Law vs Gospel

WordSword · Dec 16, 2022

The Law of Moses being given to Israel manifested the love of God to them, and eventually to the world! He chose a “people,” which could have been any nation, to establish knowledge and faith in Himself. First, He must inform man of his guilt before Him, in order that that may choose to believe in Him, love Him and follow Him. Thus it was by the Law that He showed them their wrongs (Jhn 9:41; 15:22, 24); and it was by the sacrificial ordinances that He forgave those who believed in Him.

Thus, it was obedience to the Law that men chose to perform, in order to manifest their love to God; but it was through the sacrificial ordinances that forgiveness was established. Though there was still was some disobedience from the believers, God continued to forgive, for He knew man was a sinner and in need of redemption (which came latter).

The reason why the Law could only condemn was because it required the obedience of One who is without sin to obey it, so that the sacrifice would be flawless. No other sacrifice could God receive than that of a spotless and perfect nature. The Father could have sacrificed Himself, but that would not have been the greatest sacrifice!

“Until the redemption of the purchased possession” (Eph 1:14) could take place, the Father first chose to deal with the Jews (Rom 1:16; 2:9, 10), and after the rejection of the Lord Jesus by most of them (of course He knew would be the case) He proceeded to the Gentiles, which He also knew would be rejected by most (Mat 7:13, 14). Thus, the Law directed man to the Gospel of Christ (Gal 3:24, 25), and it being fulfilled by the Lord Jesus (Jhn 19:30), the Father made redemption possible.
NC

Soyeong · Dec 16, 2022

You acknowledged that the Mosaic Law manifested the love of God to them and eventually to the world, that it establishes knowledge and faith in Himself, and shows the way to believe in Him, to love Him, and to follow Him, so the fact that it does all those things means that it does more than just condemn those who refuse to submit to it. The law itself came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so it did not require us to have perfect obedience, and it did not condemn those who obeyed it through faith. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to have faith in the Redeemer (Acts 21:20). In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting and becoming zealous for obeying it is an integral part of the Gospel message, and it is incorrect for you to contrast it with the Gospel.

WordSword · Dec 16, 2022

Soyeong said:
so the fact that it does all those things means that it does more than just condemn those who refuse to submit to it.

The Law said all were guilty, but the ones who believed in the sacrificial ordinance (e.g. Num 15:24, 25) weren't guilty.

Soyeong said:
The law itself came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so it did not require us to have perfect obedience, and it did not condemn those who obeyed it through faith.

God knew there would not be perfect obedience, because of the old man or sin nature. The idea of the Decalogue was to show they couldn't have perfect obedience, which required being sinless, hence the sacrificial ordinance to receive forgiveness instead of the condemnation of the Jews who didn't believe.

Soyeong said:
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law

Where does Scripture advocate the doing or obedience to the Law for the Christian?

Soyeong · Dec 16, 2022

WordSword said:
The Law said all were guilty, but the ones who believed in the sacrificial ordinance (e.g. Num 15:24, 25) weren't guilty.

So then you agree that then law does more than just condemn those who refuse to submit to it?

WordSword said:
God knew there would not be perfect obedience, because of the old man or sin nature. The idea of the Decalogue was to show they couldn't have perfect obedience, which required being sinless, hence the sacrificial ordinance to receive forgiveness instead of the condemnation of the Jews who didn't believe.

Nowhere does the Bible state that the idea of the Decalogue was to show that they couldn't have perfect obedience, nor does the Bible place any sort of emphasis on our need to have perfect obedience, but rather the consistent message of the prophets was the call for repentance. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we haven't had perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that there has never been a need for us to have perfect obedience. Even if someone did manage to have perfect obedience, then there would be nothing special that they earned as a wage (Romans 4:4-5)

WordSword said:
Where does Scripture advocate the doing or obedience to the Law for the Christian?

A Christian is by definition a follower of Christ. In Matthew 4:17-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). Someone can look at the law that Christ spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and decide whether or not to follow him, but someone can't follow him by refusing to follow what he taught.

WordSword · Dec 16, 2022

Soyeong said:
So then you agree that then law does more than just condemn those who refuse to submit to it?

Nowhere does the Bible state that the idea of the Decalogue was to show that they couldn't have perfect obedience

One can obey the Decalogue physically, but not spiritually. One would have to have a sinless nature, like the Lord Jesus to obey it perfectly. The idea of the Decalogue or anything God commands is that we can only find redemption in Christ. There's nothing one could do in the Law (if it were still in effect) to be right with God (Ro 3:20).

Soyeong · Dec 16, 2022

WordSword said:
One can obey the Decalogue physically, but not spiritually. One would have to have a sinless nature, like the Lord Jesus to obey it perfectly. The idea of the Decalogue or anything God commands is that we can only find redemption in Christ.

Nowhere does the Bible says that the Decalogue can be obeyed physically, but not spiritually, nowhere does the Bible say that we need to have perfect obedience to it, and nowhere does the Bible say that the idea of the Decalogue or anything God commands is that we can only find redemption in Christ.

WordSword said:
There's nothing one could do in the Law (if it were still in effect) to be right with God (Ro 3:20).

All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so they will always be in effect. The only way for laws for how to act in according with God's nature to no longer be in effect would be is God ceased to exist. We do not earn our justification as a wage by obeying God's law even through perfect obedience because it was never given as a means of doing (Romans 4:4-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law, which is why there are many verses that speak against that. Yet, Paul also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of God's law other than for the goal of earning it as a wage, such as faith.

WordSword · Dec 16, 2022

Soyeong said:
Nowhere does the Bible says that the Decalogue can be obeyed physically, but not spiritually, nowhere does the Bible say that we need to have perfect obedience to it, and nowhere does the Bible say that the idea of the Decalogue or anything God commands is that we can only find redemption in Christ.

All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so they will always be in effect. The only way for laws for how to act in according with God's nature to no longer be in effect would be is God ceased to exist. We do not earn our justification as a wage by obeying God's law even through perfect obedience because it was never given as a means of doing (Romans 4:4-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law, which is why there are many verses that speak against that. Yet, Paul also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of God's law other than for the goal of earning it as a wage, such as faith.

It's okay, but we disagree on too many issues to be able to debate.

fhansen · Dec 25, 2022

WordSword said:
The Law of Moses being given to Israel manifested the love of God to them, and eventually to the world! He chose a “people,” which could have been any nation, to establish knowledge and faith in Himself. First, He must inform man of his guilt before Him, in order that that may choose to believe in Him, love Him and follow Him. Thus it was by the Law that He showed them their wrongs (Jhn 9:41; 15:22, 24); and it was by the sacrificial ordinances that He forgave those who believed in Him.

Thus, it was obedience to the Law that men chose to perform, in order to manifest their love to God; but it was through the sacrificial ordinances that forgiveness was established. Though there was still was some disobedience from the believers, God continued to forgive, for He knew man was a sinner and in need of redemption (which came latter).

The reason why the Law could only condemn was because it required the obedience of One who is without sin to obey it, so that the sacrifice would be flawless. No other sacrifice could God receive than that of a spotless and perfect nature. The Father could have sacrificed Himself, but that would not have been the greatest sacrifice!

“Until the redemption of the purchased possession” (Eph 1:14) could take place, the Father first chose to deal with the Jews (Rom 1:16; 2:9, 10), and after the rejection of the Lord Jesus by most of them (of course He knew would be the case) He proceeded to the Gentiles, which He also knew would be rejected by most (Mat 7:13, 14). Thus, the Law directed man to the Gospel of Christ (Gal 3:24, 25), and it being fulfilled by the Lord Jesus (Jhn 19:30), the Father made redemption possible.
NC

The reason the law could only condemn is because it only tells us what righteousness “looks like” without giving us the power, the actual righteousness, that comes only via intimate union with God, the very thing that Adam effectively dismissed and the very thing Jesus came to establish when the time was ripe, as the creature is now reconciled with his Creator through Christ. Man was never made to be a sinner and yet he will sin to the extent that he’s separated from God. From and through Him righteousness begins to blossom in us of its own accord as we remain in Him and He in us.
“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.“ Phil 3:9

Man was made for communion with God.

WordSword · Dec 25, 2022

fhansen said:
The reason the law could only condemn is because it only tells us what righteousness “looks like” without giving us the power, the actual righteousness, that comes only via intimate union with God, the very thing that Adam effectively dismissed and the very thing Jesus came to establish when the time was ripe, as the creature is now reconciled with his Creator through Christ. Man was never made to be a sinner and yet he will sin to the extent that he’s separated from God. From and through Him righteousness begins to blossom in us of its own accord as we remain in Him and He in us.
“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.“ Phil 3:9

Man was made for communion with God.

True it is, that righteousness cannot come from the Law because it only condemns. "Therefore by the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight" (Rom 3:20); and man cannot have his own righteousness due to the old man's presence, thus it must be the righteousness of Christ imputed to man.

Phl 3:9 - "Not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law;" by which he means his obedience to the moral, as well as the ceremonial law; for the one was as much his own as the other, and more properly his righteousness: this he calls his "own," because performed by him, and wrought out in his own strength; and which he had an high opinion of, as if it was perfect and blameless; and which he had before put his trust and confidence in; as also to distinguish it from another's righteousness, even that which he had in Christ: he moreover calls it, "the righteousness which is of the law"; which the law required, and he performed in obedience to it, seeking for justification by it; this character distinguishes it from the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the Gospel, and is manifested without the law: and this his own legal righteousness he did not desire to "have," and to be found in; not but that he desired to live soberly and righteously, to have, and do works of righteousness, but not depend on them; he would not have, and account this his moral righteousness, as a justifying one; he knew it was imperfect, filthy, and unprofitable, and that by it he could not be justified and saved, therefore he desired to have another.

Lulav · Jan 10, 2023

WordSword said:
True it is, that righteousness cannot come from the Law because it only condemns.

John said: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

King David said:

"I hate and abhor lying: but thy law (Torah) do I love."
"I delight in Your commandments because I love them."
"I gain understanding from Your precepts; therefore I hate every false way."
"I hate double-minded people, but I love your law."
"Because I love your commands more than gold"

97 Oh, how I love Your law! (TORAH) It is my meditation all the day.
98 You, through Your commandments, (TORAH) make me wiser than my enemies; For they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers, For Your testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the ancients ,Because I keep Your precepts.(commandment, precept, statute)
101 I have restrained my feet from every evil way, That I may keep Your word.
102 I have not departed from Your judgments, (ordinances) For You Yourself have taught me.
103 How sweet are Your words to my taste, Sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through Your precepts (commandment, precept, statute) I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.

fhansen · Jan 11, 2023

Lulav said:
John said: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

King David said:

"I hate and abhor lying: but thy law (Torah) do I love."

"I delight in Your commandments because I love them."

"I gain understanding from Your precepts; therefore I hate every false way."

"I hate double-minded people, but I love your law."

"Because I love your commands more than gold"

97 Oh, how I love Your law! (TORAH) It is my meditation all the day.
98 You, through Your commandments, (TORAH) make me wiser than my enemies; For they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers, For Your testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the ancients ,Because I keep Your precepts.(commandment, precept, statute)
101 I have restrained my feet from every evil way, That I may keep Your word.
102 I have not departed from Your judgments, (ordinances) For You Yourself have taught me.
103 How sweet are Your words to my taste, Sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through Your precepts (commandment, precept, statute) I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.

Yes, the law is right, it’s holy, good, and spiritual as Rom 7 tells us. We were created to fulfill it but cannot, except by the power, the grace, the Spirit, of God as we enter fellowship with Him by faith. That union is a game-changer, because then He fulfills the law in us, the right way; He puts it in our minds and writes it on our hearts through a work of His, as we begin to love as He does.

WordSword · Jan 11, 2023

Lulav said:
John said: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

King David said:

"I hate and abhor lying: but thy law (Torah) do I love."

Hi, and thanks for the reply! The unbelieving world lies in "lawlessness," being without God and there is no other choice for those who continue so. This of course always includes the majority of mankind (Mat 7:13, 14). Though the Law showed God's desire for Israel, it could only condemn because it wasn't meant to be kept by man but by Christ, to show His qualification for sacrifice.

God bless!

WordSword · Jan 11, 2023

fhansen said:
Yes, the law is right, it’s holy, good, and spiritual as Rom 7 tells us. We were created to fulfill it but cannot, except by the power, the grace, the Spirit, of God as we enter fellowship with Him by faith. That union is a game-changer, because then He fulfills the law in us, the right way; He puts it in our minds and writes it on our hearts through a work of His, as we begin to love as He does.

God knew Israel wouldn't be able to keep the Law; but He brought them (an us) to repentance and forgiveness anyway, because they are His chosen people; and will finally bring them to fellowship with Him during the Millennium. Of course, the Law was only to Israel and not anyone else. It's the Gospel to everyone else, after the Jew first.

fhansen · Jan 11, 2023

WordSword said:
God knew Israel wouldn't be able to keep the Law; but He brought them (an us) to repentance and forgiveness anyway, because they are His chosen people; and will finally bring them to fellowship with Him during the Millennium. Of course, the Law was only to Israel and not anyone else. It's the Gospel to everyone else, after the Jew first.

We're all born lawless so from the beginning and to this day the church has considered the moral law as set forth in the ten commandments particularly to apply to all, reflecting the law that God originally inscribed in man's heart at creation. We're not totally blind to this "natural law" but Adam's act of disobedience was a bid to make his own law, denying the authority of God to do so for him IOW. That's where we find ourselves as we enter this world. To the exent that we're alienated from God we're interiorly distanced from His voice, and therefore His law, and born with a preference for that separation as it were. I like how Augustine put it:
"God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart."

WordSword · Jan 11, 2023

fhansen said:
We're all born lawless so from the beginning and to this day the church has considered the moral law as set forth in the ten commandments particularly to apply to all, reflecting the law that God originally inscribed in man's heart at creation. We're not totally blind to this "natural law" but Adam's act of disobedience was a bid to make his own law, denying the authority of God to do so for him IOW. That's where we find ourselves as we enter this world. To the exent that we're alienated from God we're interiorly distanced from His voice, and therefore His law, and born with a preference for that separation as it were. I like how Augustine put it:
"God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart."

Hi, and thanks for the reply and comments! Christians go beyond the Law (which was for Israel only). The Jew was forgiven with the priestly sin sacrificial ordinances (Num 15:25); and the obedience was gratitude and love for God. Christians do not sin intentionally but only impulsively (e.g. excessive anger, jealousy, envy, etc.) due to His "work in us" (Phl 2:13).

fhansen · Jan 11, 2023

WordSword said:
Hi, and thanks for the reply and comments! Christians go beyond the Law (which was for Israel only). The Jew was forgiven with the priestly sin sacrificial ordinances (Num 15:25); and the obedience was gratitude and love for God. Christians do not sin intentionally but only impulsively (e.g. excessive anger, jealousy, envy, etc.) due to His "work in us" (Phl 2:13).

Ok, I'm not sure what that means though. Is there any limit to how sinful a Christian can be now, while still retaining his justified-and therefore saved- status before God? Is there any solution to sin; is the believer more free from it now, freer to do good?

WordSword · Jan 11, 2023

fhansen said:
Ok, I'm not sure what that means though. Is there any limit to how sinful a Christian can be now, while still retaining his justified-and therefore saved- status before God? Is there any solution to sin; is the believer more free from it now, freer to do good?

Actually, a Christian is not sinful, nor is there any Scripture that says that the righteousness are sinners, though they still sin, but not intentionally. Though the sin nature is in us, we are not in the sin nature (Rom 8:9). Obedience shows we love God, but our sins are forgiven through Christ's sacrifice.

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