity disables

He draws "all" and "He convicts the WORLD of sin" John 16..
 
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Clare73

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No doubt.

To counter that "God draws all mankind unto Him " John 12:32 and even Calvinists admit that the drawing of God enables all the choice to accept the Gospel that depravity disables

Where does Calvin present such?
 
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BobRyan

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Where does Calvin present such?
Are you asking where it is that Calvinist's claim that the supernatural drawing of God in John 6 - enables choice to accept the Gospel???
or are you asking of John Calvin was Calvinist?


 
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Clare73

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Are you asking where it is that Calvinist's claim that the supernatural drawing of God in John 6 - enables choice to accept the Gospel???
or are you asking of John Calvin was Calvinist?


Thanks. . .I am asking where.

"Gift" here, and in the NT, is in the sense of "not earned," it is not in the sense of "freedom to accept or reject."


And I understand "all" when used in relation to salvation, etc. to mean Gentiles as well as Jews, not to every man on earth.

Calvin did not understand "all" to always mean every person.
 
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