Why don’t Protestants like the Crucifix, and some the cross

Ceallaigh · Dec 24, 2022

prodromos said:
I have a suspicion that what passes for worship in many Protestant Churches is what Traditional Churches would consider little more than veneration. When I was visiting my parents some years ago, I went along with them to their Church service on the Sunday morning, only to experience what I would consider a fellowship gathering, not worship. So I suspect that when some Protestants see veneration of Saints and relics in Traditional Churches, they immediately see it as 'worship'.

Worship in most Protestant churches consists of singing several songs. Some are scripture put to music and some are songs written by composers. Like "Amazing Grace" for example. This is followed and or proceeded by a time of group prayer. Both prayer for needs that have been brought up and everyone praying their own thoughts and needs.

Anything involving veneration of saints and relics is an unknown concept.

The idea of Roman Catholics worshiping mainly comes into play with Protestants seeing Roman Catholics bowing to a statue of Mary and also praying to Mary.

I emphasize Roman Catholic, because I don't think most American Protestants know much of anything about Eastern Orthodox practices. Whereas Roman Catholic practices are shown in movies and TV shows all the time. Plus many like myself know or are related to those who are RC and have attended mass at least once as a guest.

Ceallaigh · Dec 24, 2022

This looks like worshipping to them:

prodromos · Dec 24, 2022

I'

Carl Emerson said:
Sounds better, can you post a picture?

I've done a bit of a search online and couldn't find a decent example, I'll take a photo of ours when I have a chance and post it later.

Daniel Peres · Dec 24, 2022

MMXX said:
Worship in most Protestant churches consists of singing several songs. Some are scripture put to music and some are songs written by composers. Like "Amazing Grace" for example. This is followed and or proceeded by a time of group prayer. Both prayer for needs that have been brought up and everyone praying their own thoughts and needs.

Anything involving veneration of saints and relics is an unknown concept.

The idea of Roman Catholics worshiping mainly comes into play with Protestants seeing Roman Catholics bowing to a statue of Mary and also praying to Mary.

I emphasize Roman Catholic, because I don't think most American Protestants know much of anything about Eastern Orthodox practices. Whereas Roman Catholic practices are shown in movies and TV shows all the time. Plus many like myself know or are related to those who are RC and have attended mass at least once as a guest.

For Catholics, singing scripture-based songs and praying are not worship. Even the Catholic practice of venerating saints and relics is not worship. It’s the sacrifice of the liturgy/Mass that is worship. So, just as many Protestants honestly believe Catholics worship statues, many Catholics look at Protestant churches as merely prayer halls with no worship. Both are honest perceptions but not really based on what Protestants and Catholics are actually doing in the Sunday services.

Ceallaigh · Dec 24, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
For Catholics, singing scripture-based songs and praying are not worship. Even the Catholic practice of venerating saints and relics is not worship. It’s the sacrifice of the liturgy/Mass that is worship. So, just as many Protestants honestly believe Catholics worship statues, many Catholics look at Protestant churches as merely prayer halls with no worship. Both are honest perceptions but not really based on what Protestants and Catholics are actually doing in the Sunday services.

I've been to Mass. In my experience it's different, but not that different. Mainline Protestant services I've attended such as Lutheran and Methodist are more liturgical and closer to Catholic Mass.

Yekcidmij · Dec 24, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
Many Protestants seem to dislike crucifixes, so they only use crosses. Now, it seems like the more modern Protestants don’t even like crosses in their churches either.

There's a cross front and center of our church - rather large in fact. Depends on what Protestant church you go to - Protestant churches aren't uniform. A previous church I attended had a gigantic LED screen, which I thought was over the top and tacky. You can probably categorize Protestant churches very broadly into "high church" (ie, more liturgical, traditional, and formal) and "low church' (less liturgy and tradition, if any, and less formality, more praise bands, screens, etc..)

PsaltiChrysostom · Dec 24, 2022

prodromos said:
I'

I've done a bit of a search online and couldn't find a decent example, I'll take a photo of ours when I have a chance and post it later.

Merry Christmas!

Here is my church's processional cross.
Resurrection side for Sundays and Paschal (Easter season)

Crucifixion side (for weekdays and outside of Pascha)

Hazelelponi · Dec 24, 2022

Michael Collum said:
The symbol of the cross was not adopted as a Christian one until no one had witnessed a crucifixion. It was originally a symbol of of the Roman legion to intimidate people into saying Caesar is Lord or die.

So it is possibly that historical reflection that lead to that conclusion. Though the "More Modern" protestant churches may be second reformation, (i.e. not enough Catholic stuff was removed last time, type deal) and not the protestants you may be referring to.

My husband constantly says that - " They didn't go far enough", when speaking of the Lutherans and the Presbyterians. (He's Primitive Baptist and the family church is practically in our driveway - I lean more toward Particular Baptist I think)

But I agree for the most part. I personally feel more uncomfortable around icons and the like.

I have considered the fish though, since early Christians seemed to use that. That doesn't bother me and I would wear a fish necklace to point to my faith.

Valletta · Dec 24, 2022

MMXX said:
The idea of Roman Catholics worshiping mainly comes into play with Protestants seeing Roman Catholics bowing to a statue of Mary and also praying to Mary.

Catholics don't bow to a statue, there are many pious Catholics who pray a lot and we kneel a lot when praying. There may be kneelers at statues or, for example, at tombs at the Vatican, one level above where St. Peter's remains were found there are tombs of the popes, and there are kneelers there to pray. We might pray for the popes or pray for an intercession by a pope. If we know a person is a saint then we would ask for an intercessory prayer on our or someone else's behalf, as Saint Augustine said: "For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended.” Sermon 159, 1 This practice of asking saints to pray for us was dropped by so many Protestants during reformation times, even though the Bible is clear we are to pray for one another.

Clare73 · Dec 24, 2022

prodromos said:
I have a suspicion that what passes for worship in many Protestant Churches is what Traditional Churches would consider little more than veneration. When I was visiting my parents some years ago, I went along with them to their Church service on the Sunday morning, only to experience what I would consider a fellowship gathering, not worship. So I suspect that when some Protestants see veneration of Saints and relics in Traditional Churches, they immediately see it as 'worship'.

Protestants worship in prayer and praise (music) in their fellowship gathering (assembly).

Valletta · Dec 24, 2022

Clare73 said:
Protestants worship in prayer and praise (music) in their fellowship gathering (assembly).

One can see there are multiple definitions for worship.

Clare73 · Dec 24, 2022

Valletta said:
One can see there are multiple definitions for worship.

In addition to prayer and praise, it would include acknowledgement of God, of his nature, attributes, ways and claims, thanksgiving, service to him, etc.

Carl Emerson · Dec 24, 2022

prodromos said:
I'

I've done a bit of a search online and couldn't find a decent example, I'll take a photo of ours when I have a chance and post it later.

Cool Thanks..

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 24, 2022

Brother-Mike said:
Count me as one who is perfectly fine with crosses without idolization and simultaneously agrees that, as stated above, the cross is empty.

The gospel accounts have a cross with the Lord crucified upon it, there is little said, after the Lord is taken down from it, of an empty cross. The great event that is the climax of the gospel stories is the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection of the Lord. Burial and resurrection come only after death upon the cross, so, it is fitting that the Church remember the Paschal mystery with the crucifix and the risen Lord. An empty cross is insufficient to tell the story.

As is said in the mass and at every remembrance of the last supper, "this is my body broken for you", the crucifix shows the broken body which the faithful eat and it shows the blood which the faithful drink.

Akita Suggagaki · Dec 24, 2022

MMXX said:
This looks like worshipping to them:

I agree that is what it might look like. But appearances are deceiving. These people do not worship concrete. They venerate and pray to who it represents.

Ceallaigh · Dec 24, 2022

Valletta said:
Catholics don't bow to a statue, there are many pious Catholics who pray a lot and we kneel a lot when praying. There may be kneelers at statues or, for example, at tombs at the Vatican, one level above where St. Peter's remains were found there are tombs of the popes, and there are kneelers there to pray. We might pray for the popes or pray for an intercession by a pope. If we know a person is a saint then we would ask for an intercessory prayer on our or someone else's behalf, as Saint Augustine said: "For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended.” Sermon 159, 1 This practice of asking saints to pray for us was dropped by so many Protestants during reformation times, even though the Bible is clear we are to pray for one another.

I've found scores of pictures of people on their knees before a solitary statue of Mary, and It really does give the appearance that she is being worshipped. As for the practice of praying to saints being dropped, that leads to the question of when it was picked up. Protestants are Christians who feel that Christianity took on extrabiblical rituals some centuries down the road, and decided to go back to before all that and adhere more to what scripture clearly dictates. Protistans definitely very much believe in praying for one another. But that's praying to the Father in the name of the Son with the intersession of the Holy Spirit. As is clearly described and defined throughout scripture.

Brother-Mike · Dec 24, 2022

Xeno.of.athens said:
The gospel accounts have a cross with the Lord crucified upon it, there is little said, after the Lord is taken down from it, of an empty cross. The great event that is the climax of the gospel stories is the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection of the Lord. Burial and resurrection come only after death upon the cross, so, it is fitting that the Church remember the Paschal mystery with the crucifix and the risen Lord. An empty cross is insufficient to tell the story.

As is said in the mass and at every remembrance of the last supper, "this is my body broken for you", the crucifix shows the broken body which the faithful eat and it shows the blood which the faithful drink.

While I don’t disagree with any of your points here, I would also point out that there is no mention of Jesus’ actual cross - or the spear, or the tomb, or his clothes, or the nails - after his death and resurrection. No scramble by his apostles or followers to obtain these items. No mention of any sacred or relic nature of these objects. No mention of Paul or any of the other first century apostles and evangelists using any of these as props or evidence in their missions.

An oversight by the biblical authors? Perhaps.

Or maybe an indication that these are only things, only creations, and the true accomplishment of Jesus had nothing to do with worshipping fetishes.

Ceallaigh · Dec 24, 2022

Akita Suggagaki said:
I agree that is what it might look like. But appearances are deceiving. These people do not worship concrete. They venerate and pray to who it represents.

Venerate is a synonym of worship. Those who worshiped idols weren't worshiping the materials the idol image was made of, but rather who the idol image represented.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 24, 2022

Hazelelponi said:
My husband constantly says that - " They didn't go far enough", when speaking of the Lutherans and the Presbyterians. (He's Primitive Baptist and the family church is practically in our driveway - I lean more toward Particular Baptist I think)

But I agree for the most part. I personally feel more uncomfortable around icons and the like.

I have considered the fish though, since early Christians seemed to use that. That doesn't bother me and I would wear a fish necklace to point to my faith.

yeah, the fish would point to the underground meetings, so that's a very historical symbol used by the original church.

Ceallaigh · Dec 24, 2022

I'm seeing a trend here in pointing that Protestants don't do this and that. They don't have crucifixes, they don't venerate and pray to Mary and the Saints and relics etc.

But so far I haven't seen in being said that Protistans aren't doing what's clearly spelled out in scripture. What commandment of Jesus are they breaking in not being into the things mentioned above? What clear guidelines of Paul are they not following in not being into the things mentioned above?

So far it seems that they're just not going along with rituals, practices and traditions that were added to Christianity hundreds of years after the first century.

Why don’t Protestants like the Crucifix, and some the cross

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