The Holy One and Daniel, also regarding Michael and Gabriel?

Does Daniel encounter the Holy One with the greats Michael and Gabriel? This is in that Old Testament, Daniel.

Some scholars think Michael is a name for the Holy One, but most don't agree.

Daniel encounters 4 figures, he sees an Holy One on a throne of fire and mentions the people of the Holy Ones.

rocknanchor said:

News to me. Esp., when he spoke of a clear distinction, "His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed." (Dan 7!4).

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Can you clarify that verse rocknanchor?

ItsAdventageous said:

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There are respected human names, but they are not authorities.

I asked the Wesleyans about this before and they explained that John Wesley and they themselves didn't and do not think Jesus and Michael are the same character.

I was Roman Catholic until I was 25, and they definitely don't think Jesus and Michael are the same character. I am pretty sure the Lutherans do not either. It's only the Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses who seem them as the one entity.

There are no angels that were not created. Only after there became multitudes are there needs for messengers.

God was face to face alone and self existent.

Michael means "Who is like God?" So people may mistake him for God the Son.

The fullness of the Godhead may have once dwelt bodily or in the spirit of the angel of the LORD. We do not know which angel that was, and what became of him.

We may not worship Michael, yet Jesus accepted worship.

Jesus gained the title Morning Star after His victory over Lucifer, which means morning star. In His glorified state Jesus in Revelation is called Morning Star. But He is not the angel.

I am from my OP interested in the Holy One. And there are the Holy Ones, so the angels cry holy, holy holy, three times. In the Gospel Jesus is called the Holy One.

ItsAdventageous said:

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As I said, which you only quoted half of, there is no one for the messages to go to, until creation. The three self existed, and none others. No angels. The Spirit knew what was in the mind of the Father as a human spirit knows what is in the mind of a man. 1 Corinthians 2:11

Angels are translated from the word messenger, but the Holy Spirit is not a mere messenger, as from Hebrews 1, they are never of the status to be called sons, but are only servants.

Paul4JC said:

Some versions say the watcher is the holy one: Daniel 4 :: King James Version (KJV) also verse 23 while others say a watcher and a holy one, which I would disagree with. The watcher is the holy one.

Michael does appear later in Daniel, but he's not called a watcher, but a chief prince Daniel 10 :: New International Version (NIV). A chief prince, and by all means great and mighty, yet not a king as is Christ. Later in Jude Michael is identified as an archangel. Daniel 10 :: New International Version (NIV)

Cherubim are not seraphim and so on. There are so many angel categories that we don't know. The watcher class is mentioned in 1 Enoch in much detail


What reformation? They were wrong about so many things.

Christ does appear in the OT as the angel of YHWH. The Preincarnate Christ is The Angel of the Lord but this is not to be confused with the archangel Michael.

"Attesting even more as to the identity of the angel of the Lord, not only as YHWH, but as the preincarnate Christ, is the response the angel of the Lord gave after Manoah had asked of His name in verse 17: “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful [Heb. piliy/paliy]” (v. 18). In Isaiah 9:6, the name of the coming Messiah will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father [or father/possessor of eternity], Prince of Peace.”

The Hebrew term translated “Wonderful” (pele) is from the same root word (both from pala) as in Judges 13:18: “seeing it is wonderful.” No created angel can claim this name of Himself. This claim is certainly consistent to the many claims Jesus made and titles ascribed to Him in the NT, which were claims that only YHWH made and titles ascribe to YHWH alone in the OT (e.g., “First and Last”[5]; egō eimi [“I am”][6]; “Lord of glory”[7]; “only Lord”[8]; etc.). When Manoah discovered that it was the “angel of the Lord,” he declared to his wife, “We will surly die, for we have seen God” (v. 22)—seeing that the angel of Lord was God."

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The Angel of the Lord was a great angel that does not re-appear after the incarnation. I also doubt he was Michael. He was an angel with a great presence of God in him, like a planet, and the rock was the Spirit of God, and the angel the blue atmosphere around Him. He was to be reverenced. He was present and at work during the Exodus, I think Moses saw the Father's back parts in the cleft of the rock and the angel of the Lord was another matter, possibly the Son, pre-incarnate.

I am skeptical about the book of Enoch.

Compare the translator softer focus and somewhat interpreted versions, with the literal:

Daniel 8:24 KJV then the Literal Standard Version
24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

24and his power has been mighty, and not by his own power; and he destroys wonderful things, and he has prospered, and worked, and destroyed mighty ones, and the people of the Holy Ones.

I am interested in the Holy Ones. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

And Daniel 10:21 KJV and the Literal Standard Version
21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

21but I declare to you that which is noted down in the Writing of Truth, and there is not one strengthening himself with me, concerning these, except Michael your head.”

Angels excel in strength and obedience, God does not need to obey Himself, with the exception of Jesus when incarnate, for our sake. Rather they have common infinite knowledge.

God is strength and does not strengthen Himself as Michael and Gabriel. He cannot be more strong, as He is always infinitely strong. He is infinitely holy and does not sanctify Himself. Angels may sanctify themselves, certainly we need to.

God has feet, the Earth His footstool, fingers and He drives out unclean spirits and demons with this, and His face, He expresses and fills souls and angels from His face with glories and peace... but is God's heel less holy than His face, or His finger? Does it get dirty? No, God is always infinitely holy, finger, foot, hand, face. He sources these things in Himself and does not source from somewhere else as angels and souls, who source from Him.

God is the source of strength and holiness. Michael strengthens Himself in the the Holy One.

Daniel 11:1 Literal Standard Version.
1“And I, in the first year of Darius the Mede, my standing [is] for a strengthener, and for a stronghold to him;

Says Gabriel.

Also the KJV Daniel 11:1
1Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.
God uses angels and strong messengers, who fight demonic principalities. He can't be overwhelmed by a demon and pushed back. It a matter of contention regarding God almighty, omnipotent and the time and effort it took to finally crush Satan, and that we await a second coming. But I won't go into that here. Jesus was strengthened for our sake and to accomplish much for us from within our race.

Did YHWH, and The Angel of the LORD find it hard, spending three weeks making their way down to the holy mountain for Moses? Why does Michael need to strengthen himself if he is the Holy One with and being Elohim?

Daniel mentions seeing "An Holy One" who takes a throne of fire. And refers to "the people of the Holy Ones". In Daniel twelve two figures other than Gabriel appear, one speaks to him of things to come and he seems to know a secret not to be revealed, a bit like Jesus telling the apostles that time of the second coming is hidden and the Father knows this date.

Who are these other figures by the river?

I discern Michael is not one of the Holy Ones, but is a chief prince among the angels.

In the Gospel Jesus is called the Holy One of God. My belief is that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are the Holy Ones alone. And Jesus now knows when He will return, being glorified.